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Post by kds on Jan 6, 2023 17:55:47 GMT
For worse
The big one for me is probably Sunflower. When I first heard Sunflower in 2012, I was pretty bowled over by it. For a time, I even considered it better than Pet Sounds (an album I probably should've mentioned in changed for the better as it took me several years to finally admit that it's one of the greatest albums in history).
But, the more I listened to it, the more the flaws presented themselves. I still think it's a really good to great album, and perhaps the ultimate "whole > sum of its parts" album for a band that has several.
Love You. I have never loved this album. But, when I first heard it, I kinda liked it. On my first listen, I'd have probably rated it a six. But, as the years went by, my opinion lessened on each listen, to the point where I'd consider it the worst album by the band if SIP and S&S didn't exist.
No Pier Pressure. I loved this album in the spring and summer of 2015. Even tolerating some of the guest stars that weren't my cup of tea. I still enjoy it, but not like I did when it was first released. I guess the novelty wore off.
Edit - Also Dennis's Pacific Ocean Blue. The first couple times I listened to it, I thought "This is the best BB related album since Holland, the best solo album from any of the Boys," you know the stuff you typically hear about POB, from both BB diehards and even music writers. But, I don't know, I think I've realized that a little Dennis goes a long way, and when I listen to the album now, I tend to be Dennis'ed out by the end of it. I still think it's a well done album. But, where as I once rated it a 9, I'm probably about a 7 right now.
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Post by jk on Jan 7, 2023 11:10:05 GMT
Like sockit , I'm reverting to the "changed for the better" segment for this one: This must be familiar territory for those who were around at the time. Having bought Pet Sounds in '67, and being aware of the big buildup being given to its successor, I invested in Smiley Smile as soon as was released later that year. Non-plussed by the album title as I was, I was utterly bewildered by what I heard. Its two sides began with a complex song and then veered off in an entirely different direction, as if those two were official performances and the rest was backstage noodling! It took me three months to get to grips with this strange album -- and then I loved it, and have done ever since. A defining moment in my appreciation of SS was trudging uphill through the snow to my work that winter with its new songs running through my head.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 7, 2023 12:46:03 GMT
As you guys know, I'm a fan of Christmas music. And, like many of you, I grew up and spent several Christmases with the same handful of Christmas albums. And that was a good thing! That's what built family Christmas memories, and I cherish them. Now, in my case, those handful of Christmas albums were a bit on the older side - Perry Como Sings Merry Christmas Music, Mario Lanza Sings Christmas Carols, Sammy Kaye Christmas Day, and others. My family/I never really expanded on that small batch of Christmas albums...until The Beach Boys' Christmas Album. And that was my doing.
I discovered The Beach Boys' Christmas Album fairly early in my Beach Boys' fandom, and I liked it very much. Obviously "Little Saint Nick" was the highlight, and "We Three Kings", "Frosty The Snowman", and "White Christmas" were keepers, too. I mean, those four songs alone were enough to...like...the album. Brian Wilson's vocals alone were special. I believe they are among the best and most underrated of his career. I could kind of get into "the fast side". Yes, the BB formula - and that's what those fast songs are - are nice. So, the Christmas album worked its way into our family Christmas, whether they wanted it or not. Seriously, I made a point to give it its share of spins every Christmas season.
50 years later? Not so much. Now, one reason is that I expanded my Christmas music catalogue extensively. There is so much more music to listen to. But, honestly, I've become more critical of The Beach Boys' Christmas Album. There are two basic reasons. The first is the sequencing. I'm just not a fan of that fast side/slow side philosophy (also employed on the follow-up album, Today!). Frankly, Side 2 can turn into a snoozefest. One slow song after another. But the second reason has more to do with the faster, original compositions. Nevermind that they are barely Christmasey (pun intended), but I question how good they really are. They sound underproduced and not creatively arranged. They are almost stripped. Oh, they're OK, probably good, and I certainly like parts of all of the songs. Any 1964 songs written by Brian Wilson and sung by Mike Love and the guys are going to have some merit. But I'll ask this question - What if "Merry Christmas Baby", "The Man With All The Toys", "Christmas Day", and "Santa's Beard" appeared on All Summer Song or The Beach Boys' Today!? I'll even go back to Little Deuce Coupe and Shut Down Vol. 2 - with different lyrics of course. Would they be highlights or even among the better songs on those albums?
Maybe for years I was probably subconsciously frustrated with The Beach Boys' Christmas Album because of what it was NOT, and that would be A Christmas Gift For You From Phil Spector. I don't have a big problem with Dick Reynolds' arrangements on the slow songs, though I think Brian could've (should've ) used The Wrecking Crew for the arranging. But, those fast songs...were they quickies? Is that the sound Brian really wanted? For a Christmas album? Hey, where were the sleigh bells? And "Jingle Bells"? "Sleigh Ride"? "Winter Wonderland" anyone?
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 7, 2023 13:25:19 GMT
It almost pains me to mention the first album that comes to mind for me in terms of a diminishing opinion, because it's one that I continue to champion, to a certain extent ... a guy's gotta counterbalance Sheriff John Stone's negativity on this one! But seriously, it is with a heavy heart, as overdramatic as this sounds. Brian Wilson Presents Smile. Younger or newer fans have to remember, this was the first actual, complete presentation of Smile. Before that, we had some Smile material that had been officially released either on studio albums or later comps; and we had some boots of varying sound quality; and we had holes. There were fan mixes galore using (mostly) this same cache of material, but with different tracks included or excluded, and different sequencing. It was a really fun thing to puzzle over, but there was no answer. (That might have been what made it fun, frustrating as it was.) And then Brian was apparently becoming more comfortable touring with this fantastic (relatively) young band. And then he was going to perform the music of Smile. And then he did it! I heard it live in Glasgow in March, then again in Minneapolis in September just two days after the album was released. While there was typical bickering among fans--" they used synth harpsichords!"--I thought it was great, a tremendous achievement, and amazingly well performed. Sure, there were production sleights of hand with the higher-registered vocals that Brian couldn't hit decently anymore, and some people didn't like what they thought was a lack of passion, or too professional delivery. It lacked the darkness of the original, they said. Well, I didn't care. I thought it was great, and it was surely better than my, or anyone else's, fan mixes of incomplete source material and subpar sound quality. But in the 15+ years since, I do have to admit that things have changed. I think there are two separate, major threads of my history that have made me see the album in a lesser light than I did in 2004 or 2005. First, The Smile Sessions were released in 2011. That meant we had high quality versions of not only several of those previously unreleased tracks, but we had many, many versions and components. It was not perfect because it still lacked the parts the BW Band filled in to complete the work seven years prior, but on the other hand it had the original, youthful voices of the Beach Boys and the original (meaning not just first in this sequence, but meaning groundbreaking--the inspiration Brian had that created this whole cult) production. Still, it almost certainly wouldn't have happened without BWPS, and it somewhat awkwardly used that modern template to present the material. In a way, it diminished both versions: one could lay claim to being the original, but it was incomplete and presented in imitation; the other was the first completed version and was released (in its completeness) first, but was imitative of the original session material and sung by a greatly diminished mastermind. Second, my taste in music has changed dramatically, moving toward concise pop songs over so-called experimental or avant garde music. If, in 2004, I had very little time for the likes of "I Get Around" or "Mona," today I have less patience for "Barnyard" or "Do You Like Worms?" I still really appreciate Brian Wilson Presents Smile. I still really like Brian Wilson Presents Smile. But it's no longer the near-perfect album I thought it was in 2004.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 7, 2023 13:53:08 GMT
It almost pains me to mention the first album that comes to mind for me in terms of a diminishing opinion, because it's one that I continue to champion, to a certain extent ... a guy's gotta counterbalance Sheriff John Stone 's negativity on this one! But seriously, it is with a heavy heart, as overdramatic as this sounds. Brian Wilson Presents Smile. Ha Ha! I can safely say that Brian Wilson Presents Smile is the one BB-related album where my opinion has not changed one bit over the years.
Just making conversation here. That's what the thread is for, right? And I won't go into detail which I have previously done ad nauseam.
I had no problem, absolutely no problem, with Brian performing the SMiLE songs in concert in any sequence or configuration. I wouldn't have cared if he included "Luau" in the setlist! I was a big fan of those 2004 Smile concerts. I was going nuts like all Beach Boys/Brian Wilson fans. I was glued to the message boards. I read the reviews. I scoured all of my sources for bootlegs of the concerts. It was all good.
My problem(s) with Brian Wilson Presents Smile was/is this. It was only when Brian Wilson proclaimed Smile finished (it couldn't be finished, especially by a 2004 Brian Wilson), went into the studio and re-recorded the songs (inferior to the original recordings), and, in effect, made Brian Wilson Presents Smile the actual, legal, finished, current, legitimate album that would serve as the representation or home of those 1966-67 songs. I found it offensive, blasphemous, and an abuse of those otherworldly 1966-67 SMiLE songs.
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
Posts: 520
Likes: 532
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Post by Emdeeh on Jan 7, 2023 14:13:47 GMT
Sheriff, my problem with BWPS is similar. I love the live performance of Smile, but it lost something in translation to the studio recording.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 7, 2023 14:34:34 GMT
I think my problem is I both agree and disagree with you two--or at least I agree with the premise to some extent, but just don't carry it as far as a conclusion. I agree that the original Beach Boys' version would have been far superior, but that has been unattainable for decades already. And I even agree that the live shows had an energy that couldn't be recaptured on the studio version. (That might be partly because many of us experienced those live shows first, and as is often the case with concert recordings, it doesn't live up to the original. Of course I realize BWPS wasn't a recording of a live show, but the tracks were recorded basically live in the studio, as I recall, as opposed to the track-by-track, even note-by-note modern alternative.)
For me, though, that was never fatal. And especially considering the lack of an alternative of an original Beach Boys' version, I felt it was almost disrespectful. (I don't mean that as a criticism of either of you, or others who held the opinion, but the opinion itself. I hope that makes sense.) Here we had the only completed version of Smile--and it was good!--and somehow we fans were complaining. For me, good enough was good enough. It would have been easier either to fully and strongly disagree with the points of fans like yourselves, or to agree with you to a greater extent. Instead, I agreed on some particulars but not the overall thrust or spirit of it all.
But as I said, I have lost some feeling for it, for the reasons mentioned above.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 7, 2023 14:48:00 GMT
I meant to comment on this, too: Just making conversation here. That's what the thread is for, right? Absolutely, that's what this thread is for! I enjoy when people just list their picks, sure. It's interesting. But for me, it's the thinking behind opinions and the stories from people's lives that are interesting. Otherwise it's the sort of thing a person could just capture on a spreadsheet, just kind of a game of categorization or averages. That's just not as interesting to me as are stories. So please don't apologize, that kind of "diversion" is the whole point, as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by kds on Jan 7, 2023 14:59:02 GMT
Over my years on various BB boards, I've found there are some fans that just cannot be pleased. Not by two official versions of Smile. Not by tons of archival material. Not by a greatest hits comp where the songs sound a little different.
The lack of the Eeyore type fans is one of my favorite things about this board. We all have our various gripes about the Boys, and honestly, no real fan should be all positive all the time. But, I feel there's more balance here.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 7, 2023 15:19:13 GMT
For me, though, that was never fatal. And especially considering the lack of an alternative of an original Beach Boys' version, I felt it was almost disrespectful. (I don't mean that as a criticism of either of you, or others who held the opinion, but the opinion itself. I hope that makes sense.) Here we had the only completed version of Smile-- and it was good!--and somehow we fans were complaining. For me, good enough was good enough. It would have been easier either to fully and strongly disagree with the points of fans like yourselves, or to agree with you to a greater extent. Instead, I agreed on some particulars but not the overall thrust or spirit of it all. And that issue is the basis for my biggest objection. Brian Wilson Presents Smile is NOT a completed version. It is specifically a studio recording - almost entirely note-for-note and word-for-word - of a concert setlist/performance. To me that is not "completed", and I don't think it's a semantics thing. Brian Wilson can say repeatedly - and did - that he finished Smile. And I say "bullshit".
Everything - EVERYTHING - I read about the 2004 Smile concerts, from Brian Wilson to Darian Sahanaja to even Jeff Foskett, was that the 2004 live Smile setlist/sequence was assembled and arranged FOR A LIVE PERFORMANCE. Period. Nothing else. It was never purported to be THE Smile album. Never. It was a concert setlist and performance. No more, no less. Oh, it was good, there's no denying that. I actually like a lot of the sequence, and use some of it on my own Smile mixes. But I'll say again. It was not intended to be or become the COMPLETED Smile.
And then it was. Why? Because Brian Wilson said so. Oh, then it must be true. We know Brian always tells the truth about his music. Well, that must be the biggest coincidence in the history of popular music, or any kind of music. Brian and Darian and company assemble a bunch of Smile songs for a live performance, and then just by coincidence, months later, Brian proclaims that exact configuration, exact arrangement, and exact production as the finished Smile. Really? So, tell me, Brian. Why didn't you say that IN THE FIRST PLACE? Before the first 2004 Smile concert, why didn't Brian say that he was performing the finished Smile? Because it wasn't finished, that's why! Brian proclaimed it finished months later, right around the time he was going into the studio to record it. Gee, what a coincidence.
It couldn't be that Brian and his wifeandmanagers were looking for a way to revive a sagging solo career and piggybacked on the wildly popular 2004 concerts. Hey, it worked! Records were sold, praise was everywhere, and Grammy awards were handed out. Congratulations. But, as Michael Corleone said, "Don't insult my intelligence because it makes me very angry." Don't tell me that Brian ever intended for Smile to be sequenced like Brian Wilson Presents Smile, or that he would employ the overlapping of songs instead of fades, or that he would deviate from a 12-song separate tracks format and go with three suites, and on and on. And please don't tell me that Brian finished it or it is a legitimately completed studio album version of Smile. I don't believe you...or him.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 7, 2023 15:28:41 GMT
And again, I have to agree with you on the basic fact, but not the conclusions. I 100% agree that leading up to the shows, it was clarified that this was not Smile, but rather a live presentation of Smile material. That's what they said. And then they released an album that, as I recall, at the time still wasn't said to be Smile, but a studio version of the BWPS presentation. It's only as time went on that the narrative seemed to shift into that album being Smile versus the nuance of a studio presentation of a concert presentation of that material.
(I'm not sure whether, or how definitively and often, Brian himself or his official camp have said that was Smile, versus journalists, fans, and such. But that's another story.)
But while I agree on that above paragraph, it still was the first completed presentation of Smile material. Since there was no Smile before it, that became in essence the first and only real Smile. There was no previous Smile to compare it to and judge it missing the mark in terms of what it was (and here I don't mean performance or quality, but material and sequencing). There wasn't a Smile until 2004; there were hundreds or thousands of imagined Smiles.
If that ^ is true, then to me the motivations behind it, or the quality of it, barely matter for my disagreement with you. However and why-ever it came about, however it was marketed, however good or bad it was, it was the first officially released, complete and coherent set of Smile material. That it doesn't mirror what the guy might have done in 1967 in motivation, material, sequence, or quality is irrelevant for that fact.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 7, 2023 16:06:51 GMT
And again, I have to agree with you on the basic fact, but not the conclusions. I 100% agree that leading up to the shows, it was clarified that this was not Smile, but rather a live presentation of Smile material. That's what they said. And then they released an album that, as I recall, at the time still wasn't said to be Smile, but a studio version of the BWPS presentation. It's only as time went on that the narrative seemed to shift into that album being Smile versus the nuance of a studio presentation of a concert presentation of that material. (I'm not sure whether, or how definitively and often, Brian himself or his official camp have said that was Smile, versus journalists, fans, and such. But that's another story.) But while I agree on that above paragraph, it still was the first completed presentation of Smile material. Since there was no Smile before it, that became in essence the first and only real Smile. There was no previous Smile to compare it to and judge it missing the mark in terms of what it was (and here I don't mean performance or quality, but material and sequencing). There wasn't a Smile until 2004; there were hundreds or thousands of imagined Smiles. If that ^ is true, then to me the motivations behind it, or the quality of it, barely matter for my disagreement with you. However and why-ever it came about, however it was marketed, however good or bad it was, it was the first officially released, complete and coherent set of Smile material. That it doesn't mirror what the guy might have done in 1967 in motivation, material, sequence, or quality is irrelevant for that fact. And I'll end with this to avoid beating the proverbial dead horse...
It's those words or terms - completed, finished, officially released, etc. - that I have my biggest problems with. First, I just wish they would've released BWPS as a live CD (with or without overdubs, sweetening, and re-recording vocals - I don't care). I would've been totally happy with something like that, a live album, and I was mildly surprised it wasn't released in that format. Or even - and I have to be careful here - if they would've just said something like, "Hey, we had such a blast performing the Smile songs live, we thought we'd go into the studio and record the whole thing for ya. That's all. Enjoy." But then the next thing you know, it became the actual completed Smile, Brian finally finished it, there's a DVD about the making of the album, and all the dressings. Yes, they dressed up the thing like it was really THE Smile. Ugh.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 7, 2023 16:13:36 GMT
And I'll end like this: to some degree, I think we--not just you and I, but any and all serious fans/listeners--simply divide up the situation, the issue, the album differently.
There are so many angles from which to look at it (the sequential history, the music itself, the performances themselves, the marketing and promotion of the concerts and of the album, the changing narratives about the aforementioned, group dynamics, etc.) that will naturally influence each of us, that each conclusion or answer may well be the conclusion or answer to a different set or subset of problems or questions!
That's why we fans can sometimes seem to talk past one another, and even get frustrated with one another for "not getting it." Just as I argue there was no Smile before BWPS concerts, there is no single "it" to get!
(Apologies to anyone who finds this tedious. Personally, I often enjoy this sort of engagement on points of disagreement. And hey, it's on topic, more or less.)
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sockit
The Surfer Moon
Posts: 234
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Post by sockit on Jan 7, 2023 17:38:00 GMT
As usual, I'm a bit late to the conversation, but here's my 2 cents.....
BWPS would be my choice for the latest incarnation of this thread (good to worse). I had forgotten about BWPS. With all due respect to the artists, that's how little the album means to me these days. Not that it's a bad album; it's a great album. I respect it immensely, but I actually haven't listened to it in about a decade.
When BWPS was released (and the couple of years leading up to it), there was literally excitement in the air. I was hanging out a bit with Bob Hanes and he would update me with any of the latest news on the SMiLE resurrection. I never made it to any of the live shows, and I've always regretted that, as I probably would have been even more excited. I remember listening to an online stream of--I think it was the first performance--and I was blown away. For the first time in my life I got to hear the complete "finished" SMiLE. History had been made!
When BWPS hit the shelves (back when CDs were still sold in stores where I lived) I bought 3--one for me and two to give to friends as gifts, and I special ordered the Lp for my vinyl collection.
For me, BWPS took a back seat when TSS came out, followed by some excellent fanmixes (one particular one which is my definitive SMiLE to this day). BWPS, as I've said, is great, but the issue with me is that it just doesn't have that surreal atmosphere of the original 1966-67 tracks. I don't think it ever could in contemporary times. It's hard to explain but there is something sort of....um....mystical?....about the original recordings.
So for those reasons, for me BWPS was once the bomb, but I've been over it for several years. Kinda sad, but it collects dust in my castle.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 7, 2023 17:52:11 GMT
When BWPS hit the shelves (back when CDs were still sold in stores where I lived) I bought 3--one for me and two to give to friends as gifts I did the exact same thing! I was an evangelist in those days. "You don't like it? I'm going to make you like it, damnit!"
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