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Post by Kapitan on Aug 2, 2023 19:08:42 GMT
Certainly. Where was Merle? Where was Tammy? Where was their old buddy Glen Campbell? Rehab. Well then that should've been the key to Mike's promotional campaign talking points. "You know, it's too bad that some of our favorites like [Campbell or whoever] couldn't participate in this because they chose to abuse drugs and alcohol, like my cousins Brian, Carl, and Dennis Wilson. I met the Maharishi in 1967, and went with the Beatles to Rishikesh, India, in 1968 to study transcendental meditation. I wrote a song about my relationship with George Harrison years later..."
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
Posts: 520
Likes: 532
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Post by Emdeeh on Aug 2, 2023 20:26:17 GMT
Tammy was there with "In My Room," but she didn't make it onto Vol. 1. She was going to be included on Vol. 2. It was released on a tribute album to her, Tammy Wynette Remembered.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 2, 2023 20:35:46 GMT
The whole idea that there would or should be two volumes of a country covers album with the band on background vocals only is beyond belief for me. This is where their minds were at the time? No new albums in half a decade, they finally have Brian Wilson on board again for the first time in a decade, there are new songs available. Let's let modern country artists cover our songs and we'll release it. Honestly.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 3, 2023 0:19:22 GMT
I think Stars and Stripes Vol. 1 has some merit, more merit than most fans (Beach Boys' or otherwise) do. I also think there is some historical significance; I suppose there is with every Beach Boys' album. But, what I would like to see happen - and there is 0% of it happening - is a reissue of the album in this way:
1. First and least important, I would eliminate the Vol. 1 part of the album title and simply re-title it Stars and Stripes. I think that album title is fine. I actually like it. Same with the album cover.
2. Next, I would include Tammy Wynette's "In My Room". It's not great but it's a very good cover, and it has historical significance related to Tammy's career. 3. The fact that Rodney Crowell performed "Sail On Sailor" at Fan Fest and appeared in the documentary led many to believe that he recorded the song. It has to be included. 4. There was a rumor that Merle Haggard was offered "California Saga: California" and that Al Jardine even recorded a guide demo for Merle. Of course that would be a welcomed edition, however, I have never seen the rumor substantiated. 5. Now you're going from 12 songs to possibly 15, and the 3 you're adding are potentially very good. This would automatically give the album more credence. 6. Included in the reissued package would be a DVD of the Nashville Sounds documentary. Regardless of what you think of the album, in my opinion the documentary is excellent. It wouldn't be a bad idea to also include the couple of TV appearances and performances the guys did to promote the album.
Some day, everything The Beach Boys recorded will be re-examined and re-evaluated and put under the proverbial microscope. To some extent it already is. And, like it or not, Stars and Stripes will be part of that. It was the return of Brian Wilson to the group after the Eugene Landy fiasco, and it was the last Beach Boys-related album that Carl Wilson recorded with the group. Lastly, I just have to say that commercially, it was not the total failure that most people think it was. Yes, on the Billboard Top 200 Album Chart it only peaked at #101, but on the Country Album Chart it topped out at #12. Kathy Trocolli's "I Can Hear Music" reached #16 on the Adult Contemporary Chart. Lorrie Morgan's "Don't Worry Baby", James House's "Little Deuce Coupe", and Doug Supernaw's "Long Tall Texan" on the Country Singles Chart peaked at #73, #69, and #69 respectively. There was a decent rotation of videos on the Country Music Channel, and as I mentioned, there were some high-profile TV appearances.
Again, it'll never happen, but I think a reissued 14-15 song CD/DVD with new, expanded liner notes/photos at a budget price would be a very entertaining Beach Boys' product. Are you listening Iconic?
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 3, 2023 12:10:29 GMT
Some day, everything The Beach Boys recorded will be re-examined and re-evaluated and put under the proverbial microscope. To some extent it already is. And, like it or not, Stars and Stripes will be part of that. It was the return of Brian Wilson to the group after the Eugene Landy fiasco, and it was the last Beach Boys-related album that Carl Wilson recorded with the group. I couldn't disagree more with your main point (that it ought to be reissued or has any particular merit), and I'd say to some extent, the quoted part above is exactly why. Putting it under the microscope, re-evaluating it, shows that it was a terrible decision in the first place, a waste of the group's apparent momentum by relegating them to the role of background singers to (mostly) far inferior artists in another genre altogether. Maybe it boosted their profile among country listeners. If so, maybe it paid off financially (not just with that album's sales, but their whole catalog's sales). But wouldn't you rather have had, y'know, a Beach Boys album? Sitting there on the shelf were "Soul Searchin," "You're Still a Mystery," "Desert Drive," "Some Sweet Day," "Saturday Morning in the City," "Gettin In Over My Head," "Must Be a Miracle," "It's Not Easy Being Me," "Marketplace," "Mary Ann," "Where Has Love Been," ... and that, of course, is just some of what Wilson/Paley had done. It doesn't incorporate whatever Mike, Al, Carl, or Bruce might have had lying around. "Waves of Love," "Don't Fight the Sea," "Like a Brother," "Run Don't Walk," "I Wish For You," "They're Only Words," and likely much of what became Unleash the Love/ Mike Love Not War. I know what I would have preferred.
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Post by kds on Aug 3, 2023 14:15:54 GMT
I don't usually like to say that "(Album X) shouldn't be an album by (Band Y)", but for S&S, I'll make an exception.
I think if there's any merit to S&S, it's as a tribute album, not an actual Beach Boys album. Because that's what it is, it's a Beach Boys tribute album that features The Beach Boys. That fact that it was released with "The Beach Boys" on the cover, as a Beach Boys album, was IMO, a huge mistake. And, again just my two cents, more ridiculous than Mike and Bruce touring as The Beach Boys for the last quarter century.
I can't think of any other examples of a tribute album being passed off as an album by said band, especially when, as Kap says, it's not like The Beach Boys weren't sitting on a ton of material.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 3, 2023 17:31:11 GMT
Some day, everything The Beach Boys recorded will be re-examined and re-evaluated and put under the proverbial microscope. To some extent it already is. And, like it or not, Stars and Stripes will be part of that. It was the return of Brian Wilson to the group after the Eugene Landy fiasco, and it was the last Beach Boys-related album that Carl Wilson recorded with the group. I couldn't disagree more with your main point (that it ought to be reissued or has any particular merit), and I'd say to some extent, the quoted part above is exactly why. Putting it under the microscope, re-evaluating it, shows that it was a terrible decision in the first place, a waste of the group's apparent momentum by relegating them to the role of background singers to (mostly) far inferior artists in another genre altogether. Maybe it boosted their profile among country listeners. If so, maybe it paid off financially (not just with that album's sales, but their whole catalog's sales). But wouldn't you rather have had, y'know, a Beach Boys album? Sitting there on the shelf were "Soul Searchin," "You're Still a Mystery," "Desert Drive," "Some Sweet Day," "Saturday Morning in the City," "Gettin In Over My Head," "Must Be a Miracle," "It's Not Easy Being Me," "Marketplace," "Mary Ann," "Where Has Love Been," ... and that, of course, is just some of what Wilson/Paley had done. It doesn't incorporate whatever Mike, Al, Carl, or Bruce might have had lying around. "Waves of Love," "Don't Fight the Sea," "Like a Brother," "Run Don't Walk," "I Wish For You," "They're Only Words," and likely much of what became Unleash the Love/ Mike Love Not War. I know what I would have preferred. If you didn't like the concept of Stars and Stripes, I get it. You don't have to approve of or like a Beach Boys' tribute album, especially a country-based one, especially one with the band performing (only) harmonies on the album. You don't have to like (or even know of) all the artists. You don't have to like the arrangements. And, you don't have to be a fan of Joe Thomas's production. Hey, not many did - approve of all of the above that is. But, I do think you - and most Beach Boys'/music fans - put too much misplaced blame on the album which I believe influenced/influences their like or dislike of the album, dare I say the music. Subconsciously? Well, it wasn't what I wanted, so...
I don't think people (and some of them are on this board) are putting Stars and Stripes in the right perspective. And that's surprising because I think there were, maybe not exact precedents, but precedents nevertheless. I think you have to begin with a truer picture of 1996 as it related to the state of the band. Kapitan, you mentioned "a waste of the group's apparent momentum". Huh? What momentum? When Brian Wilson left Dr. Landy circa 1992-93, everybody wanted a piece of him, including The Beach Boys who were literally a sinking ship. The group blew it after the unexpected success of "Kokomo". Still Cruisin', despite its sales, was a disappointment. Summer In Paradise was a disaster. There were lawsuits. Carl had a falling out with Brian. Al was pissing off Mike. And Brian dated/got married to Melinda Ledbetter. The Beach Boys were in disarray.
Around that time, Brian was being pulled in a lot of directions, willing or unwilling. There were the Wilson-Paley Sessions. Don Was wanted to do his thing with Brian - and did. Rob Wasserman got a song or two recorded. And Van Dyke Parks re-entered the picture and got Brian to do an entire album of vocals. But what about The Beach Boys? They got nothing. An attempt was made to record some songs (with Brian producing?) that ended with circumstances that, to this day, are still not clearly spelled-out. As 1996 rolled around, there was no Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys. There was no new album being planned. So, some guy from River North Records approached Mike Love and/or BRI about a country-themed tribute album with Joe Thomas producing and we got Stars and Stripes. Stars and Stripes didn't "bump" or prohibit or take the place of any new Beach Boys' album. It was what it was. A tribute album. It was NEVER promoted or advertised as anything else. If you wanna talk about record bins, where would you place it other than with the Beach Boys?
So, where's the precedent with the group that I was referring to? If I remember correctly - and I could be wrong, I could be misremembering - some of the goals of Stars and Stripes were to get Brian back with the guys to produce them/their vocals, to re-record some old Beach Boys' tunes, to heal some wounds, to re-establish some relationships, to have some fun, and then to hopefully move on to the NEXT album which would be a new Beach Boys album. Precedent? The Beach Boys' Party. One of the goals of that album was to record outside material and old Beach Boys' tunes to "buy time" until Brian was ready to record the NEXT album of NEW material which became Pet Sounds. Another precedent? 15 Big Ones. Brian would reacclimate himself to the studio and the guys by recording oldies. The NEXT album would be a NEW Beach Boys' album of new material, which became The Beach Boys Love You.
You have to keep in mind that in 1995-96, it had been 20 years since Brian produced the band. Maybe that was one thing that Carl didn't like about the 1994-95 sessions - Brian's production skills. Carl had moved on. Brian didn't. Stars and Stripes was an attempt, albeit not a very challenging one, for Brian to show that he could still produce/work with the guys, for an extended period, on an entire album, in a modern setting, with a co-producer. Repeat - Stars and Stripes was never supposed to be THE NEW Beach Boys' album. But, I bet they hoped a follow-up album was. And, as we know, that turned out to be Imagination. In my mind, Stars and Stripes was successful in accomplishing those things I noted above. Who knew Melinda would throw a monkey wrench into The Beach Boys' plans by packing up and moving to St. Charles, Illinois. After that is was essentially game over for The Beach Boys. But don't blame Stars and Stripes. It was just a tribute album, a then-popular country-based one that featured some cool Beach Boys' harmonies, sold a few copies, got the guys in the news, got them on TV, and got them back together, albeit briefly.
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Post by kds on Aug 3, 2023 18:13:20 GMT
For me, the backstory and goings ons in Beach Boys Land at that time really have no effect on how I take the music on Stars and Stripes, which I hear as, for the most part, very inferior versions of mostly great songs. Even the highlights (ie. Warmth of the Sun) greatly pale in comparison to their original counterparts to my ears.
I've tried in some sense to embrace this tribute posing as a Beach Boys album, especially in recent years as I've grown to appreciate Country music far. But...I just can't. I've said before, I still have yet to even purchase a CD of the album, and honestly, I don't know if I ever will. That's how little I think of it in terms of the Beach Boys canon.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 3, 2023 18:57:49 GMT
Sheriff John Stone, that's a thoughtful post and I'm going to make a thoughtful reply to some of your points. This is not that reply. This is just a short one to say you're right that part of the problem I have is accepting the album for what it is. It is a perfectly adequate tribute album to the Beach Boys. So it's a pop-country version of the She & Him album from last year, except instead of Brian guesting on one song, it has the guesting backgrounds on all the songs. And that She & Him album wouldn't have been something I'd accept under the name Brian Wilson or Beach Boys, either. It's just a tribute/covers album. But I do have some responses to some of your more substantive points, including some ... I won't quite say arguments. Well, I will say that. They are arguments against your points. All in good fun, of course!
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 3, 2023 19:36:25 GMT
For me, the backstory and goings ons in Beach Boys Land at that time really have no effect on how I take the music on Stars and Stripes, which I hear as, for the most part, very inferior versions of mostly great songs. Even the highlights (ie. Warmth of the Sun) greatly pale in comparison to their original counterparts to my ears. I've tried in some sense to embrace this tribute posing as a Beach Boys album, especially in recent years as I've grown to appreciate Country music far. But...I just can't. I've said before, I still have yet to even purchase a CD of the album, and honestly, I don't know if I ever will. That's how little I think of it in terms of the Beach Boys canon. kds, I think you're misunderstanding the point of my post. I am not propositioning that the backstory of Stars and Stripes should or could influence your liking or disliking of the album, though I do believe backstories can sometimes do such a thing. I was trying to point out that Stars and Stripes shouldn't be blamed for what we didn't get. It wasn't the group choosing Stars and Stripes over an album of new material. It wasn't choosing one over the other or choosing A over B. While I didn't state it in my above post because it's always assumed , the main reason for doing the Stars and Stripes album was probably to make a quick buck doing minimal work. But, from what I read at the time and from I took from the Nashville Sounds documentary, a significant reason or motive (at least the way the album was set up) was to formally/officially reunite the group in the studio - with Brian producing/co-producing - and hopefully then moving on to bigger, better things. It wasn't refusing or denying songs like "You're Still A Mystery", "Soul Searchin'", and "Desert Drive" in favor of BB remakes using country artists as lead vocalists. The new material would come, hopefully next. First, prove that they can pull it off. Think of the 2012 scenario. Now, I'm not comparing That's Why God Made The Radio to Stars and Stripes musically, but most people were hoping and expecting that, after all they went through to reunite the group and get Brian back in the fold, they would continue on from there to another album. We know that didn't happen, but think of Imagination as No Pier Pressure. It was all set up to happen (another BB album of new material), but due to unfortunate circumstances, it didn't come to fruition.
Again, you can dislike Stars and Stripes for the music. I have no problems with that. To each his/her own, but I do have problems when people blame the album for depriving or substituting BB oldies with country artists for new material. There are other reasons we didn't get THAT album.
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Post by kds on Aug 3, 2023 19:40:57 GMT
For me, the backstory and goings ons in Beach Boys Land at that time really have no effect on how I take the music on Stars and Stripes, which I hear as, for the most part, very inferior versions of mostly great songs. Even the highlights (ie. Warmth of the Sun) greatly pale in comparison to their original counterparts to my ears. I've tried in some sense to embrace this tribute posing as a Beach Boys album, especially in recent years as I've grown to appreciate Country music far. But...I just can't. I've said before, I still have yet to even purchase a CD of the album, and honestly, I don't know if I ever will. That's how little I think of it in terms of the Beach Boys canon. kds, I think you're misunderstanding the point of my post. I am not propositioning that the backstory of Stars and Stripes should or could influence your liking or disliking of the album, though I do believe backstories can sometimes do such a thing. I was trying to point out that Stars and Stripes shouldn't be blamed for what we didn't get. It wasn't the group choosing Stars and Stripes over an album of new material. It wasn't choosing one over the other or choosing A over B. While I didn't state it in my above post because it's always assumed , the main reason for doing the Stars and Stripes album was probably to make a quick buck doing minimal work. But, from what I read at the time and from I took from the Nashville Sounds documentary, a significant reason or motive (at least the way the album was set up) was to formally/officially reunite the group in the studio - with Brian producing/co-producing - and hopefully then moving on to bigger, better things. It wasn't refusing or denying songs like "You're Still A Mystery", "Soul Searchin'", and "Desert Drive" in favor of BB remakes using country artists as lead vocalists. The new material would come, hopefully next. First, prove that they can pull it off. Think of the 2012 scenario. Now, I'm not comparing That's Why God Made The Radio to Stars and Stripes musically, but most people were hoping and expecting that, after all they went through to reunite the group and get Brian back in the fold, they would continue on from there to another album. We know that didn't happen, but think of Imagination as No Pier Pressure. It was all set up to happen (another BB album of new material), but due to unfortunate circumstances, it didn't come to fruition.
Again, you can dislike Stars and Stripes for the music. I have no problems with that. To each his/her own, but I do have problems when people blame the album for depriving or substituting BB oldies with country artists for new material. There are other reasons we didn't get THAT album. Ok, I think that's fair. But, even if one doesn't blame S&S for the lack of a new BB album, I don't think it's unfair to lament that fact that Mike, Brian, Al, Carl, and Bruce got together...and Stars and Stripes was all we got.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 3, 2023 20:01:27 GMT
kds, I think you're misunderstanding the point of my post. I am not propositioning that the backstory of Stars and Stripes should or could influence your liking or disliking of the album, though I do believe backstories can sometimes do such a thing. I was trying to point out that Stars and Stripes shouldn't be blamed for what we didn't get. It wasn't the group choosing Stars and Stripes over an album of new material. It wasn't choosing one over the other or choosing A over B. While I didn't state it in my above post because it's always assumed , the main reason for doing the Stars and Stripes album was probably to make a quick buck doing minimal work. But, from what I read at the time and from I took from the Nashville Sounds documentary, a significant reason or motive (at least the way the album was set up) was to formally/officially reunite the group in the studio - with Brian producing/co-producing - and hopefully then moving on to bigger, better things. It wasn't refusing or denying songs like "You're Still A Mystery", "Soul Searchin'", and "Desert Drive" in favor of BB remakes using country artists as lead vocalists. The new material would come, hopefully next. First, prove that they can pull it off. Think of the 2012 scenario. Now, I'm not comparing That's Why God Made The Radio to Stars and Stripes musically, but most people were hoping and expecting that, after all they went through to reunite the group and get Brian back in the fold, they would continue on from there to another album. We know that didn't happen, but think of Imagination as No Pier Pressure. It was all set up to happen (another BB album of new material), but due to unfortunate circumstances, it didn't come to fruition.
Again, you can dislike Stars and Stripes for the music. I have no problems with that. To each his/her own, but I do have problems when people blame the album for depriving or substituting BB oldies with country artists for new material. There are other reasons we didn't get THAT album. Ok, I think that's fair. But, even if one doesn't blame S&S for the lack of a new BB album, I don't think it's unfair to lament that fact that Mike, Brian, Al, Carl, and Bruce got together...and Stars and Stripes was all we got. I would like to address that point. My response is yes and no. Seriously, when news came out about a tribute album featuring country artists as lead vocalists, I was disappointed. At that time (1996) I was DJing and country music, especially country line dancing, was huge. And I hated it! Garth Brooks and Brooks & Dunn and Travis Tritt and Alan Jackson and others were selling a lot of records. People were wearing boots and cowboy hats and flocking to bars and casinos and honky tonks to line dance. So, as a DJ at weddings, parties, and dances, I had to at least have some of that stuff to play, and I forced myself to purchase it. Give the people what they want. I was getting paid for that service. Then, when I heard about Stars and Stripes, I harkened back to L.A. (Light Album) and the disco "Here Comes The Night". Was this more bandwagon-jumping from our favorite group?
Anyway, to address your point, yes, I absolutely was disappointed at this decision/release. That wasn't what I wanted. However - and this still applies today in 2023 - with all of the guys back together again, recording...something, and with Brian being a Beach Boy once again, I did look forward to it. I really did. There's just something about the magic of having the sum of the parts or whatever that cliche' is. I just wanted the group back together again in any capacity.
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Post by kds on Aug 3, 2023 20:05:45 GMT
Ok, I think that's fair. But, even if one doesn't blame S&S for the lack of a new BB album, I don't think it's unfair to lament that fact that Mike, Brian, Al, Carl, and Bruce got together...and Stars and Stripes was all we got. I would like to address that point. My response is yes and no. Seriously, when news came out about a tribute album featuring country artists as lead vocalists, I was disappointed. At that time (1996) I was DJing and country music, especially country line dancing, was huge. And I hated it! Garth Brooks and Brooks & Dunn and Travis Tritt and Alan Jackson and others were selling a lot of records. People were wearing boots and cowboy hats and flocking to bars and casinos and honky tonks to line dance. So, as a DJ at weddings, parties, and dances, I had to at least have some of that stuff to play, and I forced myself to purchase it. Give the people what they want. I was getting paid for that service. Then, when I heard about Stars and Stripes, I harkened back to L.A. (Light Album) and the disco "Here Comes The Night". Was this more bandwagon-jumping from our favorite group?
Anyway, to address your point, yes, I absolutely was disappointed at this decision/release. That wasn't what I wanted. However - and this still applies today in 2023 - with all of the guys back together again, recording...something, and with Brian being a Beach Boy once again, I did look forward to it. I really did. There's just something about the magic of having the sum of the parts or whatever that cliche' is. I just wanted the group back together again.
And I get this....to a certain extent. I was thrilled when the original Motley Crue reunited in 1997, but the resulting album from that reunion was also terrible IMO.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 3, 2023 20:35:11 GMT
I think you have to begin with a truer picture of 1996 as it related to the state of the band. Kapitan, you mentioned "a waste of the group's apparent momentum". Huh? What momentum? When Brian Wilson left Dr. Landy circa 1992-93, everybody wanted a piece of him, including The Beach Boys who were literally a sinking ship. The group blew it after the unexpected success of "Kokomo". Still Cruisin', despite its sales, was a disappointment. Summer In Paradise was a disaster. There were lawsuits. Carl had a falling out with Brian. Al was pissing off Mike. And Brian dated/got married to Melinda Ledbetter. The Beach Boys were in disarray. Around that time, Brian was being pulled in a lot of directions, willing or unwilling. There were the Wilson-Paley Sessions. Don Was wanted to do his thing with Brian - and did. Rob Wasserman got a song or two recorded. And Van Dyke Parks re-entered the picture and got Brian to do an entire album of vocals. But what about The Beach Boys? They got nothing. An attempt was made to record some songs (with Brian producing?) that ended with circumstances that, to this day, are still not clearly spelled-out. As 1995 rolled around, there was no Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys. There was no new album being planned. So, some guy from River North Records approached Mike Love and/or BRI about a country-themed tribute album with Joe Thomas producing and we got Stars and Stripes. Stars and Stripes didn't "bump" or prohibit or take the place of any new Beach Boys' album. It was what it was. A tribute album. It was NEVER promoted or advertised as anything else. ... Repeat - Stars and Stripes was never supposed to be a Beach Boys' album. But, I'd bet they hoped (planned on) a follow-up album that was. And, as we know, that turned out to be Imagination. In my mind, Stars and Stripes was successful in accomplishing those things I noted above. Who knew Melinda would throw a monkey wrench into The Beach Boys' plans by packing up and moving to St. Charles, Illinois. There are two basic claims here that I want to debate. 1) Some momentum in the Beach Boys world 2) The chronology and intentions of the band at various times around Stars & StripesThen I'll add one more little thing, just because I think it's fair to do so. Why do I think there was momentum to do a new Beach Boys album instead of Stars & Stripes? For several reasons, perhaps the strongest of which are that a) they began working on a new Beach Boys album in early 1995, prior to Stars & Stripes, and b) they discussed and had exploratory meetings on a different new Beach Boys album after that, but before Stars & Stripes! To me, that's pretty convincing! But there is more to it. So here is my stab at the story, with a little bit of research done this afternoon to hopefully ensure I'm at least largely correct. This is an example when some of the more knowledgeable "historians" of the group would be useful here. Brian Wilson got out from under Landy's control in early 1992. But of course, it was not all rosy with the Beach Boys just because that happened. That same year, Mike Love filed his songwriting credits lawsuit against Brian. In 1994, the Beach Boys (interestingly framed in Peter Ames Carlin's book as "the entire group (in the guise of Brother Records Inc.), plus Carl..." as if Carl were not a part of BRI? p. 278) and Audree Wilson filed a lawsuit against Brian, Landy, and Todd Gold. And of course Mike and Al had their problems in the early '90s, with Mike trying to oust Al from the group. Some momentum, huh? But I argue that things did begin to turn around in their favor in a few ways. Brian began working with Andy Paley, apparently right after being "freed" from Landy. Whatever one thinks of that material, the fact is that it got Brian's juices flowing. He was clearly excited about writing and recording again. And while we don't know what he intended for those songs (if he had any strong intentions at all beyond creating them), Andy Paley said in Carlin's book, "[T]hey worked quickly to put together an album's worth of songs Brian kept talking about in terms of the Beach Boys. 'He'd be arranging their voices in his head, saying, "Okay, this is Mike, and here's Carl, and Al and Bruce, and this is me up here,"' Paley says." Now, is that just the kind of vague way Brian always thought about harmonies? Or is it something more concrete? We don't know. (He had also by 1994ish worked with Van Dyke Parks on Orange Crate Art and Don Was on the documentary and soundtrack, as well as with his kids and a few outside artists.) But there is plenty more. On the Beach Boys' side, yes, their most recent studio output was absolutely atrocious, and flopped. But in summer 1993, they released Good Vibrations: Thirty Years of the Beach Boys to real acclaim. Rolling Stone, AllMusic, Blender, etc., all gave it 5 stars. And it included Smile music as well as rarities, giving many newer fans a whole new entree into their work. Their subsequent 1993 "unplugged" tour featured rarities and was also very well received. This was a boost to the Beach Boys, and not just in the sad late 80s and early 90s "we're still cool: look, girls in bikinis and rap!" kind of way, but for their real work, including more mature (if decades older) work. So you have the Beach Boys with a sudden third or fourth wind, with an emphasis on music beyond the fun-and-sun superficial stuff. In other words, the kind of stuff that (without a Dennis Wilson on board) probably required the input of ... a newly available and reinvigorated Brian Wilson. And the lawsuits, as I understand it, had wrapped up by this time, putting that bit of ugliness to the side. Is this where they bring in Joe Thomas to test the waters with the group? No. This, early 1995, is where Brian Wilson and Mike Love get together--not long after the songwriting lawsuit was resolved, in Dec. 1994--to reinvent the Wilson/Paley song "Dancin' the Night Away" as "Baywatch Nights." They did not finish the song ... but "the group nevertheless prepared to start working on a new album with their old leader at the helm." (Carlin, p. 283) They brought in Don Was to produce, and they recorded vocals for "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still a Mystery" in consecutive days. Then that fell apart. Love told Carlin he didn't know why the sessions fell apart. "'I have no idea why that didn't come together,' Mike says. 'I think everyone was willing to do it. I'm not sure how eager, but certainly willing.'" Carlin's book says in '98, Wilson said "'Well, a month after Carl sang "Soul Searchin'," he said he didn't like it and didn't want it on an album. That he didn't like it and had changed his mind.'" And then Carlin says "according to Melinda Wilson, the real problem was that Carl didn't think Brian's new music was commercial enough." (All from p. 284) So here it all goes to hell and they bring in Joe Thomas, right? No. Here is where they make contact with Sean O'Hagan of the High Llamas, thinking he could bring some appeal (and knowing he was a Wilson devotee). This 2005 blog post combines numerous sources, some named but nothing immediately checkable. But it relates the story with Bruce Johnston talking about an offer from (bazillionaire Richard Branson's) V2 Records making an offer for a new Beach Boys album. Johnston had heard the High Llamas' Hawaii and got it to Wilson, who reportedly liked it. So they set up a meeting with Wilson. O'Hagan says it was awkward. Subsequent meetings with the band were icier, including one in Chicago that also included Joe Thomas. The blog post says "It was during this period that Brian was being coerced away from Andy Paley (by wife Melinda, according to observers), toward Joe Thomas." Carlin says "Brian wasn't interested in [working with O'Hagan]. 'He didn't pick up a positive vibe,' [Melinda] says. 'And Brian was really hurt that he had gone to them and asked them to work with him, and they turned him down.'" (p. 284) (Note, I am not sure whether that Chicago meeting was a year or two later, pre- Imagination, by which time the Wilsons had moved to Illinois; or whether O'Hagan was misremembering the chronology, and while the meeting may have been in Chicago because of Thomas, the Wilsons hadn't moved yet.) THEN they move on to do Stars & Stripes, "conceived of by Thomas." So yes, I do despise that album partly because the music just isn't for me; an partly because it feels mislabeled as a Beach Boys album when it most certainly is not (except in name); but also because of what could have been. Not just pie-in-the-sky, but was RIGHT THERE. They had begun working together; and then they considered other ways of working together. They knew they had songs. And they screwed it up anyway, as usual. If some felt annoyed by Smiley Smile instead of Smile... No, some hypothetical 1995-96 Beach Boys album based on the Wilson/Paley stuff would not have been Smile, but it sure as hell would have been better than what happened instead; and at least Smiley Smile was a Beach Boys album. So those are my big arguments with you. Then my quibble. What is your source that "Melinda threw a monkey wrench into The Beach Boys' plans by packing up and moving to St. Charles, Illinois"? It seems to me the Beach Boys had monkeyed up their own plans several times in the preceding year or two, and then released ... an album on whose merits we strongly, strongly disagree. But what PLANS did they have? Real plans? And how did Brian and Melinda moving to St. Charles (in 1997) ruin them? Certainly there are flights to and from Chicago. It isn't as if the rest of the band were living in a hip bachelor pad a la the Monkees' fictional selves. And why blame it on Melinda? (Other than that, frankly, you put a lot of blame on Melinda for a lot of things.) We all know that Brian falls in and out of love with his friends and collaborators all the time. He wants to work with Paley every day; then he moves on to Thomas and wants to work with him. Thomas is in Chicagoland. Brian is rich enough to move wherever he wants. Sure, once there, he changes his mind. He moves back. I don't see why Melinda needs to be villainized for that, even if she IS responsible (which I don't know). And I don't see how that ruins any alleged Beach Boys plans.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 4, 2023 0:56:04 GMT
I think you have to begin with a truer picture of 1996 as it related to the state of the band. Kapitan, you mentioned "a waste of the group's apparent momentum". Huh? What momentum? When Brian Wilson left Dr. Landy circa 1992-93, everybody wanted a piece of him, including The Beach Boys who were literally a sinking ship. The group blew it after the unexpected success of "Kokomo". Still Cruisin', despite its sales, was a disappointment. Summer In Paradise was a disaster. There were lawsuits. Carl had a falling out with Brian. Al was pissing off Mike. And Brian dated/got married to Melinda Ledbetter. The Beach Boys were in disarray. Around that time, Brian was being pulled in a lot of directions, willing or unwilling. There were the Wilson-Paley Sessions. Don Was wanted to do his thing with Brian - and did. Rob Wasserman got a song or two recorded. And Van Dyke Parks re-entered the picture and got Brian to do an entire album of vocals. But what about The Beach Boys? They got nothing. An attempt was made to record some songs (with Brian producing?) that ended with circumstances that, to this day, are still not clearly spelled-out. As 1995 rolled around, there was no Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys. There was no new album being planned. So, some guy from River North Records approached Mike Love and/or BRI about a country-themed tribute album with Joe Thomas producing and we got Stars and Stripes. Stars and Stripes didn't "bump" or prohibit or take the place of any new Beach Boys' album. It was what it was. A tribute album. It was NEVER promoted or advertised as anything else. ... Repeat - Stars and Stripes was never supposed to be a Beach Boys' album. But, I'd bet they hoped (planned on) a follow-up album that was. And, as we know, that turned out to be Imagination. In my mind, Stars and Stripes was successful in accomplishing those things I noted above. Who knew Melinda would throw a monkey wrench into The Beach Boys' plans by packing up and moving to St. Charles, Illinois. There are two basic claims here that I want to debate. 1) Some momentum in the Beach Boys world 2) The chronology and intentions of the band at various times around Stars & StripesThen I'll add one more little thing, just because I think it's fair to do so. Why do I think there was momentum to do a new Beach Boys album instead of Stars & Stripes? For several reasons, perhaps the strongest of which are that a) they began working on a new Beach Boys album in early 1995, prior to Stars & Stripes, and b) they discussed and had exploratory meetings on a different new Beach Boys album after that, but before Stars & Stripes! To me, that's pretty convincing! But there is more to it. So here is my stab at the story, with a little bit of research done this afternoon to hopefully ensure I'm at least largely correct. This is an example when some of the more knowledgeable "historians" of the group would be useful here. Brian Wilson got out from under Landy's control in early 1992. But of course, it was not all rosy with the Beach Boys just because that happened. That same year, Mike Love filed his songwriting credits lawsuit against Brian. In 1994, the Beach Boys (interestingly framed in Peter Ames Carlin's book as "the entire group (in the guise of Brother Records Inc.), plus Carl..." as if Carl were not a part of BRI? p. 278) and Audree Wilson filed a lawsuit against Brian, Landy, and Todd Gold. And of course Mike and Al had their problems in the early '90s, with Mike trying to oust Al from the group. Some momentum, huh? But I argue that things did begin to turn around in their favor in a few ways. Brian began working with Andy Paley, apparently right after being "freed" from Landy. Whatever one thinks of that material, the fact is that it got Brian's juices flowing. He was clearly excited about writing and recording again. And while we don't know what he intended for those songs (if he had any strong intentions at all beyond creating them), Andy Paley said in Carlin's book, "[T]hey worked quickly to put together an album's worth of songs Brian kept talking about in terms of the Beach Boys. 'He'd be arranging their voices in his head, saying, "Okay, this is Mike, and here's Carl, and Al and Bruce, and this is me up here,"' Paley says." Now, is that just the kind of vague way Brian always thought about harmonies? Or is it something more concrete? We don't know. (He had also by 1994ish worked with Van Dyke Parks on Orange Crate Art and Don Was on the documentary and soundtrack, as well as with his kids and a few outside artists.) But there is plenty more. On the Beach Boys' side, yes, their most recent studio output was absolutely atrocious, and flopped. But in summer 1993, they released Good Vibrations: Thirty Years of the Beach Boys to real acclaim. Rolling Stone, AllMusic, Blender, etc., all gave it 5 stars. And it included Smile music as well as rarities, giving many newer fans a whole new entree into their work. Their subsequent 1993 "unplugged" tour featured rarities and was also very well received. This was a boost to the Beach Boys, and not just in the sad late 80s and early 90s "we're still cool: look, girls in bikinis and rap!" kind of way, but for their real work, including more mature (if decades older) work. So you have the Beach Boys with a sudden third or fourth wind, with an emphasis on music beyond the fun-and-sun superficial stuff. In other words, the kind of stuff that (without a Dennis Wilson on board) probably required the input of ... a newly available and reinvigorated Brian Wilson. And the lawsuits, as I understand it, had wrapped up by this time, putting that bit of ugliness to the side. Is this where they bring in Joe Thomas to test the waters with the group? No. This, early 1995, is where Brian Wilson and Mike Love get together--not long after the songwriting lawsuit was resolved, in Dec. 1994--to reinvent the Wilson/Paley song "Dancin' the Night Away" as "Baywatch Nights." They did not finish the song ... but "the group nevertheless prepared to start working on a new album with their old leader at the helm." (Carlin, p. 283) They brought in Don Was to produce, and they recorded vocals for "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still a Mystery" in consecutive days. Then that fell apart. Love told Carlin he didn't know why the sessions fell apart. "'I have no idea why that didn't come together,' Mike says. 'I think everyone was willing to do it. I'm not sure how eager, but certainly willing.'" Carlin's book says in '98, Wilson said "'Well, a month after Carl sang "Soul Searchin'," he said he didn't like it and didn't want it on an album. That he didn't like it and had changed his mind.'" And then Carlin says "according to Melinda Wilson, the real problem was that Carl didn't think Brian's new music was commercial enough." (All from p. 284) So here it all goes to hell and they bring in Joe Thomas, right? No. Here is where they make contact with Sean O'Hagan of the High Llamas, thinking he could bring some appeal (and knowing he was a Wilson devotee). This 2005 blog post combines numerous sources, some named but nothing immediately checkable. But it relates the story with Bruce Johnston talking about an offer from (bazillionaire Richard Branson's) V2 Records making an offer for a new Beach Boys album. Johnston had heard the High Llamas' Hawaii and got it to Wilson, who reportedly liked it. So they set up a meeting with Wilson. O'Hagan says it was awkward. Subsequent meetings with the band were icier, including one in Chicago that also included Joe Thomas. The blog post says "It was during this period that Brian was being coerced away from Andy Paley (by wife Melinda, according to observers), toward Joe Thomas." Carlin says "Brian wasn't interested in [working with O'Hagan]. 'He didn't pick up a positive vibe,' [Melinda] says. 'And Brian was really hurt that he had gone to them and asked them to work with him, and they turned him down.'" (p. 284) (Note, I am not sure whether that Chicago meeting was a year or two later, pre- Imagination, by which time the Wilsons had moved to Illinois; or whether O'Hagan was misremembering the chronology, and while the meeting may have been in Chicago because of Thomas, the Wilsons hadn't moved yet.) THEN they move on to do Stars & Stripes, "conceived of by Thomas." So yes, I do despise that album partly because the music just isn't for me; an partly because it feels mislabeled as a Beach Boys album when it most certainly is not (except in name); but also because of what could have been. Not just pie-in-the-sky, but was RIGHT THERE. They had begun working together; and then they considered other ways of working together. They knew they had songs. And they screwed it up anyway, as usual. If some felt annoyed by Smiley Smile instead of Smile... No, some hypothetical 1995-96 Beach Boys album based on the Wilson/Paley stuff would not have been Smile, but it sure as hell would have been better than what happened instead; and at least Smiley Smile was a Beach Boys album. So those are my big arguments with you. Then my quibble. What is your source that "Melinda threw a monkey wrench into The Beach Boys' plans by packing up and moving to St. Charles, Illinois"? It seems to me the Beach Boys had monkeyed up their own plans several times in the preceding year or two, and then released ... an album on whose merits we strongly, strongly disagree. But what PLANS did they have? Real plans? And how did Brian and Melinda moving to St. Charles (in 1997) ruin them? Certainly there are flights to and from Chicago. It isn't as if the rest of the band were living in a hip bachelor pad a la the Monkees' fictional selves. And why blame it on Melinda? (Other than that, frankly, you put a lot of blame on Melinda for a lot of things.) We all know that Brian falls in and out of love with his friends and collaborators all the time. He wants to work with Paley every day; then he moves on to Thomas and wants to work with him. Thomas is in Chicagoland. Brian is rich enough to move wherever he wants. Sure, once there, he changes his mind. He moves back. I don't see why Melinda needs to be villainized for that, even if she IS responsible (which I don't know). And I don't see how that ruins any alleged Beach Boys plans. Not mentioning Good Vibrations: Thirty Years Of The Beach Boys was an oversight of mine. It was not intentional. I was too focused on thinking only about new music being recorded, not comps being released. But, yes, the boxed set was a positive for the group. I will say, though, that while Good Vibrations: Thirty Years Of The Beach Boys was critically acclaimed, it didn't chart anywhere and I do remember reading about some disappointment at the underwhelming reaction to the SMiLE music that was finally released. Thinking out loud, I also wonder how much the boxed set affected other BB album sales and concert attendance.
We obviously disagree on "momentum" during that time frame. I don't know if it's semantics or an actual difference of opinion. You mentioned (and I mentioned) several projects during the early/mid 1990s. But, the bottom line was/is that a lot of it (the Paley sessions, some of the Don Was recordings, the Beach Boys' recordings that were rejected by Carl) went unreleased, and the stuff that did see the light of day (I Just Wasn't Made For These Times, "Bells Of Madness/Fantasy Is Reality", Orange Crate Art) tanked and went largely unheard. I have no comment on the Sean O'Hagan debacle. I just don't see how you can categorize these things as Beach Boys' momentum. Yeah, Brian was getting around, but it got the Beach Boys nowhere. If anything, it was another frustrating and typically crazy time for the group.
In addressing your quibble regarding my statement about Melinda, I thought I would reveal my source. It's Sheriff John Stone's Being A Beach Boys' Diehard For Fifty Years. Are you familiar with it? It's really good. The guy really knows his stuff. He thinks that it is highly unlikely that Brian Wilson would want to pack up and leave Southern California, his family and friends, the warm climate, his favorite stomping grounds, the many California studios, and the state that he immortalized in song - to move to Illinois. Why would he? To live next door to Joe Thomas? THAT was BRIAN'S idea or motivation? I'm sorry. I don't think so, emphasis on "think".
And finally, yes, I do put a lot of "blame" (your word, not mine, but it's interesting you would use it) on Melinda. Let me put it another way, a less negative way. Do you remember how, in the late 1970s/early 1980s, near the end of a Beach Boys' concert, if Brian Wilson was on stage, Carl Wilson would say to the audience, "We'd like to thank our beloved brother, Brian, very, very, very, VERY much for writing all of that beautiful music we played for you tonight..." Well, Sheriff John Stone THINKS that Melinda was very, very, very, VERY instrumental and influential in all of the decisions involved in Brian's life and career after they got married.
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