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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 26, 2021 13:45:48 GMT
Three--and this might be a stretch, but it's what I always think of--it's almost ironic. In the song lyric, it's tied to a tidal wave. "The waves are good, all right..." But it calls to my mind the phrase "time's up," too. It's like a term that for me calls to mind the end of the surfing era and image. Anyone who had seen them in the previous few years would of course already know this and thus be in on the joke.
I've thought of that, too. But then I always think - how many others "get" the irony. In the end, it didn't/doesn't matter, but I do think they WERE going for the "art" angle, too, which might've taken precedence over pre-selling x number of albums. I think the team (except Brian and Dennis) was trying to make Surf's Up into something more than just the next Beach Boys' album. I mean, look at the album cover for one.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 26, 2021 13:53:57 GMT
Right, I agree that many probably didn't "get it," but I also just don't think that mattered (if it was even part of the intent). I think it works regardless for reasons 1-2.
Though I can easily imagine a bunch of stoner teenagers thinking it's funny that this band that used to be so corny referenced surfing on their new album.
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sockit
The Surfer Moon
Posts: 234
Likes: 181
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Post by sockit on Sept 26, 2021 14:38:37 GMT
My nickel's worth on Surfs Up: My overall feeling was that they gambled on lots of irony and didn't exactly win. You have this BBs album titled Surfs Up (something that you would think conjures up the good ol' days), with kind of a bummer of a cover, and then you go to play the first track, and it warns you..."Don't Go Near the Water". What is this, some kind of joke? "Long Promised Road" rocks, but it's not exactly a "happy" song. There's not one song on the album that has anything to do with the ocean until "Til I Die" and as beautiful as it is, it's kind of sad. I imagine a lot of folks (particularly long time fans of the Boys) were quite perplexed by the album. "If everybody had an ocean..." it would be dried up. Happy now?
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Post by B.E. on Sept 26, 2021 17:27:00 GMT
In 1971, while talking about the upcoming Surf's Up album, Van Dyke Parks said something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "If they call the album Surf's Up, it'll pre-sell 150,000 copies." Or something like that. Really, Van Dyke?
This is my question, or questions. It appears that Van Dyke was more confident of "Surf's Up"'s notoriety than the average fan. And let's look at the average fan. First, the average music fan. Wouldn't most average music fans see the song title, "Surf's Up", and immediately conjure up thoughts of "Surfin' Safari" and "Surfin' U.S.A."? You know, The Beach Boys + their past hit surfing records = "Surf's Up". Or, if that connection wasn't made, and the average music wasn't making that connection, then what were they thinking?
OK, now look at the Beach Boys' fans. Keeping in mind this is pre-internet, pre-Beach Boys' biographies, and keeping in mind that "Surf's Up" was NEVER HEARD, how were music fans to know or anticipate that "Surf's Up" was this legendary SMiLE track? A snippet of the song was broadcast four years earlier on a Leonard Bernstein-hosted TV show, not about The Beach Boys, but popular music in general. How many people watched that show? What were the ratings? How many people hung with the show and saw Brian's stripped performance of "Surf's Up"? We know it wasn't caught later on YouTube. While Leonard might've been impressed, or so he said, how do we know Brian blew anybody away with his performance? Directly, how many music fans thought, "Ooh, that legendary SMiLE song, "Surf's Up" is being released on the new Beach Boys' (1971) album. I gotta get it!"
What's my point? Well, was "Surf's Up" really the best album title for their 1971 album? Did the album title pre-sell any units? And, finally, was Surf's Up a good title for the actual music on the album? It seems to me that other titles might've been more appropriate for the "feel" of the album. You know, Landlocked wouldn't have been such a bad album title. How about Long Promised Road? Lookin' At Tomorrow? Or, um, (cough)...Feel Flows?
1) Do we know that Surf's Up didn't sell in the neighborhood of 150,000 copies? (In total, if not upfront.) That said, let's not forget that Van Dyke was invested. It kind of reminds me of Hal Blaine talking up the early version of "Everything I Need" (to astronomical proportions) and utterly trashing the released version. Not exactly an unbiased observer. That said, I don't recall the context of Van Dyke's remarks, so I'm not sure how he meant it. 2) I agree that the average music fan/the general public would associate the title with their golden era. How couldn't they make that connection? 3) I think you are underplaying the Bernstein CBS documentary and all the hype surrounding Smile, and in particular "Surf's Up". At least, circa 1967. I could get on board that by 1971 much of the interest was lost, and that younger fans may have been unaware, but the other artist who performed, Janis Ian, her single "Society's Child" had been released in September of 1966 and only charted shortly after the documentary aired, eventually peaking in July of 1967 at #14! She only had one other hit song in her career - nearly 10 years later. 4) I think "Surf's Up" was probably the best title because it could be taken in different ways and it's the best song on the album. It also had the greatest potential marketing/promotion-wise, for obvious reasons. That said, I think "Long Promised Road" would have also been a great choice, but the problem there is you are naming the album after, at best, the 3rd best song, and a song that even the group didn't see fit to use as an opener or closer of either side of the LP. In that sense, it's just not your traditional choice (not they must adhere to tradition, or anything). Personally, while I like the concept of "Landlocked" I just don't think it's an appealing title. I understand that fans have grown attached to it due to its use as a bootleg title, but I was never into that scene myself. I don't think "Lookin' At Tomorrow" is a very good title. It's kinda bland. "Feel Flows" isn't bad, but I don't love it.
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Post by B.E. on Sept 26, 2021 17:42:11 GMT
Three--and this might be a stretch, but it's what I always think of--it's almost ironic. In the song lyric, it's tied to a tidal wave. "The waves are good, all right..." But it calls to my mind the phrase "time's up," too. It's like a term that for me calls to mind the end of the surfing era and image. Anyone who had seen them in the previous few years would of course already know this and thus be in on the joke.
I've thought of that, too. But then I always think - how many others "get" the irony. In the end, it didn't/doesn't matter, but I do think they WERE going for the "art" angle, too, which might've taken precedence over pre-selling x number of albums. I think the team (except Brian and Dennis) was trying to make Surf's Up into something more than just the next Beach Boys' album. I mean, look at the album cover for one.
Admittedly, I'm not entirely following the discussion here, but I wanted to clarify that I am taking into account the album cover when considering the album title. I think "Surf's Up" works because it's paired with that album cover. If they used a stock image of a surfer hanging ten or something, then that would have been terrible. By the way, I'm not a fan of the back cover as it looks mighty amateurish and doesn't really match the front. But, that's for another thread! Where did we leave off with that one, anyway?
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 26, 2021 21:26:31 GMT
In 1971, while talking about the upcoming Surf's Up album, Van Dyke Parks said something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "If they call the album Surf's Up, it'll pre-sell 150,000 copies." Or something like that. Really, Van Dyke?
This is my question, or questions. It appears that Van Dyke was more confident of "Surf's Up"'s notoriety than the average fan. And let's look at the average fan. First, the average music fan. Wouldn't most average music fans see the song title, "Surf's Up", and immediately conjure up thoughts of "Surfin' Safari" and "Surfin' U.S.A."? You know, The Beach Boys + their past hit surfing records = "Surf's Up". Or, if that connection wasn't made, and the average music wasn't making that connection, then what were they thinking?
OK, now look at the Beach Boys' fans. Keeping in mind this is pre-internet, pre-Beach Boys' biographies, and keeping in mind that "Surf's Up" was NEVER HEARD, how were music fans to know or anticipate that "Surf's Up" was this legendary SMiLE track? A snippet of the song was broadcast four years earlier on a Leonard Bernstein-hosted TV show, not about The Beach Boys, but popular music in general. How many people watched that show? What were the ratings? How many people hung with the show and saw Brian's stripped performance of "Surf's Up"? We know it wasn't caught later on YouTube. While Leonard might've been impressed, or so he said, how do we know Brian blew anybody away with his performance? Directly, how many music fans thought, "Ooh, that legendary SMiLE song, "Surf's Up" is being released on the new Beach Boys' (1971) album. I gotta get it!"
What's my point? Well, was "Surf's Up" really the best album title for their 1971 album? Did the album title pre-sell any units? And, finally, was Surf's Up a good title for the actual music on the album? It seems to me that other titles might've been more appropriate for the "feel" of the album. You know, Landlocked wouldn't have been such a bad album title. How about Long Promised Road? Lookin' At Tomorrow? Or, um, (cough)...Feel Flows?
3) I think you are underplaying the Bernstein CBS documentary and all the hype surrounding Smile, and in particular "Surf's Up". At least, circa 1967. I could get on board that by 1971 much of the interest was lost, and that younger fans may have been unaware, but the other artist who performed, Janis Ian, her single "Society's Child" had been released in September of 1966 and only charted shortly after the documentary aired, eventually peaking in July of 1967 at #14! She only had one other hit song in her career - nearly 10 years later. I thought that ^ was my best point!
I'll repeat (which I usually do) that I wonder how many people actually saw the broadcast. Maybe the competition on the other, um, two networks was strong that night. What time did the Bernstein show air? Were many music fans (younger ones) in bed by then? I'm fairly certain the show wasn't repeated though I have no proof. And, I'm fairly certain it wasn't rebroadcasted in the ensuing four years. I know it didn't "come out on DVD". So, if you didn't catch it that one particular night, you were out of luck. As an aside, and I know this is blasphemy, but maybe some fans weren't exactly enthralled by a solo Brian Wilson sitting at the piano singing...weird lyrics.
I'll also say again that NOBODY heard "Surf's Up", the record, in 1971. You could only read about it for, say, a few weeks in 1967, in what, a few obscure magazine articles. Maybe Van Dyke Parks knew something - about the legend of "Surf's Up" and its power - that others didn't. It's usually that way with him anyway, isn't it?
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 26, 2021 21:37:07 GMT
I think what's being discussed here is (as a thread either here or elsewhere got into) hipsterism. Isn't it?
If VDP is talking about this song that's such a legend, that represents this album that everyone who's anyone knows about, that people in the know have been pining for for years ... isn't he really saying that the intelligensia, the in-crowd, the hipsters knew? Yes, he, Paul Williams, David Anderle, Loren Daro/Schwartz, Danny Hutton, and some handful of LA scenesters really did know all about it, really were waiting for it.
But Randy Podolowski and Jerry Baumberg and Bob Stone in Cleveland, Newark, and Albuquerque presumably were not in on the master plan.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 26, 2021 21:45:24 GMT
I think what's being discussed here is (as a thread either here or elsewhere got into) hipsterism. Isn't it?
If VDP is talking about this song that's such a legend, that represents this album that everyone who's anyone knows about, that people in the know have been pining for for years ... isn't he really saying that the intelligensia, the in-crowd, the hipsters knew? Yes, he, Paul Williams, David Anderle, Loren Daro/Schwartz, Danny Hutton, and some handful of LA scenesters really did know all about it, really were waiting for it.
But Randy Podolowski and Jerry Baumberg and Bob Stone in Cleveland, Newark, and Albuquerque presumably were not in on the master plan.
Yes, but he attached the 150,000 copies (or something like that) at the end. The intelligensia is just a few, unless he thought "they" might have a lot of influence with their writing and schmoozing that would result in increased sales. However, like B.E. said, how do we know it didn't result in 150,000 in sales? (as I look for a VDP emoticon unsuccessfully).
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 26, 2021 21:50:13 GMT
Never underestimate a hipster's sense of his own popularity! "We're super cool and nobody knows about it ... everybody's on board!"
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Post by B.E. on Sept 26, 2021 22:25:38 GMT
3) I think you are underplaying the Bernstein CBS documentary and all the hype surrounding Smile, and in particular "Surf's Up". At least, circa 1967. I could get on board that by 1971 much of the interest was lost, and that younger fans may have been unaware, but the other artist who performed, Janis Ian, her single "Society's Child" had been released in September of 1966 and only charted shortly after the documentary aired, eventually peaking in July of 1967 at #14! She only had one other hit song in her career - nearly 10 years later. I thought that ^ was my best point!
I'll repeat (which I usually do) that I wonder how many people actually saw the broadcast. Maybe the competition on the other, um, two networks was strong that night. What time did the Bernstein show air? Were many music fans (younger ones) in bed by then? I'm fairly certain the show wasn't repeated though I have no proof. And, I'm fairly certain it wasn't rebroadcasted in the ensuing four years. I know it didn't "come out on DVD". So, if you didn't catch it that one particular night, you were out of luck. As an aside, and I know this is blasphemy, but maybe some fans weren't exactly enthralled by a solo Brian Wilson sitting at the piano singing...weird lyrics.
I'll also say again that NOBODY heard "Surf's Up", the record, in 1971. You could only read about it for, say, a few weeks in 1967, in what, a few obscure magazine articles. Maybe Van Dyke Parks knew something - about the legend of "Surf's Up" and its power - that others didn't. It's usually that way with him anyway, isn't it? And I thought Janis Ian and her single, "Society's Child", was my best point. Obviously, it's impossible to really know the answers to these sorts of things...the precise cause and effect of it all. But, I do think the timeline regarding that single points to both a) many viewers of the broadcast and b) the influence/impact of it. It would be great to have more information regarding the TV ratings, (potential) rebroadcasts, what was written and talked about afterwards, all that, but none of us seem to know. It also wouldn't really matter if potential buyers of Surf's Up had seen the broadcast, or read or heard about Smile and "Surf's Up" previously, all that would really need to happen is their being informed of it in 1971 through promotional and marketing efforts. And, again, I think you're underplaying the Smile promotion. I don't think with Derek Taylor on board, and Capitol, all the hype was limited to a few mentions in a few obscure magazines (though, I could very well be proven wrong. I was never that obsessed with the Smile project as to track all that stuff down like other fans have). I did read earlier today that some reviewers of Smiley Smile were wondering where the hell "Surf's Up" was. I don't know, I just think that documentary is the sort of think the "serious" music fans of rock and pop would have tuned in for. And, like you said, there were only two other networks going. All that said, I do appreciate the skepticism. It can be all too easy, with hindsight, to point to certain events and place undue significance on them. And, I don't doubt for a second that some of the more "Surfin' Safari"/"409" type fans may not have been interested in a song like "Surf's Up", particularly a solo version, but I think most listeners go along with the times, and if they were down with Pet Sounds and GV then I think they would have at least been intrigued by "Surf's Up" (Brian still had that voice).
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Post by B.E. on Sept 26, 2021 22:40:33 GMT
Going with "Surf's Up" was a decision NOT to go with: "hey, remember how much you loved Sunflower? Well, here's each of our newest tunes!". No, they were asking everyone to recall Brian's former glory, and enticing the world with a lost classic (whether they were waiting for it or not).
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 29, 2021 13:20:46 GMT
This is one I've occasionally wondered about but never gotten around to asking:
Why the hell were the Beach Boys popular in the Netherlands even as their popularity tanked elsewhere?
Checking the wikipedia discography, which shows performance of singles and albums by country, there was nothing until "Barbara Ann," meaning I assume they weren't releasing singles there. But they had 10 Top 20 singles from then through the end of the '60s. "Cottonfields" did pretty well there, at #14. "Tears in the Morning" hit #4 there while it failed to chart anywhere else. The two Carl and the Passions singles both made the Top 30 there while failing to chart most everywhere else.
And then of course the band went there to record Holland; "Sail On Sailor" reached #28.
Then nothing for the rest of the '70s.
Anyone have any insight? Was there some popular DJ who championed their cause? Did they make a point of playing there often on their international tours? Does Bruce speak Dutch?
Bumping my own question just this once because I really am curious and we got off onto other questions after I posted it. Maybe nobody knows (or cares), but I wanted to give it one more shot. Then I'll drop it.
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Post by jk on Sept 29, 2021 19:31:28 GMT
Having lived in NL since the mid ‘70s, I feel I should know the answer to this—but I don’t. That said, there’s a strange logic to it, I feel, as if the Dutch mentality is on the right wavelength. Impossible to explain, really—NL and the Boys just seem to click. Maybe it’s something in the eggnog.
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
Posts: 519
Likes: 531
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Post by Emdeeh on Oct 7, 2021 19:18:56 GMT
Well -- not really a question, just passing something along from the BBFC mailbox, in case anyone's interested: There's an online auction of BB albums and vintage fanzines being held Friday, October 8, starting 10 a.m. GMT from Wessex Auctions, Chippenham, UK. www.wessexauctionrooms.co.uk/departments/vinyl-auctionGo to page 10 of the online catalog to see the lots available.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 29, 2021 14:16:17 GMT
I think the most typical fan narrative about the Beach Boys in the 1970s is that it began with commercially disappointing artistic success but frayed from the "Brian's Back" marketing efforts onward toward what might be the band's low point later in the decade and into the next.
But is the latter half of the '70s worthy of more credit? From 1970-74, the Beach Boys had no Top 50 hits in the US and one ("Cottonfields," in 1970) UK Top 50 hit.
In the latter half of the '70s, they had five of their 10 singles chart in the Billboard Hot 100's top 50 and another one not far outside it ("Sail On Sailor" reissue at 49, "Rock and Roll Music" at 5, "It's OK" at 29, "Peggy Sue" at 59, "Here Comes the Night" at 44, and "Good Timin" at 40), and four in the UK doing the same ("RnR Music" 36, "HCTN" at 37, "Lady Lynda" at 6, and surprisingly, the B-side "Sumahuma" at 45).
They also had returned to being a major concert draw by the early-mid '70s to being a stadium band by the latter half of the decade.
Do the latter '70s deserve more credit? Whatever kinds of qualitative assessments a person might choose to make, at least in quantitative terms it seems they do.
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