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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 28, 2020 18:48:27 GMT
I was listening to the radio this morning and on came "Sweet Dreams (Are Made Of This)" by The Eurythmics. That got me to thinking about Dave Stewart, and how he worked with Carnie and Wendy Wilson - and Brian Wilson - on the 1997 album, The Wilsons. That also got me to thinking how many people were "brought in" to work with Brian Wilson during his solo career. They, Brian's team, really tried to get something going, catch lightning in a bottle, create a spark - pick your cliche' - in getting Brian a hit, whether it be a hit album or a hit single. I guess they thought that these collaborators would bring to the game something that the solo Brian Wilson lacked. Maybe it was a song or part of a song. Maybe it was a different/additional voice. Maybe it was being more in touch with the then-present day music scene. Maybe it was simply being more familiar with modern studio technology that would result in a better sounding record.
Sadly, in the end, Brian never got that elusive hit album or hit single. Specifically, my question has to do with Brian's solo singles. Brian's highest charting single in the U.S. was "Your Imagination" which peaked at No. 103 on the Billboard Hot 100 Chart. It also hit No. 20 on the AC Chart. Oddly enough, two Christmas songs, "What I Really Want For Christmas" and "Deck The Halls" also charted on the U.S. AC Chart. It should be mentioned that a couple of singles from BWPS charted in the U.K.
My question? Which song, whether it was released as a single or not, do you think had the most potential to be that elusive hit single for the solo Brian Wilson? I actually have two that coincidentally come from the same album. First, I think that Brian's best solo song, or a song that is constantly in my personal Top Three, is "Lay Down Burden". I think it is an excellent song including the intro, melody, production, lyrics, and especially Brian's vocal. Oddly, to me anyway, it was never released as a single. The other song, "Dream Angel" is a song that has seldom been mentioned positively in published reviews and on various message boards. I find "Dream Angel" to very Beach Boyish in a good way. Again, I like the melody, production, and the vocals, both lead and background. I could hear it being played on the radio back in 1998.
Does anybody have a Brian Wilson solo song, that when you hear it, think that it shoulda/woulda/coulda been a hit single?
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 28, 2020 19:33:09 GMT
The two that occur to me first are both songs that I think sounded like hits of another era, which was their problem.
One you already mentioned: "Dream Angel." I think it's great. But like a lot of that album, I also don't think it sounds relevant in the late '90s at all; rather it sounds like something from maybe a decade earlier. Maybe from '90, even '91. But '98?
The other is from later still ... and it sounds like it would have fit earlier still. "Saturday Night," from NPP, sounds to me like a hit early-to-mid '80s tune. Not entirely, and especially not in the production: I don't think a banjo would have been used prominently in 1983 or anything in this kind of almost arena-rock refrain. But the song itself is very big, very arena-ready. Nobody would have wanted it from Brian Wilson in '83 ('93, '03, etc), but if you put the right frontman in there, someone a bit less, uh, Brian Wilsony, it could well have been a hit. Hell, as a Fun song in '13 it might've been a hit!
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Post by kds on Dec 29, 2020 1:35:48 GMT
Saturday Night would be my first choice. Nate Ruess's voice graced several hits. But, instead, the song was buried on the back end of NPP, and not released as a single.
I think South American could have hit in 1998, even if neither Jimmy or Brian had a hit to their name for a while at the time. But, the song was catchy enough, plus the nod to Cameron Diaz, who was red hot at the time.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 29, 2020 13:27:59 GMT
The two that occur to me first are both songs that I think sounded like hits of another era, which was their problem.
One you already mentioned: "Dream Angel." I think it's great. But like a lot of that album, I also don't think it sounds relevant in the late '90s at all; rather it sounds like something from maybe a decade earlier. Maybe from '90, even '91. But '98?
The other is from later still ... and it sounds like it would have fit earlier still. "Saturday Night," from NPP, sounds to me like a hit early-to-mid '80s tune. Not entirely, and especially not in the production: I don't think a banjo would have been used prominently in 1983 or anything in this kind of almost arena-rock refrain. But the song itself is very big, very arena-ready. Nobody would have wanted it from Brian Wilson in '83 ('93, '03, etc), but if you put the right frontman in there, someone a bit less, uh, Brian Wilsony, it could well have been a hit. Hell, as a Fun song in '13 it might've been a hit!
I have this theory related to the Beach Boys' sound and how it related/relates to the then-current music scene and climate. When I look back on some of the successful or semi-successful Beach Boys' singles, it appears that that the good-old Beach Boys' sound was able to transcend whichever music that was in vogue at the time. Right in the middle of the psychedelic era, the band had success with fairly-straightforward singles like "Darlin'", "Do It Again", and "I Can Hear Music". In 1976, punk rock was already popular, disco was also established, and hip groups like Fleetwood Mac were making their mark. Then, the Beach Boys record "Rock And Roll Music" and "It's OK" and they're back on the radio again (I realize the general listening public was very enamored with the band via Endless Summer/Spirit Of America. The late 70's/early 80's was also a mixed back of musical styles, and The Beach Boys continued to chart with "Almost Summer" (via Celebration), "Good Timin'", and even "Come Go With Me" - all classic-sounding Beach Boys' records. And, finally, right in the middle of all of the craziness which was the MTV era, "Getcha Back" hits No. 26.
I know it's sounds corny, and we've heard it in several interviews with the group through the years, but there's something special about that Beach Boys' blend that people are always drawn to. Mike knew/knows it. I think his whole musical philosophy is based on that premise. While Brian hasn't said it as often, and maybe was pressured to NOT say it, I think he believes it, too. And, what did Al's solo records sound like? I also think that's why many fans , fans like me, remain so optimistic through the decades. As long as there's potential for a new, classic-sounding Beach Boys' record, there's always hope. I was holding out hope for a successful single in 2012, which is why I would've gone with the most Beach Boyish song, "Spring Vacation". Even in 2021, with all of the diverse music and outlets available, who knows? I will never be surprised, well, maybe a little , if a Beach Boys' song (and, now, we're probably looking at a re-released one) makes some noise on the charts again.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 29, 2020 13:32:11 GMT
I think South American could have hit in 1998, even if neither Jimmy or Brian had a hit to their name for a while at the time. But, the song was catchy enough, plus the nod to Cameron Diaz, who was red hot at the time. I agree. "South American" did have it all to be considered a hit single. Isn't that something about the Imagination album. We've now mentioned three songs from the album, and a fourth, "Your Imagination" WAS released as a single. I think Imagination is stronger than most fans give it credit for, and I did rate it pretty high on our poll.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 29, 2020 14:06:31 GMT
It's one thing for us to talk about what sounds (to us) like it could have been a hit. It's another to look at were hits at the time, which in this case is a bit sobering. The Hot 100 singles list from 1998 is probably half modern RnB and a quarter rap. The remainder is split between female singer-songwriters (this was the era of Lilith Fair, remember) and then just spread out between various others.
There isn't a lot from legacy acts, to be sure. Elton John is in there, Aerosmith is in there. But it's a lot more Usher, Ma$e, Destiny's Child, Janet Jackson, Master P, Puff Daddy, and the latter two's artists.
The A/C charts surprisingly didn't have much in the way of legacy acts either: Celine Dion, Backstreet Boys, Savage Garden, Shania Twain dominate that list.
It seems to me that for whatever reason, thinking back on that time, really melodic and somewhat sophisticated pop music just wasn't really on people's minds for the most part. At the time, as I was just really getting into Wilson, I was horrified that he was being marketed as an adult contemporary kind of artist (if he was being marketed at all). Now I think a strong adult contemporary campaign would have been the best choice, ideally with the band in a reunion (and not Stars and Stripes). Kids and young adults weren't going to spend a ton of time debating whether to get the new Ma$e album or Imagination.
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Post by kds on Dec 29, 2020 15:46:58 GMT
The late 90s seems to be the time that, for the most part, the industry at large stopped giving a shit about new music from legacy artists.
Although, the late 90s also saw country pop crossing over, which is why I feel with the right push, South American could've backed into the charts. Definitely more pop than country, but thanks to the Buffett touch, it had that kind of vibe.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 31, 2020 17:15:47 GMT
Another example of one I think could've been a hit under different circumstances occurred to me when it popped up on shuffle: "Gettin' In Over My Head."
I'm not sure what it would have taken to get it there: the released version isn't great. I don't love the arrangement, and like most of its namesake album, both his decision to handle all vocals and the results of that decision were far from ideal. Could it have been a hit 10, 15 years earlier, when it was written and first recorded? Or at that same time if he had taken the time and care to make a good recording of it? That's where I come up short, I just don't know.
But I do think the underlying song is very, very good. It's hit-ballad quality material.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 31, 2020 17:43:54 GMT
Another example of one I think could've been a hit under different circumstances occurred to me when it popped up on shuffle: "Gettin' In Over My Head."
I'm not sure what it would have taken to get it there: the released version isn't great. I don't love the arrangement, and like most of its namesake album, both his decision to handle all vocals and the results of that decision were far from ideal. Could it have been a hit 10, 15 years earlier, when it was written and first recorded? Or at that same time if he had taken the time and care to make a good recording of it? That's where I come up short, I just don't know.
But I do think the underlying song is very, very good. It's hit-ballad quality material.
I can't say I'm a fan of "Gettin' In Over My Head". I don't find anything particularly special about the song; actually I think it drags. However, I was/am surprised that more of a big deal wasn't made out of the "guest artist songs" - "How Could We Still Be Dancing", "City Blues", and "A Friend Like You". It didn't get much bigger with names like Elton John, Eric Clapton, and Paul McCartney - and Brian had all three of them on the same album! "How Can We Still Be Dancing" is OK, I think "City Blues" is good to very good, and, yes, I even like a lot of "A Friend Like You". I'm not saying they could've been hit singles. They probably would NOT have been, though I wish "City Blues" would've gotten the chance. I felt that they (Brian's team) went to all of the trouble of getting these great musicians/singers to record a song on Brian's album, then didn't capitalize on it.
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Post by kds on Dec 31, 2020 17:47:03 GMT
Another example of one I think could've been a hit under different circumstances occurred to me when it popped up on shuffle: "Gettin' In Over My Head."
I'm not sure what it would have taken to get it there: the released version isn't great. I don't love the arrangement, and like most of its namesake album, both his decision to handle all vocals and the results of that decision were far from ideal. Could it have been a hit 10, 15 years earlier, when it was written and first recorded? Or at that same time if he had taken the time and care to make a good recording of it? That's where I come up short, I just don't know.
But I do think the underlying song is very, very good. It's hit-ballad quality material.
I can't say I'm a fan of "Gettin' In Over My Head". I don't find anything particular special about the song; actually I think it drags. However, I was/am surprised that more of a big deal wasn't made out of the "guest artist songs" - "How Could We Still Be Dancing", "City Blues", and "A Friend Like You". It didn't get much bigger with names like Elton John, Eric Clapton, and Paul McCartney - and Brian had all three of them on the same album. "How Can We Still Be Dancing" is OK, I think "City Blues" is good to very good, and, yes, I even like a lot of "A Friend Like You". I'm not saying they could've been hit singles. They probably would NOT have been, though I wish "City Blues" would've gotten the chance. I felt that they (Brian's team) went to all of the trouble of getting these great musicians/singers to record a song on Brian's album, then didn't capitalize on it. Well, at least they didn't make that mistake again................oh wait.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 31, 2020 19:01:26 GMT
I like two of the three guest-artist songs on that album, but I don't think any of them were done as well as they could've been. I quibble with the "no bigger stars" idea. It's what, 2004 when that album comes out? If we're looking for hits, Clapton, John, and McCartney were hardly tearing up the charts or dominating the airwaves.
"How Could We Still Be Dancin'" is a really good song, but that recording, oof: Brian is terrible. "hey, everybody" sounds atrocious. The background vocals: atrocious. I'd kill (or maim, anyway) for a good Beach Boys version, even from around that same time with them all somewhat diminished in their powers. Al singing Elton's part. Anyone except Brian singing Brian's part. (Or at least Brian trying harder.)
"City Blues" is very cool. Again, Brian struggles, especially on the first note of the refrain. But it's a very cool song. I don't think Clapton did anything Bennett or Walusko could have done, frankly. But nothing against what he did, either.
"A Friend Like You" is pretty bad in most respects, I think.
The title track, I agree that the recording drags. But as I said, I'm not talking about it as is, but as imagined. It could have been recorded a couple bpm faster. That solves that problem easily enough.
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Post by kds on Dec 31, 2020 19:59:55 GMT
If anybody told me to explain disappointment in three minutes and 37 seconds, I would play A Friend Like You.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 3, 2021 14:28:04 GMT
Another example of one I think could've been a hit under different circumstances occurred to me when it popped up on shuffle: "Gettin' In Over My Head."
Kapitan's post led me to pull out the Gettin' In Over My Head album to revisit the title song, and I got a similar reaction or feeling to the one I experienced a few months ago when we discussed the album on the Album Of The Week thread. Gettin' In Over My Head, the album, is not THAT bad.
Well, it's not as bad as BB/BW fans have expressed over the years. I don't recall the record reviewers/critics as being as...critical. OK, let me be even more specific. The songwriting on Gettin' In Over My Head is actually pretty good. As I listen to the album, song after song, I realize that I kind of like the material. I was always a fan of the Sweet Insanity songs, and with those songs and the additions, I think Gettin' In Over My Head was/is a very good representation of Brian's solo career songwriting. And, there's not a lot of collaborators!
A few of the songs are only OK, songs that sound to me like Brian was just painting by numbers, Songwriting 101 if you will. Those would be "Desert Drive", "Rainbow Eyes", "How Could We Still Be Dancing", and the title track. Nothing special there but they're not terrible. Then there's some what I consider to be really strong BW songs - "City Blues", Make A Wish", "Soul Searchin'", "Saturday Morning In The City", "Fairy Tale", and "Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel". "A Friend Like You", "You've Touched Me", and "The Waltz" are somewhere in between. They really would've benefited from better lyrics.
Gettin' In Over My Head is like every other BW solo album when it comes to wishing it would've been recorded with The Beach Boys, but even moreso. I would've loved to have heard what Mike, Carl, and Al could've done with these songs. These are Beach Boys' songs, and yes, they are "very Brian". Gettin' In Over My Head is the real follow up to The Beach Boys Love. It's raw, honest, and quirky. To me anyway, like Love You, it sounds like a snapshot of Brian Wilson at that particular time in his life and career.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Gettin' In Over My Head contains the strongest songwriting - just songwriting - of any BW solo album from beginning to end. It's not easy for me to say that because I prefer the album No Pier Pressure overall, and I realize BW1988, Imagination, and That Lucky Old Sun have some real highlights, too. But, hey, Gettin' In Over My Head has no covers, Beach Boys-wise or other. I never had a huge problem with resurrecting Sweet Insanity. In the end, I just wish the lyrics, production, and especially vocals would've done the songs a little more justice.
Question - Which Brian Wilson solo album do YOU think contains the strongest songwriting? Just songwriting.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 3, 2021 15:04:33 GMT
First, I have to say how funny it is to read your opinions of the stronger versus weaker song and think about subjectivity in all this: I don't think there are many more paint-by-numbers BW songs than "Soul Searchin," for example. It's a fine song, but would be hard to make it more to type. I don't see how it's different than "Desert Drive" in that respect (though a different style obviously).
And I will say that while they aren't covers, "Desert Drive," "Soul Searchin'," "Saturday Morning In the City," "Rainbow Eyes," "The Waltz," "Fairy Tale," "Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel," "Gettin In Over My Head," "City Blues," and "Make a Wish," and "How Could We Still Be Dancing" are all old songs. The only truly new ones, if I'm not mistaken, were "A Friend Like You" (which is god-awful) and "You've Touched Me" (which is meh). This doesn't really bother me, by the way. Just pointing it out. (Kind of like BWPS, he says to infuriate SJS.)
But the question: strongest songwriting on a BW solo album? Discounting BWPS, which is far and away the best, I'd probably agree that it is this one. However, I'd include the footnote that the new songs for it were arguably the worst songs on the album. So, considering he was able to cherry-pick the best songs from the past couple decades, one would hope the songs would be strong.
Sadly it is also his worst performance as a singer on a solo studio album--by far. It is really bad in spots. And while Love You was also bad in spots, that was at least creative musically. This is far more a by-numbers kind of album musically. It sounds like something he just had to get done and didn't care much about one way or the other.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 3, 2021 15:08:29 GMT
Question - Which Brian Wilson solo album do YOU think contains the strongest songwriting? Just songwriting. Not including BWPS? I might give That Lucky Old Sun the nod, with Brian Wilson following very closely behind. The rest aren't on that level, IMO.
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