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Post by lonelysummer on Dec 30, 2023 21:56:30 GMT
I understand Pacific Ocean Blue isn't everybody's cup of tea. It kind of falls into that category with Smiley Smile, The Beach Boys Love You, and maybe 15 Big Ones. But I'll say this. I don't think I ever read a review of Pacific Ocean Blue that wasn't positive, and most of the time overwhelming positive. The album consistently appears in polls/articles for overlooked albums or hidden gems or best solo albums. Other than the Beach Boys' big bombers (and we know which ones they are), I don't see a lot of their albums being recognized. I'm not questioning or disagreeing with anybody's opinions BTW. Just making conversation. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike POB. I think it's a good album. But, I just don't think it's a great album. Yes, my thoughts exactly. Actually, it's a masterpiece compared to Love You.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 31, 2023 13:11:31 GMT
I feel the same about POB. I think its a good album, but I'm not in the "overlooked masterpiece / best BB solo album" camp. I understand Pacific Ocean Blue isn't everybody's cup of tea. It kind of falls into that category with Smiley Smile, The Beach Boys Love You, and maybe 15 Big Ones. But I'll say this. I don't think I ever read a review of Pacific Ocean Blue that wasn't positive, and most of the time overwhelming positive. The album consistently appears in polls/articles for overlooked albums or hidden gems or best solo albums. Other than the Beach Boys' big bombers (and we know which ones they are), I don't see a lot of their albums being recognized. I'm not questioning or disagreeing with anybody's opinions BTW. Just making conversation. I think in terms of reaction by fans, you are probably right. But one way they are very different is how POB is a very finely crafted, very much finished. Any of its rawness is in the songs themselves, or the vocals. In the case of the other three, whatever the artists or those albums' champions might argue, I think there is a certain sloppiness or even just half-assedness in spots. Not that I mean those aren't good albums. I absolutely love Love You and do like the other two. But those three albums in large part feel partly unfinished in some way or another. Based on people's comments about Brian in the mid-late 70s, I think it is hard to argue that's the case. He might have worked hard in spurts and to get parts of arrangements or ideas down, but then it's like "OK, and then we'll just sing it--yeah that's good. Let's go home." Point being that vibe is appealing in some ways to some people for sure, but that's also a big part of why they are polarizing. (That and the gruff voices on the latter two ... and weird subject matter.) POB has the gruff voice, but it is certainly not half-assed in any way. It was meticulously completed. I think that is a big reason for its consistently good reviews: your style of music or not, you can't really argue it wasn't well done.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 31, 2023 14:00:07 GMT
I understand Pacific Ocean Blue isn't everybody's cup of tea. It kind of falls into that category with Smiley Smile, The Beach Boys Love You, and maybe 15 Big Ones. But I'll say this. I don't think I ever read a review of Pacific Ocean Blue that wasn't positive, and most of the time overwhelming positive. The album consistently appears in polls/articles for overlooked albums or hidden gems or best solo albums. Other than the Beach Boys' big bombers (and we know which ones they are), I don't see a lot of their albums being recognized. I'm not questioning or disagreeing with anybody's opinions BTW. Just making conversation. I think in terms of reaction by fans, you are probably right. But one way they are very different is how POB is a very finely crafted, very much finished. Any of its rawness is in the songs themselves, or the vocals. In the case of the other three, whatever the artists or those albums' champions might argue, I think there is a certain sloppiness or even just half-assedness in spots. Not that I mean those aren't good albums. I absolutely love Love You and do like the other two. But those three albums in large part feel partly unfinished in some way or another. Based on people's comments about Brian in the mid-late 70s, I think it is hard to argue that's the case. He might have worked hard in spurts and to get parts of arrangements or ideas down, but then it's like "OK, and then we'll just sing it--yeah that's good. Let's go home." Point being that vibe is appealing in some ways to some people for sure, but that's also a big part of why they are polarizing. (That and the gruff voices on the latter two ... and weird subject matter.) POB has the gruff voice, but it is certainly not half-assed in any way. It was meticulously completed. I think that is a big reason for its consistently good reviews: your style of music or not, you can't really argue it wasn't well done. Good points. I do agree with some of them but I disagree a little with what might be (I think) your main about point the "unfinished" nature of those albums. If you look at the number of sessions or weeks/months it took to record Smiley Smile and 15 Big Ones, and to a lesser extent Love You, those albums wouldn't be considered unfinished - and also if you compare them to the quickies and sometimes brilliant albums Brian produced in 1963-1965 (relatively speaking). Now, I realize that simply time spent and/or number of sessions doesn't necessarily constitute "finished"...see SMiLE. But I always considered Smiley Smile, 15 Big Ones, and Love You as finished, albeit according to Brian Wilson whose judgement was questionable around the times of those albums. Weird, sloppy, gruff? Hell yeah. Unfinished? Meh. I don't know what else I would add to those albums. Like 'em or not, those were Brian's artistic visions at the time and I think he accomplished reaching them.
I think those albums were less successful because of what they were not when they were recorded/released. Smiley Smile was not Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!), Pet Sounds, or "Good Vibrations". The fans already lost the good old Beach Boys' surf & turf classics, they lost "Barbara Ann", now you're gonna make them sit through Smiley Smile? I won't even address the loss of SMiLE because it wasn't really known at that time. 15 Big Ones was sloppy, ragged, and underwhelming, but it wasn't Endless Summer and that was the biggest disappointment to the fans. They would've gladly accepted 15 "It's OK"s and "Rock And Roll Music"s. The same thing with Love You. Yes, Brian tried harder (that's what he said anyway) to make a "Beach Boys" album, it just didn't sound like one. And that's basically my point, or disagreement. Brian could've spent a year "finishing" Smiley Smiley, 15 Big Ones, and Love You - and they probably would've ended up sounding pretty much the same. In 1976-77, Brian and Dennis's voices were shot, and Mike and Carl weren't exactly at the top of their games either. We got what we got. Look at how improved the vocals were on M.I.U. Album, and I wouldn't say that more time and care was spent on that album than the previous two.
For 15 Big Ones and Love You, you could've had Phil Spector or George Martin produce those albums and the guys - especially Brian and Dennis - would've probably ended up sounding the same. And the fans, both Beach Boys' fans and general music fans, weren't going to like it. I won't get into the track selection on 15 Big Ones; that's another issue. But fans were able to accept Dennis's vocals on Pacific Ocean Blue because of the type of songs, not that they were more finished or realized. It was the type of music. They weren't pop songs. They weren't fun. They weren't even rock and roll. It was brilliant songwriting and it was the emotion. Was time and care spent on those songs? It's obvious. The production and the arrangements are perfect.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 31, 2023 15:55:47 GMT
I'm not sure I agree about the latter two. Yes, they spent a long time on sessions, but that doesn't at all mean they were getting those songs just how they wanted them to be. Keep in mind how many unreleased (or later-released) songs come from that period. To me, it supports my point: "let's try this ... nah, never mind," or "let's try this ... good enough, it's a take."
I absolutely think more care was taken on production of MIU than its predecessors. It's just that it was basically produced by Ron Altbach and Al Jardine as opposed to Brian Wilson! A half-assed Brian Wilson still has really cool ideas for arrangements and sounds, while Altbach and Jardine just aren't as gifted in that respect.
It isn't just speed that makes it sloppy or not. Those mid-60s albums went fast, but were under the focused, creative, ambitious Brian Wilson's care. He was working to complete those productions in every sense, not just writing the songs but getting the right arrangements, the right sounds, the right performances, and the right mixes. I just don't believe that was the case on the two mid-late 70s albums mentioned.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 31, 2023 16:52:05 GMT
I know Brian has been fairly positive about Love You through the years. I think I recall him saying...some...good things about 15 Big Ones, too. Assuming those two albums were unfinished, I'm curious - if hypothetically Brian was given a chance to change something about those two albums - what he would change? I recall Brian saying he had laryngitis during the recording of one of them (was it 15 Big Ones?), but other than a bad vocal or a bum note, I wonder what he would do to finish them? Again, in 1976 that's all you were gonna get from Brian and Dennis regarding a decent vocal.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 31, 2023 17:05:45 GMT
I think Brian clearly associates music with how he felt when he was making it: when he felt "high" about it, he loves it; when not, not. That's how it seems to me. I think he likes Love You because he felt good about making those songs, about fiddling with those arrangements. I don't think that his appreciation for it, or even his approach to it, is the same as an external observer making note of what he did. There are almost nothing but sketchy vocals on LY, vocals that could have been wildly improved by sticking to it. Both remind me of GIOMH in some ways, where (as I recall certain of the "insiders" at the time saying) Brian's band were even somewhat shocked when he said they were finished with various songs or the album. Those albums just aren't meticulous at all, even though the music could (and arguably should) be, based on what's going on. Performances and mixes consistently don't live up to arrangements. It just sounds like they were (he was) getting it done. That doesn't mean he didn't love LY especially: I'm sure he LOVED just doing what he felt and stopping when he felt. It just is what it is.
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Post by B.E. on Dec 31, 2023 17:06:26 GMT
I know Brian has been fairly positive about Love You through the years. I think I recall him saying...some...good things about 15 Big Ones, too. Assuming those two albums were unfinished, I'm curious - if hypothetically Brian was given a chance to change something about those two albums - what he would change? I recall Brian saying he had laryngitis during the recording of one of them (was it 15 Big Ones?), but other than a bad vocal or a bum note, I wonder what he would do to finish them? I imagine that would depend on his mood at the time of reconsideration. Mostly, he'd probably just prefer to leave them as is. As, like you said, he doesn't seem to regret how he approached the albums or the result of them. I'm reminded of George Harrison wanting to remix All Things Must Pass later in life to reduce the reverb and - you could say - to de-Spectorize it a bit. But that's just changing preferences, you know? It's also easy to say that after it's been one way for decades and it's not like a remix is going to remove the original from existence. I'll say, though, I can imagine a Brian wishing for smoother vocals, but then again he really doesn't seem the type to second guess himself, does he?
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Post by B.E. on Dec 31, 2023 17:16:15 GMT
I think Brian clearly associates music with how he felt when he was making it: when he felt "high" about it, he loves it; when not, not. That's how it seems to me. I think he likes Love You because he felt good about making those songs, about fiddling with those arrangements. I don't think that his appreciation for it, or even his approach to it, is the same as an external observer making note of what he did. There are almost nothing but sketchy vocals on LY, vocals that could have been wildly improved by sticking to it. Both remind me of GIOMH in some ways, where (as I recall certain of the "insiders" at the time saying) Brian's band were even somewhat shocked when he said they were finished with various songs or the album. Those albums just aren't meticulous at all, even though the music could (and arguably should) be based on what's going on. Performances and mixes consistently don't live up to arrangements. It just sounds like they were (he was) getting it done. That doesn't mean he didn't love LY especially: I'm sure he LOVED just doing what he felt and stopping when he felt. It just is what it is. And I think how "high" or not he feels about it often directly relates to how much he contributed and how "in control" he was over the project. Especially when it comes to Beach Boys albums. Not that he hasn't had positive things to say about albums that he wasn't as heavily involved in (e.g. Holland). But Brian probably digs 15 Big Ones and Love You as much as anyone, because it's all him. It doesn't matter that he wasn't at his best according to critics or fans. To a certain extent, as an artist, I don't think that's a judgement he can make. I'd think many artists are like that. Sort of thinking that they're newest work is just as "good" as anything they've ever done. Edit: All that said, I do think the reception of his work can sour his appreciation for it. Edit #2: I think what I bolded above is 100% right.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 31, 2023 17:26:56 GMT
There was a time when I was obsessed with Brian's (and to a lesser extent, Dennis's) ruined voice. I was a newbie...and confused. It made me so sad. I couldn't accept it. At that time (1976) I wasn't sure what exactly caused this, and I would look for little (any!) signs of improvement, whether it be a TV interview, or a live performance, or just his physical appearance/improvement. Of course by 1977 and the M.I.U. sessions, Brian's voice had improved considerably, but then it occasionally seemed to take a step backward again.
Anyway, eventually I realized the following or came to the following conclusion. I know you can't go back and change things - specifically 15 Big Ones and Love You - but if you just eliminated the calendar year of 1976, or all of the sessions/recordings of that year, you wouldn't have any hoarse, ragged, or embarrassing vocals from Brian Wilson on record. All of those bad vocals occurred in the span of about ten months. Did his voice drastically change? Yes, it would never be the same. Not even close. But without 1976, you would never be exposed to those embarrassing, audience-losing, head-scratching vocals. You would've gone from "On my way to sunny Californ-i-a" on Holland to "Wontcha Come Out Tonight", "She's Got Rhythm", and "Matchpoint Of Our Love" on M.I.U. Album. Different? Yes. Jarring? Not really. Just wanted to note that. I don't know what that means but I feel better now.
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Post by B.E. on Dec 31, 2023 17:51:54 GMT
Point taken, SJS, but... if you just eliminated the calendar year of 1976, or all of the sessions/recordings of that year
I don't want to contemplate that!
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 31, 2023 22:18:21 GMT
In the end, after very seriously both the fruitful 1970 and the arguably fruitless 1971, I'm going with 1977 for Dennis Wilson. While I don't see POB as a great album, it is a really good album--and maybe more importantly, Dennis Wilson actually completed and released it. (It truly is a shame he didn't get to do his tour for it.) He also contributed vocally to several of the Love You songs I really do love (namely "Mona" and "I'll Bet He's Nice"). So 1977 it is.
Also, I'm thinking we may move on tomorrow, unless the conversation (and votes) on Dennis stay strong.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 1, 2024 21:41:50 GMT
Winning five votes to three, the board believes 1970 was Dennis Wilson's best year.
1977 had the other three votes. If you haven't voted or still had more to say, feel free to chime in and we'll update the totals. Otherwise, it's time to turn our attention to the first outsider to join the group (in 1965) in a story told time and time again, the man who loves Disney girls and who wrote the songs--or at least that one that, have you heard?, won a Grammy. Which was the best year for...
Bruce Johnston
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Post by jk on Jan 1, 2024 22:51:54 GMT
If you haven't voted or still had more to say, feel free to chime in and we'll update the totals. Otherwise, it's time to turn our attention to the first outsider to join the group (in 1965) in a story told time and time again, the man who loves Disney girls and who wrote the songs--or at least that one that, have you heard?, won a Grammy. Which was the best year for... Bruce JohnstonWell, I seem to be first in this time round. Rather predictably, perhaps, I'll vote for 1971, the year of "Disney Girls (1957)", the big Bruce moment on Surf's Up...
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Post by kds on Jan 2, 2024 4:31:36 GMT
I was tempted to vote for 1970 for Bruce, since he's pretty prolific on Sunflower (three leads, songwriting credits on two). But, I'm choosing quality over quantity, and voting for 1971, for Bruce's greatest BB momemt - Disney Girls.
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Post by lonelysummer on Jan 2, 2024 5:48:14 GMT
Bruce's best years were probably before he joined the Beach Boys.
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