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Post by carllove on Aug 7, 2022 17:55:29 GMT
Hey, you managed to post it in such a way that it is large enough to read without clicking on it. So, well done...Mr. Technology! Ha, thanks. Well, after a modicum of farting around, I went to my old friend Postimage.org and clicked on "message board size". So yes, all's well that ends etc. I did that as well - but only because I couldn’t figure out any way to attach it on my iPad.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 9, 2022 22:58:50 GMT
Hey everybody, if it's OK, since it appears everyone who wanted to participate has participated (we might get one or two more), maybe we can start the fun critiques and comparisons for anybody who is game and wants to volunteer theirs. I'll go first. Fire away at mine!
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 9, 2022 23:04:29 GMT
Hey everybody, if it's OK, since it appears everyone who wanted to participate has participated (we might get one or two more), maybe we can start the fun critiques and comparisons for anybody who is game and wants to volunteer theirs. I'll go first. Fire away at mine! I assume kds will chime in once he's back from vacation, which ought to be tomorrow or the next day? So I say we may as well continue now, unless anybody wants to wait.
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Post by B.E. on Aug 9, 2022 23:31:42 GMT
SJS, allow me to repost my initial comments:
Compared to my list I see you were even more "strict" than I was - and I tried to be. (Well, only at the top, you were more forgiving at the bottom.) Our lists are actually quite similar. Not that I'm surprised. Personally, I went back and forth on including Today! (and possibly All Summer Long) as 'S' tier but if you're going back and forth on it, then it probably isn't, you know?
Our biggest difference is probably in the Smiley Smile - Friends era. But I remembered you weren't high on Wild Honey. I'm a little surprised you got Shut Down Vol. 2 as the 2nd highest 'B' and firmly in your top 10. We actually aren't that far off on Love You, that was one I would have ranked 'A' in the past but lowered in this instance. We also are both pretty big on 15 Big Ones - as one of the highest 'C's and ranked above more than a few albums. But, yeah, Stars & Stripes over Surfin Safari? Get that outta here!
And add this:
I must contest your placement of MIU as a 'B' tier album. Both on its face and in relation to the vast majority of your 'C' tier selections (perhaps with Wild Honey, Friends, Smiley Smile, and Surfin' Safari leading the way).
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 10, 2022 0:13:36 GMT
SJS, allow me to repost my initial comments: Compared to my list I see you were even more "strict" than I was - and I tried to be. (Well, only at the top, you were more forgiving at the bottom.) Our lists are actually quite similar. Not that I'm surprised. Personally, I went back and forth on including Today! (and possibly All Summer Long) as 'S' tier but if you're going back and forth on it, then it probably isn't, you know? Our biggest difference is probably in the Smiley Smile - Friends era. But I remembered you weren't high on Wild Honey. I'm a little surprised you got Shut Down Vol. 2 as the 2nd highest 'B' and firmly in your top 10. We actually aren't that far off on Love You, that was one I would have ranked 'A' in the past but lowered in this instance. We also are both pretty big on 15 Big Ones - as one of the highest 'C's and ranked above more than a few albums. But, yeah, Stars & Stripes over Surfin Safari? Get that outta here! And add this: I must contest your placement of MIU as a 'B' tier album. Both on its face and in relation to the vast majority of your 'C' tier selections (perhaps with Wild Honey, Friends, Smiley Smile, and Surfin' Safari leading the way). In regard to your first paragraph above, as I've been pontificating for a long time - and actually it recently surfaced again with our best/worst album songs - I really wish Brian/The Beach Boys/Capitol Records wouldn't have included those weak, filler-type skits/comedy/spoken word tracks and some instrumentals on their albums. They weakened the overall album ratings, not just back when they were released, but now in a historical perspective IMO. And, in conjunction with that, it frustrates me that other songs had to stay in the can when they could've added more merit to those already short albums. So, all of that said, I couldn't put Today! and All Summer Long on the same tier as Pet Sounds, which didn't have any of the aforementioned drawbacks.
Yes, I can put on the trifecta of Smiley Smile/Wild Honey/Friends and enjoy those albums very much, but I think Brian took a significant step backward in songwriting and production on those albums - and they are also super short to boot. I have problems finding GREAT SONGS on those albums, and on the previous 5-6 albums I could easily find a half dozen or more per album. Yeah, there's some nice stuff there, just not a lot of all-timers. Something else I've often said in the past is that I feel when Brian stopped working extensively with The Wrecking Crew, his work suffered significantly. I realize there were reasons for the change, but ultimately I feel the music suffered because of it.
I blame kds for my elevating Shut Down Volume 2 and demoting Surfin' Safari! No, seriously, I revisited both those albums recently with the best/worst song thread, and I re-realized how many great songs were on Shut Down Volume 2. Conversely, listening again to Surfin' Safari reinforced what I was already feeling - that is a strange, weird, and not musically exciting or interesting album. Those lyrics, that constant Dennis beat, the slightly Mickey Mouse harmonies... nah, I'm not a fan at all. I've always enjoyed Stars & Stripes. They picked the best songs. I didn't care that much which country artists they chose. It got the guys back together and sounding great, albeit just on the harmonies. It is an overall fun album. And well-produced. I appreciated that. I still do obviously. Long live Joe Thomas.
I struggle with M.I.U. Album, not my enjoyment of it, but where to rank it. I'll admit that I might go a bit high, so your point is well-taken. I tend to look at M.I.U.'s positives - Brian's vocals are always first, Brian's song contributions are usually second, and the fact that there aren't really any terrible or embarrassing songs is third. And, I don't take that third point lightly, especially post-1974. It didn't seem to have the baggage of several other BB albums. Hey, M.I.U. still featured all five original Beach Boys (yes, I know Dennis was mostly gone), it is a pleasant listen, and boy, did I have high hopes for the follow-up album (and was greatly disappointed).
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 10, 2022 11:47:57 GMT
I'm having a tough time criticizing the list much, even though several albums are out of whack compared to where I've put them. I think just having heard Sheriff John Stone both in this thread and elsewhere explain his opinions, there's not much to say! But if I were to name some disagreements, I'd say he's got 20/20, Little Deuce Coupe, Shut Down Vol 2, and MIU in particular too high. Christmas, too, but I've long since understood how he feels about Christmas music!
On the other hand, I'd put at least Friends, Wild Honey, and Surf's Up higher.
But it's not like he put Summer in Paradise #1 or anything.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 10, 2022 12:19:40 GMT
I'm having a tough time criticizing the list much, even though several albums are out of whack compared to where I've put them. I think just having heard Sheriff John Stone both in this thread and elsewhere explain his opinions, there's not much to say! But if I were to name some disagreements, I'd say he's got 20/20, Little Deuce Coupe, Shut Down Vol 2, and MIU in particular too high. Christmas, too, but I've long since understood how he feels about Christmas music!
On the other hand, I'd put at least Friends, Wild Honey, and Surf's Up higher.
But it's not like he put Summer in Paradise #1 or anything.
I'm glad you mentioned the Christmas album because I did struggle with that particular ranking. I've been critical of the Christmas album in the past, mostly because of too many slow songs and terrible sequencing. But, in the end, because of some of the best lead vocals in Brian's career, a couple of great songs IMO (Little Saint Nick, We Three Kings, Frosty The Snowman, White Christmas, even Santa Claus Is Coming To Town), and my overall love of Christmas music, I gave it a reprieve by allowing it onto the third tier (however, it is at the very end). Also, I just couldn't put it ahead of 15 Big Ones.
I was going to post that I should give Smiley Smile/Wild Honey/Friends another serious re-evaluation, but I feel that I have done that several times. I just don't pull them out and listen to them much. And, while I enjoyed Sunshine Tomorrow somewhat, it was, in the end, the actual music/songs that kept me from loving it. There is another thing that keeps me from embracing those three albums. I always felt that those three albums back-to-back-back had an irreparable, disastrous effect on the band, one that they never recovered from. Brian did what he wanted to do, he recorded what he wanted to record, he followed his art, his muse, and the guys followed him...right off a cliff.
And what an improvement 20/20 was! Might be the most underrated BB album of all time - but obviously not by me! It has a little bit of everything and a lot of it is great. Repeat great. And I wanted to recognize it by placing it on Tier 2.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 10, 2022 13:09:42 GMT
And what an improvement 20/20 was! Might be the most underrated BB album of all time - but obviously not by me! It has a little bit of everything and a lot of it is great. Repeat great. And I wanted to recognize it by placing it on Tier 2. While I don't go as far as Dennis, who said in the early-mid 70s he thought it was the worst Beach Boys album to date, I otherwise disagree with everything above except "it has a little bit of everything."
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 10, 2022 13:21:34 GMT
And what an improvement 20/20 was! Might be the most underrated BB album of all time - but obviously not by me! It has a little bit of everything and a lot of it is great. Repeat great. And I wanted to recognize it by placing it on Tier 2. While I don't go as far as Dennis, who said in the early-mid 70s he thought it was the worst Beach Boys album to date, I otherwise disagree with everything above except "it has a little bit of everything." I never saw that quote by Dennis. Wow, that really surprises me, especially how much Dennis was represented on 20/20. Oh, I think 20/20 has significant greatness, at least significant very goodness :
- Do It Again - I Can Hear Music - Time To Get Alone - Our Prayer - Cabinessence
...and "I Went To Sleep" is pretty good, too. I also think, despite its composer, that "Never Learn Not To Love" is a very good song. "Cottonfields"? Should I mention that I think "The Nearest Faraway Place" is a good song? OK, I won't...
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 10, 2022 13:38:50 GMT
Dennis said it was because it was fake, basically: that they more or less put it together without Brian, and pretended Brian was involved. Obviously we had a good amount of Brian's music on there, but it was mostly earlier stuff that they finished off, etc. So to be fair, he wasn't saying it was the worst music. I think it was more like Brian hating Smile or something: the bad mental associations.
I'm sure I've posted that interview, but maybe not. I'll see if I can find it. I want to say it was from around 1973 or 74? I think it was pre-POB, but during its creation, so maybe a bit later yet.
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Post by kds on Aug 10, 2022 13:51:37 GMT
Here's my attempt So, I couldn't figure out how to load the damn image, so here we go, the old fashioned way S - Pet Sounds A - Surfer Girl, All Summer Long, Today, SDSN, Sunflower, Surf's Up, Holland, TWGMTR B - Surfin USA, Little Deuce Coupe, SDV2, Christmas, Friends, 20/20, CATP, BB85 C - Surfin Safari, Party, Wild Honey, 15 Big Ones, MIU, LA, KTSA, Still Cruisin D - Smiley Smile, Love You, SIP, Stars and Stripes
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 10, 2022 14:24:47 GMT
Dennis said it was because it was fake, basically: that they more or less put it together without Brian, and pretended Brian was involved. Obviously we had a good amount of Brian's music on there, but it was mostly earlier stuff that they finished off, etc. So to be fair, he wasn't saying it was the worst music. I think it was more like Brian hating Smile or something: the bad mental associations.
I'm sure I've posted that interview, but maybe not. I'll see if I can find it. I want to say it was from around 1973 or 74? I think it was pre-POB, but during its creation, so maybe a bit later yet.
I'm sorry, Sheriff John Stone, but I can't seem to find that video. I was thinking it might have been with Pete Fornatale, but the ones I just found didn't seem to have that content. And trying to skim the old YouTube and Interviews threads seems impossible, with so many of the old videos we'd linked to no longer being available.
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Post by carllove on Aug 10, 2022 19:30:56 GMT
Hey everybody, if it's OK, since it appears everyone who wanted to participate has participated (we might get one or two more), maybe we can start the fun critiques and comparisons for anybody who is game and wants to volunteer theirs. I'll go first. Fire away at mine! Ok Sheriff, I just never got Love You. You seem to be a fan - putting it in the A tier. Why? What's so great about that album in your opinion? MIU - Is there something I'm missing? What do you like about it? B tier really? Have you ever just chilled listening to Friends with a glass of wine while doing dishes. It is an amazing experience. Guess it doesn't chill you out? It took me several years to get into Wild Honey - so I can get your C tier. Now it's one of my favorites.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 10, 2022 20:31:07 GMT
Hey everybody, if it's OK, since it appears everyone who wanted to participate has participated (we might get one or two more), maybe we can start the fun critiques and comparisons for anybody who is game and wants to volunteer theirs. I'll go first. Fire away at mine! Ok Sheriff, I just never got Love You. You seem to be a fan - putting it in the A tier. Why? What's so great about that album in your opinion? MIU - Is there something I'm missing? What do you like about it? B tier really? Have you ever just chilled listening to Friends with a glass of wine while doing dishes. It is an amazing experience. Guess it doesn't chill you out? It took me several years to get into Wild Honey - so I can get your C tier. Now it's one of my favorites. I bought Love You the day it came out and I've loved it ever since. It encompasses everything I love about Brian Wilson - melody, arrangements, the 2 1/2 minute song, experimentation, quirkiness, emotion, and humor. I think there is more humor on Love You than maybe any other BB album including Smiley Smile. I just never get tired of it. 14 songs (that's important) - all originals, NO covers. Lead vocals spread out. However, I can't ignore the ragged vocals, especially Brian's and Dennis's. While I've made my peace with them and actually enjoy them in places, in my opinion, the ragged vocals will always keep Love You from absolute greatness - it's great but it's flawed. However, for me, it is easily the best BB album post-1974.
As I mentioned to Kapitan earlier, I'm struggling with M.I.U.'s placement. I sometimes think I am rewarding it for not being embarrassing - both with no bad vocals and no bad songs (see 15 Big Ones, Love You, and L.A. Light Album). M.I.U. is always a nice, fun, and yes, somewhat interesting album to listen to. While we'll probably never know the true extent of Brian's involvement, I do think it's a very "Brian" album. In addition to his excellent lead vocals, he's all over the background vocals, too. M.I.U.'s biggest weakness is that there aren't any BB classics on there, I'll admit that, but I give more credit to Brian's songs than most people do. I think there's a handful of some good to very good BW songs on M.I.U.
Yeah, I might be too hard on Friends, but like the aforementioned M.I.U. Album, I don't find any all-timers on Friends. And, at least with M.I.U. you had a couple singles. I do like a couple of Friends' songs very much ("Wake The World", "Busy Doin' Nothin'", and "Transcendental Meditation"), but I find the other ones (especially the title track and "Meant For You") overrated. And, it pains me to say this because I'm a huge fan of Dennis Wilson's songwriting, but I find "Be Still" and "Little Bird" to be among his weaker songs. I appreciate Friends' laid-back approach and I don't find it boring...it's the lack of greatness I guess.
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Post by carllove on Aug 11, 2022 0:02:32 GMT
Ok Sheriff, I just never got Love You. You seem to be a fan - putting it in the A tier. Why? What's so great about that album in your opinion? MIU - Is there something I'm missing? What do you like about it? B tier really? Have you ever just chilled listening to Friends with a glass of wine while doing dishes. It is an amazing experience. Guess it doesn't chill you out? It took me several years to get into Wild Honey - so I can get your C tier. Now it's one of my favorites. I bought Love You the day it came out and I've loved it ever since. It encompasses everything I love about Brian Wilson - melody, arrangements, the 2 1/2 minute song, experimentation, quirkiness, emotion, and humor. I think there is more humor on Love You than maybe any other BB album including Smiley Smile. I just never get tired of it. 14 songs (that's important) - all originals, NO covers. Lead vocals spread out. However, I can't ignore the ragged vocals, especially Brian's and Dennis's. While I've made my peace with them and actually enjoy them in places, in my opinion, the ragged vocals will always keep Love You from absolute greatness - it's great but it's flawed. However, for me, it is easily the best BB album post-1974.
As I mentioned to Kapitan earlier, I'm struggling with M.I.U.'s placement. I sometimes think I am rewarding it for not being embarrassing - both with no bad vocals and no bad songs (see 15 Big Ones, Love You, and L.A. Light Album). M.I.U. is always a nice, fun, and yes, somewhat interesting album to listen to. While we'll probably never know the true extent of Brian's involvement, I do think it's a very "Brian" album. In addition to his excellent lead vocals, he's all over the background vocals, too. M.I.U.'s biggest weakness is that there aren't any BB classics on there, I'll admit that, but I give more credit to Brian's songs than most people do. I think there's a handful of some good to very good BW songs on M.I.U.
Yeah, I might be too hard on Friends, but like the aforementioned M.I.U. Album, I don't find any all-timers on Friends. And, at least with M.I.U. you had a couple singles. I do like a couple of Friends' songs very much ("Wake The World", "Busy Doin' Nothin'", and "Transcendental Meditation"), but I find the other ones (especially the title track and "Meant For You") overrated. And, it pains me to say this because I'm a huge fan of Dennis Wilson's songwriting, but I find "Be Still" and "Little Bird" to be among his weaker songs. I appreciate Friends' laid-back approach and I don't find it boring...it's the lack of greatness I guess.
Thanks Sheriff. I’ve never warmed to Brian’s output after the early/mid 70’s, but I will try to give Love You and M.I.U. Another chance.
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