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Post by Kapitan on Feb 18, 2020 14:47:22 GMT
Some Shoutbox discussion about changing opinions, either over time or from interacting with other people, brought the idea for this thread. Before I get to the heart of the question, I have to say this: I think pride in consistency of opinion is one of the silliest things as relates to music. Over the years I’ve seen it time and again, “I’ve ALWAYS loved this,” or “you say you like/hate this, but I remember when you used to hate/like it!” On opinions, it’s just entirely silly. It’s not better or worse to have thought, A, B, Y, or Z, whether consistently or inconsistently. It’s just not a value judgment. And on factual matters, assessments of history for example, as long as the changes of mind are based on solid evidence, well then that’s for the best: it’s better to have been wrong and now be more right than it is to be consistent in your (wrong) understanding of something. So, without further ado… What are some of the bigger or more notable instances of you changing your mind over the years, and what brought them about? (I’ve got a few of my own in mind and I’ll share them later today.)
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Post by kds on Feb 18, 2020 15:03:45 GMT
I guess the biggest for me is my becoming such a big Beach Boys fan during the summer of 2012. As a kid and into young adulthood, I was always pretty indifferent to The Beach Boys, outside of their Christmas material. I didn't dislike it, but I didn't go out of my way to listen to it either. Then, when I looked for some more summertime flavored music to listen to in my mid 20s, I bought Sounds of Summer, and was even only a casual fan at best until seeing them live in 2012.
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Post by jk on Feb 18, 2020 18:34:29 GMT
I'd known the Boys' music since 1963 but it was only after seeing Brian at the "Party at the Palace" in 2002 and then reading Wouldn't It Be Nice that I was smitten. Actually a tiny bit later... the song that pushed me all the way into BB adulation was "All I Wanna Do", after WIBN had mentioned Sunflower (What? Never heard of it!), which I found was half of a twofer with Surf's Up, whose second side I knew and loved--and which I consequently bought. And the rest is etc. What I mean is, that any actual changes of opinion I had about BB music were post-2002. Everything I'd heard before then fascinated me--and still does. My two big turnarounds on the albums front were Love You and Friends--the first through the enthusiasm of online folks like yourselves and the second thanks to a SWD video thingie. As for the BB as a whole, I used to draw a line at what I thought was their peak and after that wasn't too important at all--as if they had morphed into a completely different band. This line originally began (believe it or not!) after Pet Sounds, later relaxed to include first Surf's Up and then Holland. It took a long long time for me to regard anything they did after that as being by the band I loved. It was Love You that broke down that final barrier. That said, I still have very little patience with their solo albums, save for POB, BW88 and OCA.SMiLE is another matter entirely. I'd given up on SMiLE as simply too daunting a project (not least because of the hundreds of online pages devoted to it at one forum in particular) and decided to stick with the odd tracks from it on various late '60s, early '70s albums. Mujan's mixes changed all that--although other mixes still don't interest me. That's me done. Who's next?
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 18, 2020 19:00:04 GMT
I’ve got a couple in mind, but here is the first one that comes to mind. It was also probably the most challenging for me to accept, as it is in direct opposition to what I preferred to believe as I became a fan. I believe Brian Wilson is not, and barely ever was, particularly avant garde in his musical tastes. Coming into the band (or more specifically, to Wilson himself) focused almost exclusively on Pet Sounds and the Smile music in the latter part of the ‘90s, there was the perfect blend of then-contemporary indie worship of Wilson; the publicity around his allegedly re-emerging genius; and quite a bit of press about him having been stifled by the then-super-square seeming Beach Boys, and especially the ideal foil of Mike Love, and then Dr. Landy. In my mind at that time, Pet Sounds didn’t represent the pinnacle, but the first fruits of his brilliance, FINALLY freed of the shackles of the bubblegum Beach Boys’ formula by begging off the touring life. He was a genius at work with good musicians in L.A. as they had fun, fun, fun or whatever. Then Smile music begins, and it’s so brilliant, so progressive, that the band just can’t take it. They balk, he retreats into drugs and insanity, and that’s the end of it. If he were only given the support and freedom to do so, he’s go right back to 1966-67, which is where he REALLY wanted to be all along (musically speaking). That storyline was really appealing. I still meet people who more or less think that. But the evidence doesn’t support it. You can certainly make an argument that the aforementioned period was his artistic peak (though it’s not a sure thing, either). But that this period was the emergence of an avant garde artist trying to break free of his lame band’s control? That’s just not really true. The most consistently experimental or avant garde Wilson was, was Smile. But even much of it, in hindsight, is surprisingly traditional. I mean, it incorporates “You Are My Sunshine,” “I Wanna Be Around,” and “The Old Master Painter,” for pete’s sake. And what songs was he obsessed with even during the mid-to-late ‘60s period? “Be My Baby,” “You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feeling,” “Ol’ Man River.” What kinds of music does he regularly refer to as his favorite? “Oldies but goodies,” name-checking Rosemary Clooney, the Four Freshmen, Randy Newman, Phil Spector, George Gershwin. Occasionally Bach. Nowhere on the list do we see Os Mutantes, Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, the Velvet Underground, Stockhausen, Edgar Varese, any modern jazz whatsoever. It’s not to say the man didn’t have some innovative ideas: he certainly did, especially with arrangements. But I think it’s pretty clear that he was basically relatively square, musically speaking. He got into some crazy stuff briefly in his mid-20s when he was living pretty wildly and doing some serious drugs, but even then he wasn’t consistently experimental. He isn’t an outsider artist in terms of his music. His taste was and is in the mainstream-to-corny territory. Don’t let the stories of the green-painted face, tape-recorded answers to studio execs, or the digging his own grave fool you when it comes to his music.
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Post by kds on Feb 18, 2020 19:14:02 GMT
I’ve got a couple in mind, but here is the first one that comes to mind. It was also probably the most challenging for me to accept, as it is in direct opposition to what I preferred to believe as I became a fan. I believe Brian Wilson is not, and barely ever was, particularly avant garde in his musical tastes. Coming into the band (or more specifically, to Wilson himself) focused almost exclusively on Pet Sounds and the Smile music in the latter part of the ‘90s, there was the perfect blend of then-contemporary indie worship of Wilson; the publicity around his allegedly re-emerging genius; and quite a bit of press about him having been stifled by the then-super-square seeming Beach Boys, and especially the ideal foil of Mike Love, and then Dr. Landy. In my mind at that time, Pet Sounds didn’t represent the pinnacle, but the first fruits of his brilliance, FINALLY freed of the shackles of the bubblegum Beach Boys’ formula by begging off the touring life. He was a genius at work with good musicians in L.A. as they had fun, fun, fun or whatever. Then Smile music begins, and it’s so brilliant, so progressive, that the band just can’t take it. They balk, he retreats into drugs and insanity, and that’s the end of it. If he were only given the support and freedom to do so, he’s go right back to 1966-67, which is where he REALLY wanted to be all along (musically speaking). That storyline was really appealing. I still meet people who more or less think that. It's not surprising when you consider that documentaries, books, and movies still push that storyline.
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Post by B.E. on Feb 18, 2020 19:49:40 GMT
KDS, we both seem to have really gotten into the group at about the same time, after being casual fans for far longer. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but we also both discovered the message boards at about the same time we discovered the music. For instance, I recall reading the reviews of all the albums while waiting for the CDs to come in the mail. So, now that we've both become sufficiently familiar with the BBs entire discography, do you now find yourself either breaking from or joining the consensus on certain songs/albums. Personally, I was very accepting and excited to hear all of it at first. So, I had a higher opinion on some of the "lesser" material, initially (such as, MIU), but now that enough time has passed, and the newness has worn off, I kind of feel myself joining the consensus a bit. Though, there were other songs/albums where I kind of adopted the consensus opinion (to an extent), but now enough time has passed where I'm confident in breaking from it (I'm less of a fan of Surf's Up, more of a fan of Party! and the Christmas Album). I don't expect you to agree with my examples, but I wonder if you have any of your own.
As far as songs go, here are a few that I always liked but my appreciation for has only grown (and far beyond that of the fan consensus):
- Your Summer Dream - Pom Pom Play Girl - Custom Machine - Here Comes The Night (WH version) - All I Want To Do
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Post by kds on Feb 18, 2020 20:09:52 GMT
KDS, we both seem to have really gotten into the group at about the same time, after being casual fans for far longer. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but we also both discovered the message boards at about the same time we discovered the music. For instance, I recall reading the reviews of all the albums while waiting for the CDs to come in the mail. So, now that we've both become sufficiently familiar with the BBs entire discography, do you now find yourself either breaking from or joining the consensus on certain songs/albums. Personally, I was very accepting and excited to hear all of it at first. So, I had a higher opinion on some of the "lesser" material, initially (such as, MIU), but now that enough time has passed, and the newness has worn off, I kind of feel myself joining the consensus a bit. Though, there were other songs/albums where I kind of adopted the consensus opinion (to an extent), but now enough time has passed where I'm confident in breaking from it (I'm less of a fan of Surf's Up, more of a fan of Party! and the Christmas Album). I don't expect you to agree with my examples, but I wonder if you have any of your own. As far as songs go, here are a few that I always liked but my appreciation for has only grown (and far beyond that of the fan consensus): - Your Summer Dream - Pom Pom Play Girl - Custom Machine - Here Comes The Night ( WH version) - All I Want To Do I think I got into the forums around 2014, when I was trying to find some news about possible BW shows. As for my changing about various BB releases. My experiences with MIU, and also LA, are pretty similar. When I first heard them, I liked them a lot. But, now, I rarely find myself playing them, or really wanting to play them. Same goes for Pacific Ocean Blue. The first time I heard it, I honestly though it was brilliant, but my enthusiasm for the album has waned. I've gone full circle on the early material I think too. When I first really got into the catalog, I got really heavy into the 1967-73 period, but now I find myself listening more to the 1963-66 period. I've also gone against the grain on BB85. I really didn't care for it upon first listen, but I've really grown to appreciate it.
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Post by B.E. on Feb 18, 2020 20:35:58 GMT
As for my changing about various BB releases. My experiences with MIU, and also LA, are pretty similar. When I first heard them, I liked them a lot. But, now, I rarely find myself playing them, or really wanting to play them. Same goes for Pacific Ocean Blue. The first time I heard it, I honestly though it was brilliant, but my enthusiasm for the album has waned. There was some recent discussion here to that effect regarding POB - and I get it. When I first heard it I was blown away. Immediately it became one of my all-time favorite albums - a 10/10. Then in recent years, I just hadn't really been in the mood to listen to it. Maybe a song here or there, that's it. So, when I was contemplating my top 10 favorite BBs-related albums recently, I finally listened to it again. I was relieved to find that I still loved it, but admittedly not quite as much. It's still a solid 9/10 and it still made my top 10 list, but not as high as it once would have. For me, I was most lukewarm about "Dreamer" and "End Of The Show" this time around. I've also gone against the grain on BB85. I really didn't care for it upon first listen, but I've really grown to appreciate it. Its cohesiveness, and uniqueness, is probably its strongest attributes. If I'm in the right mood, I thoroughly enjoy it. Well, "I Do Love You" aside.
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Post by B.E. on Feb 18, 2020 20:44:29 GMT
Unexpectedly, I've slowly become more fond of the instrumentals. Initially, my mindset was simply that rock/pop instrumentals were incomplete songs and I hardly gave them the time of day. My mindset hasn't changed completely, but it has clearly shifted. I'm now a huge fan of "Surf Jam" and "Diamond Head", in particular. On the subject of Surfin USA, and the positive effect of reading other people's perspective, I still recall > this < post from Jon Stebbins. I think posts like that are important for fans who discovered the music after-the-fact to consider. If such posts shift your mindset just a single degree, you'll probably the better for it. Similarly, I'm increasingly aware of my appreciation for the diversity of the Beach Boys discography. So, where I once bemoaned the number of instrumentals, now I enjoy the uniqueness of the listening experience. It all comes down to your mindset. For all its perceived flaws, Surfin' USA kicks ass on a sunny summer day.
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Post by kds on Feb 18, 2020 20:54:12 GMT
As for my changing about various BB releases. My experiences with MIU, and also LA, are pretty similar. When I first heard them, I liked them a lot. But, now, I rarely find myself playing them, or really wanting to play them. Same goes for Pacific Ocean Blue. The first time I heard it, I honestly though it was brilliant, but my enthusiasm for the album has waned. There was some recent discussion here to that effect regarding POB - and I get it. When I first heard it I was blown away. Immediately it became one of my all-time favorite albums - a 10/10. Then in recent years, I just hadn't really been in the mood to listen to it. Maybe a song here or there, that's it. So, when I was contemplating my top 10 favorite BBs-related albums recently, I finally listened to it again. I was relieved to find that I still loved it, but admittedly not quite as much. It's still a solid 9/10 and it still made my top 10 list, but not as high as it once would have. For me, I was most lukewarm about "Dreamer" and "End Of The Show" this time around. I've also gone against the grain on BB85. I really didn't care for it upon first listen, but I've really grown to appreciate it. Its cohesiveness, and uniqueness, is probably its strongest attributes. If I'm in the right mood, I thoroughly enjoy it. Well, "I Do Love You" aside. I know I've given POB a rating of 9/10 in the past. But, I think that's when there was still some novelty to it (for me anyway), and I was using other post Holland BB and solo releases as a measuring stick, which accounted for a rating that I don't feel it deserves. For BB85, I think since I grew up in the 1980s, hearing the overall sound of the album, combined with the voices of the Boys, conjures up childhood summertime memories.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 18, 2020 21:01:14 GMT
My second major shift—and this one is far more opinion than my first one, which I think was more an education (or at least opinion changing based on becoming more educated)—has to do with the early music. As a lot of my posts indicate, I came to the band with a strictly Brian Wilson focus, and more specifically a Brian Wilson Smileish focus. I knew—knew—the late music was trash, and I’d heard and dismissed the early music. The early music was for me easily dismissed because it was commercially successful, artistically lightweight (a few ballads that showed hints of future genius notwithstanding). Surf and car songs were to be mocked and apologized for, explained away immediately to anyone when I wanted to talk about my Beach Boys, the music of 1966-67. One very specific moment that helped change my mind was “Don’t Worry Baby” live in 2001, my first Wilson concert. Despite myself (still not liking the song), I teared up a little out of love for the song. Cognitive dissonance. I’d begrudgingly add a few songs here and there. “I Get Around” was an early one. Anyway, my opinion came around quite dramatically on that one. I still don’t really like a lot of the very earliest stuff, but I’m all-in for a solid half of Surfer Girl and think you could argue there was already a minor masterpiece by All Summer Long, which is mid-’64.
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Post by B.E. on Feb 18, 2020 21:15:52 GMT
To follow up on the point I was trying to make in my last post about one's mindset, when I really got into the group 7-8 years ago I didn't concern myself much with production and mixes and all the nitty-gritty details that can be endlessly obsessed over. In fact, I clearly remember wondering, upon discovering the message boards, "why is everyone so fixated with production?!" Well, I learned a lot. Really, it was very rewarding (still is, in certain respects). But, (somewhat) recently I started to suspect I'd lost some perspective in regard to simply listening to the music. Enjoying it for what it is and not what it isn't or what it represents. Hopefully you guys understand where I'm coming from. There's much appreciation to be found in the Beach Boys music, and you need to look beneath the surface to fully appreciate it, but, again, I think you can lose perspective (and without realizing it). I suppose it's a balancing act.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 18, 2020 21:24:24 GMT
That’s a good point, and I think I’ve seen it from a couple of sides depending on the issue. On some levels, production matters a lot to me. I still don’t like a song like “Surfin’ USA” very much in its album version just because I don’t think the band did a good job of capturing the muscle and energy of the song on the studio recording. But there are plenty of live versions where that song is amazing—so I know it’s not just the song itself I don’t like, it’s really the production in a broad sense (including arrangement, engineering, etc.). I do care about that stuff. Sometimes it’s just my instinctive response, like above. I’m not consciously judging the production so much as being alerted to the production by hearing it in other contexts. Other times it is just a sense that my personal taste would dictate different production choices, like with BW’s ’88 solo debut. Sure, I can imagine how a song could be changed to better suit me, but I can’t ignore the way it actually does sound—in this case, with drum machines and a Yamaha DX7 (or whatever). However, other times I hear people doing the same thing but on different topics—the BWPS harpsichord was a synth! The mix is brickwalled!—and I just think, “my gosh, relax a little. You’re ruining it for yourself.” I guess we all just have our own little quirks.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 18, 2020 21:26:27 GMT
In my mind at that time, Pet Sounds didn’t represent the pinnacle, but the first fruits of his brilliance, FINALLY freed of the shackles of the bubblegum Beach Boys’ formula by begging off the touring life. He was a genius at work with good musicians in L.A. as they had fun, fun, fun or whatever. Then Smile music begins, and it’s so brilliant, so progressive, that the band just can’t take it. They balk, he retreats into drugs and insanity, and that’s the end of it. If he were only given the support and freedom to do so, he’s go right back to 1966-67, which is where he REALLY wanted to be all along (musically speaking). I'm going to respectfully take exception with one specific part of your post. I do think Brian felt "shackled" by The Beach Boys' formula, if you, in fact, consider it a formula (let's just say the summer/fun/girls subject matter AND music, the classic Beach Boys' sound). I think by 1965, Brian considered his prior work to be derivative rock/pop with hedonistic (fun?) Mike Love lyrics, and I think he sincerely wanted to take his music in different non-rock and roll directions. We've seen the term "stretching out" used in describing Brian's art throughout the years, but I think in 1966-67 he was very motivated to do just that. I think he wanted to intentionally make "different" music and leave Chuck Berry and The Four Freshmen behind. Of course there were many factors driving that motivation including drugs, the competitive side of his personality at that time, and various people who were telling the public and him just how great he was. Brian has been known to downplay his talent at times, but he knew how good he was. And he knew that he had to move on from Summer Days (And Summer Nights) just like The Beatles had to move on from A Hard Day's Night and Help!
You can't listen to Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends and not hear an artist who is intentionally moving on from his past musical styles (again if you believe he had a style. I do.). Brian wanted to experiment. He wanted to try different styles of music, not necessarily different styles of rock and roll, but different styles of music. You couldn't pin the man down. Smiley Smile is almost an experimental album. He wanted to try the "soul music"/stripped rock and pop sound with Wild Honey, leaving his Wrecking Crew opuses behind. And with Friends, there ain't a guitar in sight! Brian was either burned out on rock and roll, or wanted to make a musical statement with his mellow, simple melodies and arrangements. This wasn't the Brian Wilson from three years ago. He had moved on. I don't think Brian was sitting at home, deviously planning these changes to destroy The Beach Boys' image which he basically created - but that's exactly what he did! And, the guys followed him. Right off a cliff. Into commercial irrelevance, into bankruptcy, and never quite recovering from that trifecta of albums. And all because Brian Wilson was true to his art, his muse, his wanting to...expand.
I do think Brian took this/his fall from grace personally, and it had some major effects on him, mostly eventually retreating (of course due to drugs and mental illness, too). To some extent, I think he was upset with the group, but who knows to what extent? You can't believe everything you read. I believe it is natural for a group to have artistic disagreements, and I've always followed the belief, that, hey, the guys ultimately went into the studio and did their parts, and did them well. So, while they might've occasionally bitched about a song or some words, in the end the music got recorded and released. I think Brian might've been more upset by the lack of critical and commercial success. That wasn't supposed to happen, right? The guy was on quite a roll. Everything he did turned to gold, and all of a sudden, it stops. Just like that. I'm sure he went into some shock and panic, and we know how he dealt with that.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 18, 2020 21:38:17 GMT
I don’t quite disagree with you. I DO think Brian was musically “stretching out,” as you said, from roughly ’65 through the early ‘70s. I just don’t think it was (for the most part) anywhere near as experimental or avant garde as the myth suggested, and I don’t think the band was as opposed to his diversifying musical interests as the myth suggested. For the first point, I’ll just point back to what I’d said earlier: even in the “experimental” phase, there was a lot of Americana, plenty of rock and roll, etc. Yes, he was changing the music around, but for example, is Wild Honey experimental, avant garde? Not remotely! It’s just a different style from what the band had been doing. There are moments of something more obscure, but relatively few of them. For the second point, I think it’s a matter of degrees. But I think the “shackles” were few and far between, and more about the drugs, the culture, the hangers-on, and probably the work ethic (as time went on) than they were about music. Otherwise I think he was limited more by himself (drugs and mental health) than by the group holding him back. Some of those issues were no doubt related to the group, but that doesn’t necessarily make them responsible for those issues. (E.g., if he felt held back because Group Member B didn’t flip out and wildly encourage some new song, and if that feeling festered and caused him to retreat more into himself, is that honestly Group Member B’s fault?)
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