|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 18, 2020 23:35:59 GMT
I don’t quite disagree with you. I DO think Brian was musically “stretching out,” as you said, from roughly ’65 through the early ‘70s. I just don’t think it was (for the most part) anywhere near as experimental or avant garde as the myth suggested, and I don’t think the band was as opposed to his diversifying musical interests as the myth suggested. For the first point, I’ll just point back to what I’d said earlier: even in the “experimental” phase, there was a lot of Americana, plenty of rock and roll, etc. Yes, he was changing the music around, but for example, is Wild Honey experimental, avant garde? Not remotely! It’s just a different style from what the band had been doing. There are moments of something more obscure, but relatively few of them. For the second point, I think it’s a matter of degrees. But I think the “shackles” were few and far between, and more about the drugs, the culture, the hangers-on, and probably the work ethic (as time went on) than they were about music. Otherwise I think he was limited more by himself (drugs and mental health) than by the group holding him back. Some of those issues were no doubt related to the group, but that doesn’t necessarily make them responsible for those issues. (E.g., if he felt held back because Group Member B didn’t flip out and wildly encourage some new song, and if that feeling festered and caused him to retreat more into himself, is that honestly Group Member B’s fault?) I'll agree that Brian's music wasn't necessarily avant garde. I think because Smiley Smile and Friends, and somewhat Wild Honey were such a departure from the band's classic sound, everybody considered it...different...even to the point of feeling confused or betrayed by Brian for changing gears (no pun intended). But is was only different when you compare it with "Wouldn't it be nice to have some fun in sun with my California girl on my Sloop John B".
I don't know...I still think there was some push back and lack of being all in on the Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends albums. Not completely, but there had to be some apprehension. After the massive success they were experiencing, it's only human to wonder what the hell is he doing. He's gonna blow it. I think there was some overall trusting in Brian's musical judgement (he hadn't had any real failures but a lot of successes). But at the same time, I think there was some "don't fuck with the formula" feelings in there, too. They didn't want to admit that, and in the future they backtracked from that. They were young, they loved the money and success, and they didn't really have the guts (there's a better term but I can't think of it) to stand up to Brian AT THAT TIME. Maybe that's one of the reasons Brian didn't want to be listed as producer, or had the other guys start to contribute more material of their own. Maybe Brian was trying to appease them, kind of like compromising for taking the band in another direction. .
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 19, 2020 1:36:08 GMT
As I contemplate this thread's topic, the changing of my mind and opinions, I can't say that my opinions have changed all that much since I was a newbie in 1975-76. The biggest change, or the change that stayed with me the most, was my thought - and hope - that Brian "still had it" (and you know what "it" means when it comes to Brian), only to realize that he most likely didn't have "it" anymore. How's that for a sentence?
Right around the time I was discovering the band, the Brian Is Back campaign was just starting. And I really wanted to believe it. I looked for signs, any signs, in 15 Big Ones and Love You. And, no doubt about it, there were signs that Brian still had it. Maybe damaged, maybe rougher for wear, and definitely changed both physically and mentally, but I still believed in his talent. It was a little harder to keep the faith with M.I.U., L.A. (Light Album), and Keepin' The Summer Alive - but I did. I sincerely liked Brian's songs during that particular time frame. I thought his songs still had that spark, that Brian Wilson touch, that feeling only his music could bring. It was a little diminished, it didn't knock me out like his previous 1960's work, but I enjoyed the heck out of it. Brian even appeared more lucid in interviews during 1980 and 1981. I was still a believer. And then 1983 hit.
When I first saw and heard Brian in 1983, it was obvious that something was wrong. When I heard Brian's songs on The Beach Boys 1985 album, I really started to worry. They were the most simple, plain, dare I say boring songs that I ever heard from Brian. They lacked that spark, that magic, that Brian touch. They were "paint by numbers" songs, songs that any decent songwriter could come up with. And THAT was the the most disappointing aspect. They weren't songs that only Brian could up with.
I remember shelling out 16 bucks for the soundtrack album to Police Academy 4 - for just one song - "Let's Go To Heaven In My Car". I played that song over and over and over, hoping it would catch on, hoping it would resonate, and I didn't. This...trend...continued with BW1988 and Still Cruisin' and right into Brian's solo career. Yes, there were real highlights on every album, but they were few, and they didn't reach the heights of his 1960's or 1970's work.
So, if I had to go back in time to pinpoint exactly when my opinion changed regarding Brian's writing/arranging/producing talent, it would have to start when he hooked up with Landy the second time in 1982. I never heard Brian's music the same way again.
|
|
|
Post by lonelysummer on Feb 20, 2020 23:09:44 GMT
I used to be a Mike Love basher. When Carl died, and Mike decided he wanted to continue touring as "the Beach Boys", I was completely against it. I blamed Mike for - maybe not everything - but a lot of what had gone wrong with the group. My hatred started around the time of the Summer In Paradise album. His music just seemed very shallow, superficial. I was really pissed off that he had total control on the album, no new songs from Carl or Al (I didn't expect Brian to be on it - the autobiography pretty much destroyed whatever relationship he had with the guys). And Mike came up with the stupid Stars and Stripes album. I can't tell you exactly what changed my mind about Mike. Probably a combination of things. I watched all the Brian fans getting all excited about their guy becoming a touring solo artist; I remembered when the first solo album came out in 1988, and fans speculated what songs he might play if he toured to support the album. Expectations were high that Brian could be a commercially successful, relevant solo artist in the 80's. By the time he finally did go on tour, Brian and his handlers seemed to have given up on trying to promote him as a contemporary artist. Out of 30 songs played in a typical BW show, early 2000's, maybe 3 were from his solo albums. So Brian is receiving high praise for doing exactly what Mike was criticized for all these years - playing oldies. The other thing that made me take another look at how I felt about Mike was when he finally put out an album of his own. It was cool to diss it on certain other BB internet forums, but I listened to the cd, and I thought it was a very good mature (finally) statement from the man. And, at this stage, if I had to choose between seeing Mike's band in concert, or Brian's, I would choose Mike's. Sure, Mike's voice isn't as strong as it was 30 or 40 years, but he does pretty well singing those great songs, and he's surrounded himself with a great band. Brian just looks miserable onstage now, his singing is weak...it's just a sad sight to see and hear.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Feb 20, 2020 23:17:46 GMT
Funny, because I can relate to a lot of that. But I still think most of his music is "very shallow, superficial." I think it's more that I have less a problem with shallow and superficial music than I did when I was in my early 20s and trying to be so, so deep. Now I'd rather Mike NOT try to out-kick his coverage, so to speak. I'll take shallow and superficial (but fun) over failed attempts at depth any day.
You're pretty much dead-on about Brian's solo career. To his credit, in the early years, he was doing mostly Beach Boys music but it included deeper cuts; and the Love-led Beach Boys were nowhere near the band they have become since. But as they got better in that respect, Brian moved more toward them, and the two groups more or less met in the middle. The quality of the groups is REALLY similar, and the setlists ... if 0 were 100% surf-and-car fun hits and 10 were 100% artistic statements, it's like a 4 for the Beach Boys and a 5 for Brian.
|
|
|
Post by lonelysummer on Feb 21, 2020 6:50:04 GMT
I attended a lot of Beach Boys shows with friends in the 80s, and to them, deep cuts were I Can Hear Music, Darlin', basically anything that wasn't on Endless Summer. I was the only one who cared if they had any new songs in the show; although I do remember one friend really enjoying Getcha Back. I really like the band Mike has now; for that matter, Brian has a great band, too; but ..this is going back to another comment in this thread...about Brian supposedly being avant garde or something. When I first heard about the band that was put together for Brian's solo shows, I thought "okay, a bunch of young hip musicians who like Brian for his most out-there productions, they're gonna push him in that direction". Darian seems to be the savior in this scenario; "hey, let's get Brian to be weird again!" Well, I was wrong about that. These guys are out there playing Surfin' USA, Surfer Girl, Fun Fun Fun, Barbara Ann, Help Me Rhonda, all that 'square' music Brian had supposedly outgrown. And the recorded output of these guys with Brian finds them playing it safe. Are there Brianistas out there who still think he is adventurous and cutting edge? puleeze!
|
|
|
Post by kds on Feb 21, 2020 13:18:43 GMT
I don't think I ever went full on Brianista, but when I first got into the BB world in 2012, and eventually the online world in 2014, I was very much Team Brian. And I bought into a lot of the Brian good / Mike bad claptrap. It didn't take too long, with a little reading, to find out that Brian (and the other Wilsons) have just as many fiobles as Mike.
And I'll agree it's pretty funny that at one time (and maybe still) Mike took a beating for playing 30 song greatest hits sets at Casinos, and that's EXACTLY what Brian does these days.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Feb 21, 2020 13:22:24 GMT
And I'll agree it's pretty funny that at one time (and maybe still) Mike took a beating for playing 30 song greatest hits sets at Casinos, and that's EXACTLY what Brian does these days. The thing is, it's so obvious why both bands would do that, too: those are the most popular songs. Simple as that. It's not all my favorite music, which does tend toward the latter 60s and into the early 70s, but it is the most popular. By a mile. Brian's early 00s touring was more an exercise in branding, as has been his entire solo career since: "don't forget, folks, he's the genius who brought you Pet Sounds and Smile." But quietly amidst the branding, the set lists went back to the norm, more or less.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Feb 21, 2020 13:29:19 GMT
And I'll agree it's pretty funny that at one time (and maybe still) Mike took a beating for playing 30 song greatest hits sets at Casinos, and that's EXACTLY what Brian does these days. The thing is, it's so obvious why both bands would do that, too: those are the most popular songs. Simple as that. It's not all my favorite music, which does tend toward the latter 60s and into the early 70s, but it is the most popular. By a mile. Brian's early 00s touring was more an exercise in branding, as has been his entire solo career since: "don't forget, folks, he's the genius who brought you Pet Sounds and Smile." But quietly amidst the branding, the set lists went back to the norm, more or less. He did tour on Pet Sounds for a long time, to the point of it being somewhat ridiculous, and he seems to have no interest in touring on Smile again. Oddly enough, you'll hear more Smile material at an Al show.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Feb 21, 2020 13:48:36 GMT
Re Pet Sounds, maybe more than anything what Brian Wilson's solo career accomplished was bringing more attention to that album. It was always acclaimed to some degree, but not necessarily popularly acclaimed in the same way the biggest albums by other '60s and '70s artists were. Growing up, I literally never heard of Pet Sounds (I knew four or five of the songs, of course.), whereas the Beatles top few albums were always on everyone's lips as the best of all time.
Brian reemerging as a semi-productive artist and touring Pet Sounds in the late 90s, early 00s, mid 00s, and the past few years, certainly helped bring it back into the regular music fan's discussion.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Feb 21, 2020 13:56:30 GMT
Re Pet Sounds, maybe more than anything what Brian Wilson's solo career accomplished was bringing more attention to that album. It was always acclaimed to some degree, but not necessarily popularly acclaimed in the same way the biggest albums by other '60s and '70s artists were. Growing up, I literally never heard of Pet Sounds (I knew four or five of the songs, of course.), whereas the Beatles top few albums were always on everyone's lips as the best of all time.
Brian reemerging as a semi-productive artist and touring Pet Sounds in the late 90s, early 00s, mid 00s, and the past few years, certainly helped bring it back into the regular music fan's discussion.
I think there's truth to that. But, the rise of Pet Sounds probably started at the height of the CD era in the late 80s / early 90s, then with the releases of the GV box, and PS Sessions box when people in the States in particular seemed to realize there was far more to The Beach Boys than the 60s hits. I think that momentum was building, and Brian taking the album on the road for the first time added to the snowball. I think, to a certain extent, Love and Mercy and the 2016-20 PS shows helped too, even if it wore a little thin of the diehard fans, and probably even Brian himself.
|
|
bellbottoms
Pacific Coast Highway
Posts: 727
Likes: 201
|
Post by bellbottoms on Feb 21, 2020 13:58:35 GMT
My initial Beach Boys fandom started in pretty similar fashion... Brian = my Hero. He still is, but now he's not on a pedestal above anyone else in the band. It's kind of evolved so that The Beach Boys are all collectively my heroes.
My Brianista phase was pretty short... once I started participating in forums and started to see people saying truly awful things about members of their so-called favourite band, I thought, that's disgusting. Personally, I can't claim to love a band but despise any one member of it - how could I enjoy the music if I was focused on hating a member of a band I claim to love?
Kicking the pedestal down from under Brian and accepting everyone in the band as human beings was essential to continuing to love them, appreciate their music and be a fan.
Not to downplay any one individual's importance, as they all have their talents, but it's what they did together as a band that has made the biggest, most lasting impression on me. They were never better than when they were together, and that's not the work of just one inspired genius.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 21, 2020 14:01:25 GMT
When I first heard about the band that was put together for Brian's solo shows, I thought "okay, a bunch of young hip musicians who like Brian for his most out-there productions, they're gonna push him in that direction". Darian seems to be the savior in this scenario; "hey, let's get Brian to be weird again!" Well, I was wrong about that. These guys are out there playing Surfin' USA, Surfer Girl, Fun Fun Fun, Barbara Ann, Help Me Rhonda, all that 'square' music Brian had supposedly outgrown. And the recorded output of these guys with Brian finds them playing it safe. Are there Brianistas out there who still think he is adventurous and cutting edge? puleeze! In my opinion, that pretty much sums up Brian's solo career.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Feb 21, 2020 14:05:13 GMT
There was a quote from Darian around 2000 where someone was talking to him about the obscure music that they were doing, basically praising him for bringing it back. Darian's response was something along the lines of "Nick and I connected over Smile, and we do want to make people more aware of some of that lesser known music, but we also love playing 'Little Honda' just as much as we love playing 'Til I Die'." (I added those song examples, but whatever he said was the same idea)
At the time I thought, nah, that can't be true. No way he likes those basic rock and roll songs as much as he likes Smile music. But now, I think he and the Wondermints were just as much the victim of fans' projections as Brian has always been.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Feb 21, 2020 14:06:15 GMT
My initial Beach Boys fandom started in pretty similar fashion... Brian = my Hero. He still is, but now he's not on a pedestal above anyone else in the band. It's kind of evolved so that The Beach Boys are all collectively my heroes. My Brianista phase was pretty short... once I started participating in forums and started to see people saying truly awful things about members of their so-called favourite band, I thought, that's disgusting. Personally, I can't claim to love a band but despise any one member of it - how could I enjoy the music if I was focused on hating a member of a band I claim to love? Kicking the pedestal down from under Brian and accepting everyone in the band as human beings was essential to continuing to love them, appreciate their music and be a fan. Not to downplay any one individual's importance, as they all have their talents, but it's what they did together as a band that has made the biggest, most lasting impression on me. They were never better than when they were together, and that's not the work of just one inspired genius. That's one thing I never got. I'll never say that Mike is perfect. He's made mistakes along the way. That version of Do It Again from a few years ago with Mark McGrath is still a major WTF moment. But, I think it's beyond silly to let it affect my enjoyment of the music. If that were the case, I might not enjoy the music of bands like Pink Floyd and KISS nearly as much either.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Jan 3, 2023 17:08:05 GMT
I'm reinvigorating (I hope ... but at least resurrecting) this 2-year-old thread with a new approach for going forward. Initially it was just to discuss more or less any changes you've had over your fandom. I thought in the spirit of jk 's "question of the week" thread, this could not take a more specifically focused approach on a rolling basis about various changes people might've experienced. I'm not sure how often I'll change the specific questions, probably somewhere between every few days and every week, depending on activity. It should go without saying, but if you'd be willing and able to add some context to your answers, it'll make for better discussion (as opposed to just naming an album/song/etc.). First up: Which Beach Boys (or related, e.g. solo albums) album have you most changed your mind about for the better?
|
|