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Post by Kapitan on Aug 11, 2022 0:27:04 GMT
In a way those two albums (Love You and MIU) are so different, almost opposite, that it's very interesting that you rate them both so highly. But your explanations help make some sense of it.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 11, 2022 1:04:06 GMT
In a way those two albums ( Love You and MIU) are so different, almost opposite, that it's very interesting that you rate them both so highly. But your explanations help make some sense of it. I've always had a fascination with THE Brian Wilson that...came back...in 1976. He was obviously damaged and he was obviously different, but there was something about THAT Brian Wilson as opposed to the, um, earlier Brian Wilson that got to me. I don't think it was necessarily the underdog aspect or the "over the hill" artist reclaiming his rightful status that I found appealing, though that was something I followed intently. It was more wondering what and how much was still there. I was a newbie and I'm sure that contributed to my enthusiasm. I followed every step along the way, and being in the pre-internet, pre-social media era, it was difficult to gather a lot of information.
Not just Love You and M.I.U., but also 15 Big Ones were fascinating records. I could use other adjectives, too, but you just didn't know what Brian you were going to get with each successive album. With 15 Big Ones you got Spector. With Love You you got the adult/child. With M.I.U. you got a more relaxed, less complex artist. Brian recorded those three comeback albums in two years, and though all three are very different, there are some similarities with 15 Big Ones and Love You. I can remember experiencing several emotions, emotions that were all over the place. I was sad, happy, patient, impatient, optimistic, pessimistic, confused, and dedicated. I was rationalizing but also realistic. It wasn't easy being a Brian Wilson and The The Beach Boys fan in the late 70s because there were so many questions and not many answers.
All of the above contributed to my enjoyment and fascination with 15 Big Ones, Love You, and M.I.U. Album.
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Post by kds on Aug 11, 2022 12:17:31 GMT
I bought Love You the day it came out and I've loved it ever since. It encompasses everything I love about Brian Wilson - melody, arrangements, the 2 1/2 minute song, experimentation, quirkiness, emotion, and humor. I think there is more humor on Love You than maybe any other BB album including Smiley Smile. I just never get tired of it. 14 songs (that's important) - all originals, NO covers. Lead vocals spread out. However, I can't ignore the ragged vocals, especially Brian's and Dennis's. While I've made my peace with them and actually enjoy them in places, in my opinion, the ragged vocals will always keep Love You from absolute greatness - it's great but it's flawed. However, for me, it is easily the best BB album post-1974.
As I mentioned to Kapitan earlier, I'm struggling with M.I.U.'s placement. I sometimes think I am rewarding it for not being embarrassing - both with no bad vocals and no bad songs (see 15 Big Ones, Love You, and L.A. Light Album). M.I.U. is always a nice, fun, and yes, somewhat interesting album to listen to. While we'll probably never know the true extent of Brian's involvement, I do think it's a very "Brian" album. In addition to his excellent lead vocals, he's all over the background vocals, too. M.I.U.'s biggest weakness is that there aren't any BB classics on there, I'll admit that, but I give more credit to Brian's songs than most people do. I think there's a handful of some good to very good BW songs on M.I.U.
Yeah, I might be too hard on Friends, but like the aforementioned M.I.U. Album, I don't find any all-timers on Friends. And, at least with M.I.U. you had a couple singles. I do like a couple of Friends' songs very much ("Wake The World", "Busy Doin' Nothin'", and "Transcendental Meditation"), but I find the other ones (especially the title track and "Meant For You") overrated. And, it pains me to say this because I'm a huge fan of Dennis Wilson's songwriting, but I find "Be Still" and "Little Bird" to be among his weaker songs. I appreciate Friends' laid-back approach and I don't find it boring...it's the lack of greatness I guess.
Thanks Sheriff. I’ve never warmed to Brian’s output after the early/mid 70’s, but I will try to give Love You and M.I.U. Another chance. I don't play it very often, but I do enjoy MIU. I can't say the same for Love You. In fact, each time I've listened to it, I've liked it progressively less.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 11, 2022 12:48:33 GMT
If people are finished pillorying poor Sheriff John Stone, I'll volunteer for the bullseye next. Go ahead, tell me what I did wrong (and I'll tell you why you're mistaken)!
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Post by kds on Aug 11, 2022 12:56:08 GMT
Kaptain, the only thing (well, other than Love You obviously) that I'd disagree with about your graph is SDV2 being a C level album. The album definitely trails off on Side 2, but the first half of the album (IMHO) too good to be associated with KTSA and Party.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 11, 2022 13:23:09 GMT
Kaptain, the only thing (well, other than Love You obviously) that I'd disagree with about your graph is SDV2 being a C level album. The album definitely trails off on Side 2, but the first half of the album (IMHO) too good to be associated with KTSA and Party. I can see that, but I also do think it's much better than those two albums you mentioned, which is why they're at the end of that tier rather than the beginning of it. I definitely thought about having it as the last album in the B level, but with the joke track, two instrumentals, and a pretty bad "Louie Louie," I decided being the best of the Cs was appropriate. But I see it as like the difference between like 70-75 or so, it just happens to be on a letter-grade split.
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Post by kds on Aug 11, 2022 13:36:24 GMT
Kaptain, the only thing (well, other than Love You obviously) that I'd disagree with about your graph is SDV2 being a C level album. The album definitely trails off on Side 2, but the first half of the album (IMHO) too good to be associated with KTSA and Party. I can see that, but I also do think it's much better than those two albums you mentioned, which is why they're at the end of that tier rather than the beginning of it. I definitely thought about having it as the last album in the B level, but with the joke track, two instrumentals, and a pretty bad "Louie Louie," I decided being the best of the Cs was appropriate. But I see it as like the difference between like 70-75 or so, it just happens to be on a letter-grade split. That's fair. Any tips on getting your graphic to post?
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 11, 2022 13:41:32 GMT
Any tips on getting your graphic to post? First you just make it at the Tiermaker link B.E. shared early in the thread. When you're done, you can save or download the image. Do that.
Then to make it appear larger, like the more recent ones (as opposed to our early ones in the thread), what I did thanks to a tip from jk was go to postimages.org and upload the saved image there. Once done, there are a few different links available depending on what you want to do with it. I copied the one labeled "direct link." Then, as you are making your post here on the board, go to the Insert Image button and paste that link you copied from postimages.org.
That ought to do it.
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Post by kds on Aug 11, 2022 13:49:10 GMT
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 11, 2022 16:54:39 GMT
If people are finished pillorying poor Sheriff John Stone , I'll volunteer for the bullseye next. Go ahead, tell me what I did wrong (and I'll tell you why you're mistaken)!
You have some 'splainin' to do!
Biggest Agreement: Love You is so great, isn't it?
Biggest Disagreement: You have Today! in the third tier as the 7th best album. Do you really think there are six better BB albums than Today!?
Rated Too High: Friends and Wild Honey. I rambled on and on about Friends, but please tell me what is so great - and I mean great - about those two albums. Surf's Up at 5? Wow. I was also slightly surprised to see That's Why God Made The Radio ranked that high (actually it's not much higher than mine ). While I'll admit that the highs on that album are really high, it's also an album with no Carl Wilson, no Dennis Wilson, and very little Mike Love. And, lastly, you have L.A. (Light Album) above Little Deuce Coupe. Nooooo!
Rated Too Low: I think M.I.U. deserved a better fate (surprise), and I might've nudged Keepin' The Summer Alive up a notch or two. A little nitpicking, but I don't think Surfin' U.S.A. - while I agree isn't that strong of an album but does have "Surfin' U.S.A", "Lonely Sea", and "Shut Down" on it - belongs on the same tier as Summer In Paradise.
But, overall, very good rankings, Kapitan!
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 11, 2022 17:55:47 GMT
Biggest Agreement: Love You is so great, isn't it? Biggest Disagreement: You have Today! in the third tier as the 7th best album. Do you really think there are six better BB albums than Today!?
Rated Too High: Friends and Wild Honey. I rambled on and on about Friends, but please tell me what is so great - and I mean great - about those two albums. Surf's Up at 5? Wow. I was also slightly surprised to see That's Why God Made The Radio ranked that high (actually it's not much higher than mine ). While I'll admit that the highs on that album are really high, it's also an album with no Carl Wilson, no Dennis Wilson, and very little Mike Love. And, lastly, you have L.A. (Light Album) above Little Deuce Coupe. Nooooo! Rated Too Low: I think M.I.U. deserved a better fate (surprise), and I might've nudged Keepin' The Summer Alive up a notch or two. A little nitpicking, but I don't think Surfin' U.S.A. - while I agree isn't that strong of an album but does have "Surfin' U.S.A", "Lonely Sea", and "Shut Down" on it - belongs on the same tier as Summer In Paradise.
But, overall, very good rankings, Kapitan! That last line is funny: "other than the 10 albums whose placement I argued, good rankings!"
But taking them one at a time:
Love You is so great: Yes!
Today!: Yes, although to be fair ALL of these could easily slip around a few spots either way at any given time, and so they aren't anything I'd fight to the death (or to the pain) on, I do think there are about six better BB albums ... and in fact, I've listed them for you in approximate order! Seriously, this has long been one where I am out of step with most fans--especially about Side Two, actually. Don't get me wrong, it's a really, really good album. But I hate "Bull Session;" I don't like "Ronda," or "In the Back of My Mind;" I'm lukewarm on "I'm So Young" and the mixes of "Do You Wanna Dance" I grew with. So that's quite a bit of mediocrity or worse, for my taste. I love the rest, though. I mean love. It's as good as the band ever did.
What's so great about Friends and Wild Honey? Well, first, I don't know for sure that I'd call either album great, but that wasn't your question. Just putting it out there. What's great about Friends is the creativity of Brian Wilson's arrangements, making a wonderful sort of mostly low-key chamber pop, for lack of a better word. What's great about it are the songs "Meant For You," "Wake the World," and especially "Busy Doin Nothin." What's great about it is the same kind of lyrical absurd/naivete as we get on Love You in things like the latter two of the aforementioned plus "Be Here in the Mornin" and "When a Man Needs a Woman." As for Wild Honey, what's great is hearing mostly the band doing it themselves. What's great are the handful of great songs like "Darlin," "Aren't You Glad," "I'd Love Just Once to See You," "Let the Wind Blow." What's great was the resurrection of "Mama Says," or the surprisingly good take on "I Was Made to Love Her" (especially brought out in the Sunshine Tomorrow remix).
Surf's Up at 5: I think my love for this album is well documented. You have to remember that one of the main gripes people have with this album--"Feet"--is a song I don't just begrudgingly accept, but actually like. Quite a bit. And then that it has a handful of my favorites ever (the title track, "Tree") and really not a total clunker in the bunch? Yep. I stand behind it.
TWGMTR a little high: I fluctuate some on this, but I really think it holds up better than I'd ever expected (after having initially been better than I'd ever expected). And remember that for me, no Dennis and not a lot of Mike aren't the negatives they may be for others. I'd actually have enjoyed some more Mike if he could avoid being the Mike he had become, songwriting-wise.
LDC below LA: Without a moment's hesitation. I think LDC is OK, and I've slowly come around on some of that early music. But it's still nowhere near my favorite. And it's not as if I put LA at #1 or something, it's one spot below!
MIU deserves a better fate: I don't hate MIU at all. But I look at the albums ahead of it, and I can't make a strong argument any of them belong below it.
Nudge KTSA up a spot or two: Actually those last six in that tier, I could pretty easily reshuffle them any number of ways. I don't disagree. But I also don't agree. It could land anywhere in that territory for me, depending on my mood.
Surfin USA: Sorry, I don't like it. See LDC comment and double or triple it; Surfin USA just isn't for me.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 11, 2022 18:11:24 GMT
Biggest Agreement: Love You is so great, isn't it? Biggest Disagreement: You have Today! in the third tier as the 7th best album. Do you really think there are six better BB albums than Today!?
Rated Too High: Friends and Wild Honey. I rambled on and on about Friends, but please tell me what is so great - and I mean great - about those two albums. Surf's Up at 5? Wow. I was also slightly surprised to see That's Why God Made The Radio ranked that high (actually it's not much higher than mine ). While I'll admit that the highs on that album are really high, it's also an album with no Carl Wilson, no Dennis Wilson, and very little Mike Love. And, lastly, you have L.A. (Light Album) above Little Deuce Coupe. Nooooo! Rated Too Low: I think M.I.U. deserved a better fate (surprise), and I might've nudged Keepin' The Summer Alive up a notch or two. A little nitpicking, but I don't think Surfin' U.S.A. - while I agree isn't that strong of an album but does have "Surfin' U.S.A", "Lonely Sea", and "Shut Down" on it - belongs on the same tier as Summer In Paradise.
But, overall, very good rankings, Kapitan! That last line is funny: "other than the 10 albums whose placement I argued, good rankings!" No, I really do think your overall rankings are very good...OK, just good.
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Post by jk on Aug 11, 2022 20:22:05 GMT
I respect everyone's ranking. It is what it is. Although I do think mine is definitive.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 11, 2022 22:24:53 GMT
I respect everyone's ranking. It is what it is. Although I do think mine is definitive. Just wait. We'll get to you later.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 11, 2022 22:57:28 GMT
And another thing...I just wanted to compliment you on ranking 15 Big Ones ahead of Smiley Smile. Who'd a thunk it that the very flawed, overall disappointing, critical disaster album, 15 Big Ones, would be rated higher than an album - recorded and produced in 1967 by Brian Wilson (I know what the credit says) - which includes "Good Vibrations", "Heroes And Villains", "Vegetables", "With Me Tonight", "Wind Chimes", and "Wonderful". But, you know what? I agree with you. At least for now.
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