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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 4, 2022 17:15:29 GMT
Al's lead vocal on the Carnegie Hall version of "Don't Worry Baby" is waaaaay superior to his vocal of the same song on In Concert.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 5, 2022 3:50:25 GMT
Check this out! The "Sail On Sailor" songwriting session edited into a more seamless piece.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 5, 2022 14:07:37 GMT
I love the "Mess of Help" track and background vocals mix. There is so much happening in that song (and of course you know I've always loved it, the way I go on and on about it). To me, it's maybe the best example of their blending the rougher, rootsier sounds with their cleverness and vocal abilities. Maybe my favorite song of the Ricky/Blondie era.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 5, 2022 14:41:11 GMT
Does it strike anyone else as funny that they did a single mix for "Beaks of Eagles" in 1973? I mean, while the music is sufficiently catchy to potentially have been a single, the spoken-word interludes and fluttering flute don't exactly scream Top 40 radio. I wonder if they ever truly considered it, or if it was just something Al insisted on and had done on his own (with no real chance of it being released).
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 5, 2022 14:50:07 GMT
Al's lead vocal on the Carnegie Hall version of "Don't Worry Baby" is waaaaay superior to his vocal of the same song on In Concert. It's cool how Carl takes the high part in the chorus, too. (I'll bet Al appreciated it too! Doing that whole song would be very taxing on the voice.) Carl just adds that sweetness...
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Post by lonelysummer on Dec 5, 2022 21:48:14 GMT
I think that's the thing about Ricky AND Blondie: they really upped the (instrumental) musicianship in the group. And both were versatile, too. I'd have loved to see that band, but with modern sound systems so they could better hear everything on stage the way groups can now. I agree with your term "upped the (instrumental) musicianship in the group". I've been contemplating an extended post for a while now, and this isn't the thread for it (I don't think ), but I wonder if Ricky's leaving - and Dennis's return to the drums in concert - had a significant effect on the band stopping the performance of some of the then recent, more complex, rockier songs - and returning to the oldies that Dennis could handle. I just can't hear Dennis playing on some/many of those Carnegie Hall songs the way Ricky handled them. I realize there were other reasons for the oldies, too...just sayin'. It puzzles me that we talk about Dennis like he was a substandard drummer. I always loved his drumming. I don't always love his singing or songwriting.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 6, 2022 0:32:31 GMT
I agree with your term "upped the (instrumental) musicianship in the group". I've been contemplating an extended post for a while now, and this isn't the thread for it (I don't think ), but I wonder if Ricky's leaving - and Dennis's return to the drums in concert - had a significant effect on the band stopping the performance of some of the then recent, more complex, rockier songs - and returning to the oldies that Dennis could handle. I just can't hear Dennis playing on some/many of those Carnegie Hall songs the way Ricky handled them. I realize there were other reasons for the oldies, too...just sayin'. It puzzles me that we talk about Dennis like he was a substandard drummer. I always loved his drumming. I don't always love his singing or songwriting. Dennis Wilson was a substandard drummer. I can't think of many (any?) other major rock & roll groups where he would've succeeded as a drummer, both live and in the studio. But that's for another thread. This I will say. Listen to those Carl & The Passion songs like "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone" or "Here She Comes". Or even listen to some of those Holland outtakes like "Hard Times" or "We Got Love". Dennis could not duplicate the drumming on those songs. And then there's the Carnegie Hall concert. I'm sorry but those songs are driven in a way that Dennis could not pull off. He didn't have the chops.
Hey, you know I love Dennis' work, and I've posted about it several times on this board and other boards. His songwriting was special, his singing could touch you, but I'm afraid his drumming was...limited. Listen to Ricky Fataar on this set. Yes, the style(s) of music was different, but it's like listening to another band, and that's in large part to the drumming. But, hey, no problem...all's good.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 6, 2022 0:37:21 GMT
Yep. Dennis was a fine rock and roll drummer. When the songs weren't technically demanding, no complaints here. He was a good musician, and he got done what needed to be done. But he wasn't a particularly good instrumentalist (on anything). Just like his keyboard playing was basic, but got the job done for what he was doing, that's what his drumming was like. He'd be fine in AC/DC or something. But Ricky was miles above him, technically.
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Post by lonelysummer on Dec 6, 2022 3:20:36 GMT
Yep. Dennis was a fine rock and roll drummer. When the songs weren't technically demanding, no complaints here. He was a good musician, and he got done what needed to be done. But he wasn't a particularly good instrumentalist (on anything). Just like his keyboard playing was basic, but got the job done for what he was doing, that's what his drumming was like. He'd be fine in AC/DC or something. But Ricky was miles above him, technically. His piano playing was basic? Was Dennis given the wrong instrument back in 1961? If not Dennis, then who should have been the Beach Boys drummer? Brian? Maybe they should have given the drums to Mike and had Dennis be the lead singer. I suppose Ringo Starr wasn't a good drummer, either. I love what Dennis did on the drums. There was a big drop in the energy level when he wasn't at the shows. I personally love Dennis' drumming more than his songwriting or his singing - although his voice was nice enough until he drugs and alcohol ravaged it. I'm never been a member of "The church of Dennis Wilson" or "the church of Pacific Ocean Blue"; but he had his moments. Every time I hear the opening track on Sunflower, I get excited. What a great one-two punch - "Slip on Through" and "This Whole World".
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 6, 2022 12:20:19 GMT
Yes, his piano playing was also basic. No one would mistake him for a virtuoso.
I think it's important to keep in mind, none of this is an insult! The guy had no training, not a lot of technique, no real theory. He--as is the case with the overwhelming majority (I'd bet) of rock musicians--made do. Obviously he did just fine for himself. None of this is to say I don't like Dennis's drumming. It's just stating reality It's like asking whether B.B. King was technically a better guitarist than Steve Vai, or Andres Segovia. The answer is clearly "no." But do I like B.B. King? Yes! Was he great (at what he did)? Yes! But he was limited in what he could do by his level of technique. So was Dennis.
Ringo has nothing to do with this, really, other than I guess fitting into that second paragraph above in his own way. But I'd put Ringo well above Dennis as a drummer.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 6, 2022 14:33:19 GMT
In yesterday's listening, I was struck by the newly released Brian instrumentals: "Spark in the Dark," "Rooftop Harry," and "Body Talk - Grease Job."
First, these being among the long-speculated upon "bedroom tapes," I think it's remarkable how little the community seems to be talking about them. Or maybe they are at other boards? But I'm thinking that 15, 20 years ago, that's all anyone would have been talking about, waiting for, discussing. I don't know that much of anyone mentioned them among the things they were most excited to hear, and I don't think anyone has mentioned them since the release. Until now!
As I listen to them, I'm fascinated. They aren't masterpieces or anything, but there are some very interesting things in them. And I can't help but wonder what Brian intended for them. Were there melodies? Lyrics?
"Spark in the Dark" at least seems like it must have been intended as a song with vocals. It also sounds to me almost halfway between Smile and Love You--ironic, since in terms of time, it was pretty much halfway between those--with the segments of contrary motion up and down making what Philip Lambert describes as a "wedge shape" in his Inside the Music of Brian Wilson being very much like the stuff of the former, while the blunt jabbing of the parts, especially in interplay between instruments, reminds me of the latter. But it's not subtle, it's a pummeling.
The other two are more interesting, and sound to me very much of the '70s. But "Rooftop Harry," which first seems like it could be a slick musical backdrop to the opening scene of some film, then has those odd synth stabs. "Body Talk - Grease Job" is rhythmically very interesting, almost funky. I love the sliding standup bass! And the pianos are quite nimble in spots, making me wonder whether that's Brian. I feel like it almost has to be, since I struggle to imagine him describing that to somebody else.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 9, 2022 12:42:44 GMT
Here is Mojo's 4-star review of Sail On Sailor. And I have to admit I was briefly befuddled when I looked at the review's publication date, which reads "6 12 22." So long ago!? But of course, Mojo is British, and thus uses the Day-Month-Year date format.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 9, 2022 13:14:10 GMT
OK, two critical points...
I'm no musician, but on the Carnegie Hall "Heroes And Villains", is Al very off-key on the "I've been in this town so long..." part?
And, on the "California Saga (California)" - 1973 Single Mix, at the 3 second mark, I hear a click. Is that intentional? Are they trying to bring out some instrument that was buried in the original mix, though I don't know why they would. It's very distracting. I can't stop hearing it - and I want to focus entirely on Brian's rare vocal.
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Dec 9, 2022 13:58:27 GMT
OK, two critical points... I'm no musician, but on the Carnegie Hall "Heroes And Villains", is Al very off-key on the "I've been in this town so long..." part? And, on the "California Saga (California)" - 1973 Single Mix, at the 3 second mark, I hear a click. Is that intentional? Are they trying to bring out some instrument that was buried in the original mix, though I don't know why they would. It's very distracting. I can't stop hearing it - and I want to focus entirely on Brian's rare vocal. What is Brian's rare vocal? Or am I misunderstanding, and you just mean rare for the era?
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 9, 2022 14:09:12 GMT
OK, two critical points... I'm no musician, but on the Carnegie Hall "Heroes And Villains", is Al very off-key on the "I've been in this town so long..." part? And, on the "California Saga (California)" - 1973 Single Mix, at the 3 second mark, I hear a click. Is that intentional? Are they trying to bring out some instrument that was buried in the original mix, though I don't know why they would. It's very distracting. I can't stop hearing it - and I want to focus entirely on Brian's rare vocal. What is Brian's rare vocal? Or am I misunderstanding, and you just mean rare for the era? Rare for 1969-1976, rare for the Holland album, rare for the Sail On Sailor boxed set. As a lead singer, after Friends and until 15 Big Ones, Brian basically disappeared as a lead singer for The Beach Boys.
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