|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 29, 2021 14:45:08 GMT
You raise some good questions, and without appearing wishy-washy, I would say the answers are "yes" and "no".
I think any objective Beach Boys' fan would consider the big three elements - songwriting, production, and performance - of the late 1970s to be inferior to that of the 1960s and early 1970s. Obviously there are exceptions and your mileage may vary.
On the other hand, the late 1970s did have their merits. I mean, the guys didn't all of a sudden lose all of their talent. There were highlights if you had the determination and patience to sort through the lowlights. Maybe the kind thing to say is that there just weren't AS MANY highlights as the past, and you had to...adjust...to the changes.
As you mentioned, they did have some (significant) chart success in the late 1970s, but this is why I think that occurred. The Beach Boys were HUGE from 1974-1976 and that popularity lasted a few years, at least through 1979. As someone who lived through that era, I don't think it can be underestimated how big the band was at that time. The group was still performing sold out concerts, they were consistently on TV, and the Greatest Hits comps were still selling well. So, I think the band was basically riding that wave of popularity, and I think that resulted in diehards and newer, curious fans buying the singles. Now, that being said, as I have been mentioning in the Single Of The Week thread, I think some of those late 1970s' singles could've/should've actually done better on the charts. Those selected singles were well-produced and performed, and as good as any other music on the singles' charts at that time.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Nov 29, 2021 14:52:46 GMT
I think The Beach Boys released some decent material in the late 70s, but even their best work from that era pales in comparison to what they were doing early in the decade. If I were trying to convert somebody to The Beach Boys, I probably wouldn't use anything from that era.
And, the fact many of their peers were releasing very high quality material in the second half of the 70s makes the BB look worse by comparison.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Nov 29, 2021 15:05:59 GMT
Personally I actually agree with the narrative I started from: I do think the early '70s were significantly better in every respect--despite commercial failures--than were the later '70s.
To what do you attribute the artistic/commercial disconnect? Is it as simple as riding the wave of nostalgia and their assorted greatest hits comps so that people were more aware of their singles in the later '70s?
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 29, 2021 15:08:25 GMT
I think The Beach Boys released some decent material in the late 70s, but even their best work from that era pales in comparison to what they were doing early in the decade. If I were trying to convert somebody to The Beach Boys, I probably wouldn't use anything from that era. And, the fact many of their peers were releasing very high quality material in the second half of the 70s makes the BB look worse by comparison. I have to respectfully disagree with you, kds. I'll just cherry-pick a few A-sides/B-sides, ones which I think are the best from that era. I think "It's OK", "Good Timin'", "Baby Blue", "Lady Lynda", and "It's A Beautiful Day" are more than respectable, and I think they could sit next to the band's earlier material from any era. Also, remember the fluke hit they had with "Come Go With Me" (a song recorded in the late 1970s) which was an excellent cover. Again, overall the late 1970s material pales, but not all of it.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 29, 2021 15:14:48 GMT
Personally I actually agree with the narrative I started from: I do think the early '70s were significantly better in every respect--despite commercial failures--than were the later '70s.
To what do you attribute the artistic/commercial disconnect? Is it as simple as riding the wave of nostalgia and their assorted greatest hits comps so that people were more aware of their singles in the later '70s?
It's not that simple but riding the wave of nostalgia and the greatest hits comps were very, very significant. I would also add:
1. Brian Wilson was not songwriting as proficiently as the past in quality and quantity. 2. Brian and Dennis Wilson could no longer sing...well. 3. The production values were seriously lacking.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Nov 29, 2021 15:22:08 GMT
Personally I actually agree with the narrative I started from: I do think the early '70s were significantly better in every respect--despite commercial failures--than were the later '70s.
To what do you attribute the artistic/commercial disconnect? Is it as simple as riding the wave of nostalgia and their assorted greatest hits comps so that people were more aware of their singles in the later '70s?
It's not that simple but riding the wave of nostalgia and the greatest hits comps were very, very significant. I would also add:
1. Brian Wilson was not songwriting as proficiently as the past in quality and quantity. 2. Brian and Dennis Wilson could no longer sing...well. 3. The production values were seriously lacking.
Sorry, but isn't that contrary to the explanation of what made them (more) successful in the later '70s? If it's not as simple as the nostalgia/hits comps, then those three things wouldn't be be additional factors to the success, but drawbacks to more success. (Which I think they are.)
To rephrase it, what besides nostalgia/hits comps best explains their (relative) commercial success in the later '70s?
|
|
|
Post by kds on Nov 29, 2021 15:28:00 GMT
I think The Beach Boys released some decent material in the late 70s, but even their best work from that era pales in comparison to what they were doing early in the decade. If I were trying to convert somebody to The Beach Boys, I probably wouldn't use anything from that era. And, the fact many of their peers were releasing very high quality material in the second half of the 70s makes the BB look worse by comparison. I have to respectfully disagree with you, kds. I'll just cherry-pick a few A-sides/B-sides, ones which I think are the best from that era. I think "It's OK", "Good Timin'", "Baby Blue", "Lady Lynda", and "It's A Beautiful Day" are more than respectable, and I think they could sit next to the band's earlier material from any era. Also, remember the fluke hit they had with "Come Go With Me" (a song recorded in the late 1970s) which was an excellent cover. Again, overall the late 1970s material pales, but not all of it. While I like those songs, I wouldn't use any of them to try to convert people to The Beach Boys.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 29, 2021 15:43:26 GMT
It's not that simple but riding the wave of nostalgia and the greatest hits comps were very, very significant. I would also add:
1. Brian Wilson was not songwriting as proficiently as the past in quality and quantity. 2. Brian and Dennis Wilson could no longer sing...well. 3. The production values were seriously lacking.
Sorry, but isn't that contrary to the explanation of what made them (more) successful in the later '70s? If it's not as simple as the nostalgia/hits comps, then those three things wouldn't be be additional factors to the success, but drawbacks to more success. (Which I think they are.)
To rephrase it, what besides nostalgia/hits comps best explains their (relative) commercial success in the later '70s?
Well, I think they were smart enough (see, I can give them some credit ) in picking Brian's two best songs - "It's OK" and "Good Timin'" - and getting them out there. However, that's different from getting a consistent stream of great BW songs to release. So, in that respect "It's OK" and "Good Timin'" were exceptions. Unfortunately, it was not that way across the board. Also, there was no way, from 1976-1979, that records featuring Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson as lead vocalists were gonna be hit singles (yeah, yeah, I know Dennis sang the tag on "It's OK"). In the 1960s and early 1970s, there was a good chance of getting excellent lead vocals from both.
I think the Beach Boys had some relative chart success in the 1970s DESPITE the production values on the albums. "It's OK" was one of the better-produced songs from 15 Big Ones. Same with "Come Go With Me" on M.I.U. Album. And "Good Timin'" and "Lady Lynda" from L.A. (Light Album). I know I'm repeating myself, but for that short period of time, they made some really good recordings and were smart enough to release them as singles. THAT wasn't always the case. I don't know if I'm explaining what I mean well enough. It was just a very small window and a very small group of songs to choose from. The singles were not indicative of the albums they resided on. The singles were better than the albums. Most people look at 15 Big Ones, M.I.U Album, and L.A. (Light Album) and consider them...subpar.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Nov 29, 2021 16:06:32 GMT
Sorry, but isn't that contrary to the explanation of what made them (more) successful in the later '70s? If it's not as simple as the nostalgia/hits comps, then those three things wouldn't be be additional factors to the success, but drawbacks to more success. (Which I think they are.)
To rephrase it, what besides nostalgia/hits comps best explains their (relative) commercial success in the later '70s?
Well, I think they were smart enough (see, I can give them some credit ) in picking Brian's two best songs - "It's OK" and "Good Timin'" - and getting them out there. However, that's different from getting a consistent stream of great BW songs to release. So, in that respect "It's OK" and "Good Timin'" were exceptions. Unfortunately, it was not that way across the board. Also, there was no way, from 1976-1979, that records featuring Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson as lead vocalists were gonna be hit singles (yeah, yeah, I know Dennis sang the tag on "It's OK"). In the 1960s and early 1970s, there was a good chance of getting excellent lead vocals from both.
I think the Beach Boys had some relative chart success in the 1970s DESPITE the production values on the albums. "It's OK" was one of the better-produced songs from 15 Big Ones. Same with "Come Go With Me" on M.I.U. Album. And "Good Timin'" and "Lady Lynda" from L.A. (Light Album). I know I'm repeating myself, but for that short period of time, they made some really good recordings and were smart enough to release them as singles. THAT wasn't always the case. I don't know if I'm explaining what I mean well enough. It was just a very small window and a very small group of songs to choose from. The singles were not indicative of the albums they resided on. The singles were better than the albums. Most people look at 15 Big Ones, M.I.U Album, and L.A. (Light Album) and consider them...subpar.
Despite it's cult following amongst BB diehards, I'd include Love You here too. And that's not just my resistance to the album, the songs from the album almost never appear on compilations or setlists
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Nov 29, 2021 16:29:28 GMT
OK, so Sheriff John Stone, I'm going to try to restate your opinion as to why the Beach Boys had some relative chart success in the later '70s: it's partly because of the strong wave of nostalgia (which fueled several really strong greatest hits compilations), and partly because, despite its very uneven output in this era, the group did a reasonably good job writing, recording, and producing a few songs, and had the sense to release those as singles. Is that roughly what you're saying?
If so, it makes some sense, but still leaves a hole for me as to why the early '70s didn't have something similar happening. I think a lot of people would say the early '70 singles (and albums) were better. My guess is you'd say those early '70s singles might have been good, but they didn't sound like what the public wanted from the Beach Boys.
If I'm right about that guess, then I guess the other way to explain the later '70s' relative chart success, at least with singles, is that they more resembled what the public wanted from the band. And that points back to the nostalgia wave, in my opinion!
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 29, 2021 17:04:33 GMT
OK, so Sheriff John Stone , I'm going to try to restate your opinion as to why the Beach Boys had some relative chart success in the later '70s: it's partly because of the strong wave of nostalgia (which fueled several really strong greatest hits compilations), and partly because, despite its very uneven output in this era, the group did a reasonably good job writing, recording, and producing a few songs, and had the sense to release those as singles. Is that roughly what you're saying?
If so, it makes some sense, but still leaves a hole for me as to why the early '70s didn't have something similar happening. I think a lot of people would say the early '70 singles (and albums) were better. My guess is you'd say those early '70s singles might have been good, but they didn't sound like what the public wanted from the Beach Boys.
If I'm right about that guess, then I guess the other way to explain the later '70s' relative chart success, at least with singles, is that they more resembled what the public wanted from the band. And that points back to the nostalgia wave, in my opinion!
For the first and second paragraphs - yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
For the third paragraph...yes and no. I STILL don't think the listening public was as enamored with Surf's Up, Carl And The Passions, and Holland - especially the singles - as much as some BB fans were. Was it really THAT good? Yeah, it was cool and, I guess, different. But cool and different don't always lead to great records or commercially successful records. Which leads to the nostalgia point. That part did play some part in the group's commercial decline. They couldn't escape it as much as they tried, and they tried! So, they slowly but surely reverted back to the earlier hedonistic (?) subjects and sound. Endless Summer only validated their suspicions though they were already experiencing it in their live shows. The fans will tell you what they want to hear. And buy.
This is much deeper topic than it appears on the surface.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Nov 29, 2021 19:59:58 GMT
Re the 3rd paragraph, that part wasn't trying to summarize your thoughts anymore, that was my own little extension/conclusion on the consequences.
I do totally agree, though, that the public wasn't as enamored with that early '70s material as fans are. In fact, that's kind of the underlying point of the question: why did they fail with what those who know it consider to be generally superior music while going on to (sort-of) succeed later with worse music?
There is a lot that goes into these things, of course. I think you've made a strong point that in addition to the nostalgia factor, however up-and-down the later material was, they were doing a relatively good job of making strong singles ... at least a few of them. Enough to keep something on the charts every so often. They may have hated one another by then, led totally different and separate lives, and disagreed about music, but in the end, they were still very talented and capable.
It seems to me, then, that the internal factor (the band, whatever their issues, still being sufficiently capable of really nailing hits when they had to) leading to occasional chart success later makes the relative chart failure in the first half of the decade even more surprising. That's what makes me think more about the external factor of the nostalgia wave.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Dec 21, 2021 15:22:56 GMT
Thinking this morning about Carl's untimely passing, how do people think the Beach Boys' trajectory as that brand's entity would have changed had he lived?
On one hand, I think it's easy to say the old "Carl was the peacekeeper" line and assume he not only would have kept Al in the group with himself, Mike, and Bruce, but maybe even brought back the prodigal son himself, Brian. Instead of BW's rejuvenated solo career, we get a latter-day flourishing of the Beach Boys and we all lived happily ever after.
But on the other, Carl and Brian weren't exactly best of friends in those years. I wouldn't imply they didn't love one another deeply, but professionally they hadn't exactly been simpatico. I think it's possible he would have kept the Mike-Carl-Al-Bruce group together, but with Brian still basically outside the group except for reunion events. After all, that had been the case for a decade before Carl died.
And of course it's possible (though I have to think highly unlikely) that Carl, Brian, Al (and eventually Blondie) align and it's Mike (and Bruce) who have to either get with the program or go off as the touring band "Mike Love of the Beach Boys feat. Bruce Johnston."
Without necessarily getting into your preference, what do you think would actually have happened had Carl lived?
|
|
|
Post by kds on Dec 21, 2021 15:35:47 GMT
I do think Carl's survival would've probably lead to a continuation of the Mike, Carl, Al, and Bruce touring line up.
But, I wonder exactly how long that would've lasted. Mike seemed to be the guy who is really into being a very prolific tourer. Meanwhile, Carl, late in his life, was the one who put the kibosh on the mid 90s BB reunion album, and he was one of the ones who really seemed to tire of the touring jukebox mentality. So, I could see a scenario where he still winds up leaving the group, or retiring from The Beach Boys, at some point. Now, I guess the question is, with Carl alive as a voting member of BRI, would he have signed off on given Mike the exclusive rights to tour as "The Beach Boys."
Maybe Carl resumes his solo career? Maybe he keeps a low profile, adding a lead vocal to a Brian album from time to time. I can see a situation where, regardless of when Carl splits, Brian would still embark in on a solo career if there doesn't seem to be a chance of a new BB album, which judging by the events of the mid 1990s, seemed to be the case.
Maybe Carl settles into a bit of a John Deacon role while the other guys tour.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 21, 2021 15:38:21 GMT
I think things would've played out pretty much as they did. For reasons that we don't have to get into here, Brian was gonna have a solo career and not be a Beach Boy (as long as Mike was "in charge"). Even with a possible Carl vote, and that was no guarantee, Al probably would NOT have rejoined The Beach Boys and eventually gone with Brian. Honestly, I think it would've been a Beach Boys touring group led by Mike, Carl, and Bruce, and as I said, Brian would've had his competing team with Al. As far as recordings, I also think things would've been the same. Just a 50th Anniversary album, though Carl would've obviously improved That's Why God Made The Radio.
I don't buy into the theory that Carl would've been influential in...changing things. People think that it would've been Carl influencing Brian, but I don't see it that way. The only people influencing Brian were his wifeandmanagers. The question would've been - could've Carl INFLUENCED MIKE? Only if and when Mike relented and ceded control would've the door been opened for Brian to work with The Beach Boys, and then things would've been different.
|
|