|
Post by lonelysummer on May 2, 2023 19:09:25 GMT
Let's not forget that albums were not looked upon as serious or great art until the time of Highway 61 Revisited, Rubber Soul, and Pet Sounds. I let this prevent me for many years from grabbing early rock and roll albums. Chuck Berry's first album, After School Session, is one of my favorites. So what if it's just a grab bag of songs from singles, instrumentals, and session leftovers. It's great from start to finish! Likewise, the pre-PS BB's albums are underrated by many, despite that being their most commercially fertile period. I don't mind the instrumentals (Surfin' USA is one of my favorite BB albums) or the talking tracks. They're all part of that period before rock and roll became just "rock" and got all artsy and serious. One thing that I don't accept is that just because "that's how things were at the time," we're supposed to enjoy them now. Whether we're talking about how albums were thought of (e.g., disposable fun versus high art), or production styles, or instrumentation, or whatever else, I just don't think it's relevant from a personal enjoyment standpoint. From a historical one, sure. It would make no sense to expect something to fit expectations of some completely different context. Why weren't early '50s bands writing and playing all their own material, all originals with deep social messages? Obviously, because that wasn't what was done. That's simple reality. But it doesn't mean you have to like it. There is a big difference between understanding and enjoying. The talk tracks, the simple and dull instrumentals, the jokes--I do think they hurt those Beach Boys albums for my taste. It's irrelevant whether it was more normal for the times. EDIT - to look at it from another angle, if one were to take the "but that's how it was done then" mindset too seriously, then it becomes harder to criticize "Wipeout," or "Smart Girls," or excessive Autotuning and having all recordings pieced together via exhaustive digital editing of individually recorded (and heavily comped together) tracks rather than musicians in the same room making music. After all, "you have to understand that's how it's done now"... What's to stop you from making your own versions of these albums? In effect, that's what they did with the "Capitol Value" Green label series in the 80's. Turned all the 12 track albums into 10 track albums - and leaving out what they believed to be the weakest tracks. I guess we can't help but apply a late 60's lense (or a 2023 lense) to the old albums we still play today. I think all the criticism of those pre-PS albums is fair; just trying to provide some context for the era in which they were created. (and now some smart mouth is going to say "then why didn't we get "Cassius Lennon Versus Sonny McCartney", "Ringo's Drums", or 'Our Favorite Tea Drinking Sessions"? Well, we sort of did on the US A Hard Days Night and Help soundtracks.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on May 2, 2023 19:20:25 GMT
What's to stop you from making your own versions of these albums? In effect, that's what they did with the "Capitol Value" Green label series in the 80's. Turned all the 12 track albums into 10 track albums - and leaving out what they believed to be the weakest tracks. I guess we can't help but apply a late 60's lense (or a 2023 lense) to the old albums we still play today. I think all the criticism of those pre-PS albums is fair; just trying to provide some context for the era in which they were created. (and now some smart mouth is going to say "then why didn't we get "Cassius Lennon Versus Sonny McCartney", "Ringo's Drums", or 'Our Favorite Tea Drinking Sessions"? Well, we sort of did on the US A Hard Days Night and Help soundtracks. Oh, nothing whatsoever! As we can see by our threads, I'm among those who do that all the time. I do it even for post-Beatles/Dylan albums, when people were thinking in terms of albums as cohesive statements, but I do it much more for earlier rock and roll. That's actually where I'm more a "greatest hits" album kind of guy, even though I tend not to be for later artists. With the Beach Boys, I usually end up with one album I love out of two actual albums, give or take. There is something special for me about an album that I love as-is, released as intended, somehow good all the way through and seemingly a single work. (Not necessarily some kind of concept album, I don't care about that at all. I just mean really strong straight through, the way B Wilson always talks about his reaction to Rubber Soul.) But that said, as I age, I'm much more satisfied buying singles (albeit digital nowadays) or select tracks, and putting them in my own playlists or just listening to them as one-offs. I guess I wasted too much money on mediocre albums with a few good songs in the name of completeness! (Also, I do want to stress, I appreciate you putting things in context. I think that's worthwhile, because you're right that it's not fair to assume an album from, say, 1962, would have been considered in the way that bands might have put an album together five or 10 years later.)
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on May 2, 2023 19:35:17 GMT
OK, I've cast (some of?) my votes. Along the lines of my earlier post in this thread--which was effectively rebutted by B.E.--I was, and am, struggling because there aren't 10 songs I like as closers, and there are barely 10 songs that are closers that I like. My list of 10 is actually a mix of different lists. And so while BE mentioned the "purest" results, I'm not sure combining a few lists of different things just to get to 10 is better than selecting fewer than 10 songs that I do rank as my favorite of the closers. That said, I'm listing 10 songs below in rough order. However, so far, I've only voted for six. 1. Caroline No 2. Surf's Up Those two are easy choices for me as the best the band ever did as album closers. They are both great songs and great closers. 3. Summer's Gone I don't like it as much as a song, and definitely don't think it's a classic, but it's a good song, and it's an effective closer. 4. Funky Pretty 5. And Your Dreams Come True 6. Just Once In My Life These all work pretty well, for different reasons. I like but don't love them all. I should note the order among those three could be shuffled any-old way. 7. Cabinessence - I love it as a song, but hate it as a closer. It's better than all but the top two songs, actually. 8. Don't Back Down - Ditto about loving the song, not its role as a closer. 9. Mama Says - Just as I like the meditative or whimsical palette cleanser as an opener, I'm fine with something lightweight to close. But it's a lightweight, to be sure. It's not even a song, it's an exercise. 10. Transcendental Meditation - I like it in a way, in that it's so out of place. Someone years ago said he was convinced it was very intentionally placed at the end of the album as a kind of jarring change of pace. Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but I can kind-of appreciate that as a sick joke. And I like the song more than many do, though it's certainly not among the band's best, by a long shot... Those final four could be rearranged, because they really aren't even all the same category of song.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 2, 2023 19:49:41 GMT
I do get the point - and agree - that those early Beach Boys' albums (including the 1964-65 ones) predated when albums became or were considered "art", and for sake of discussion say that was late 1965-1966. But, that doesn't keep me from wishing Brian had been ahead of that particular curve. Even though I was too young to be following The Beach Boys or buying their albums in 1964-65, I get the feeling that The Beach Boys were seen as more Monkee-esque than say, Dylan-like or Beatlemania. While all three (The Beach Boys, Bob Dylan, and The Beatles) had a sense of humor both on records and on stage, The Beach Boys seemed to be more juvenile and even teenybopper. Most of the group WERE younger. And that's why I think those talk/comedy/skit tracks happened. I think The Beach Boys were trying to appeal to a slightly - repeat slightly - younger and less serious (mature?) audience. Is that fair? With those goofy tracks, it gave young Sally and Billy a chance to hear the individual Beach Boys' speaking voices in different settings. Ooh, Denny speaks. Carl is so sweet. Brian sounds cool. Isn't Mike funny. It wasn't art, but it was enticing and it was different. Who else was doing that? It was almost Tiger Beat on vinyl. It was almost The Partridge Family.
Sometimes I wish Brian would've taken the 1963-1965 albums more seriously, and it surprises me that he didn't. At least I don't think he did. He was an "artist" even then, into arranging and production as much as performing. He wasn't just trying to sell records, even though that was important to him. He wanted to "show" his peers, he wanted to compete with them, he wanted to beat them. I guess he didn't mind the goofy tracks, the short lengths of the albums, the questionable sequencing, heck, even the album titles themselves. Capitol probably had some say in things, and even though Brian was obviously younger and in full control of the music, maybe he just went along with some suggestions like he eventually did in his later career. We do know singles were important to him.
I haven't read much about Brian and the other guys and Capitol Records choosing the album titles and the actual sequencing of the albums. I'm assuming Brian determined which songs were actually submitted for the albums, but I wonder how much Capitol took over from there. Jeez, who can I blame? I'm an admitted "sequence nut" and at times a Mr. Know-It-All, but I seriously question how much time Brian and Capitol Records spent on the final tracklist and sequencing on those early albums? I really don't think it was substantial. Did Brian or anybody listen to the album/sequence over a couple days - in their car or at home? Did they "play with" different configurations? I wouldn't be surprised if it was done quickly and without much serious discussion. I also wonder how much the people at Capitol Records who were handling The Beach Boys...knew what they were doing. I truly believe if you took out those talk/comedy/skit tracks, substituted them with other "regular" songs that were recorded/available, made the albums longer by one song, and dedicated more serious thought to the sequencing, those Beach Boys' albums would improve by one full grade (either number, letter, or *).
|
|
Barco
Denny's Drums
Posts: 41
Likes: 72
|
Post by Barco on May 2, 2023 20:29:41 GMT
Out of the albums I've listened to in their entirety, I couldn't make it to ten decent picks. Actually, I don't think it even got to seven decent picks. I don't know most of their post Surf's Up career (I'd gladly take suggestions as to what is worth listening and what is not, by the way) so this may be big part of the reason why my list looks like this.
1. Caroline, No 2. Whistle In 3. Surf's Up 4. And Your Dreams Come True 5. Transcendental Meditation 6. Don't Back Down 7. Auld Lang Syne 8. Custom Machine 9. Bull Sessions With 'Big Daddy' - 10. Cabinessence
Caroline, No, Whistle In and Surf's Up are the only ones above I think of as great closers. And Your Dreams Come True and Transcendental Meditation are fine, I enjoy both songs and they work out OK as their album's final track. I really like Don't Back Down but I don't see it as an ideal closer at all. Bull Sessions is present because 1 - as the final thing on Today!, I don't really have to skip it to get to the next song like I do, for example, Our Favorite Recording Sessions because the album's already over on ITBOMM 2 - it is honestly a less hideous closer than my other options here. Cabinessence is a very good song but an unbelievably horrible closer.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on May 2, 2023 20:31:33 GMT
Even though I was too young to be following The Beach Boys or buying their albums in 1964-65, I get the feeling that The Beach Boys were seen as more Monkee-esque than say, Dylan-like or Beatlemania. While all three (The Beach Boys, Bob Dylan, and The Beatles) had a sense of humor both on records and on stage, The Beach Boys seemed to be more juvenile and even teenybopper. Most of the group WERE younger. And that's why I think those talk/comedy/skit tracks happened. I think The Beach Boys were trying to appeal to a slightly - repeat slightly - younger and less serious (mature?) audience. Is that fair? With those goofy tracks, it gave young Sally and Billy a chance to hear the individual Beach Boys' speaking voices in different settings. Ooh, Denny speaks. Carl is so sweet. Brian sounds cool. Isn't Mike funny. It wasn't art, but it was enticing and it was different. Who else was doing that? It was almost Tiger Beat on vinyl. It was almost The Partridge Family. Along these lines--and this is something I've never really thought about before--beyond their actual ages, there are their life experiences. The Beatles had gone to a foreign country as young men to perform marathon shows nightly in bars, not to mention touring the UK. Bob Dylan had left his smaller-town roots for college in Minneapolis, but soon quit school, went to New York City, and established himself there. The Beach Boys' father/uncle managed them and got them a record contract. Carl and David, at least, presumably still lived at home. They all were still more or less in their hometown (or at least the greater Los Angeles area). My point is, even were they not slightly younger, their experiences were "younger."
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on May 2, 2023 23:24:50 GMT
and now some smart mouth is going to say "then why didn't we get "Cassius Lennon Versus Sonny McCartney", "Ringo's Drums", or 'Our Favorite Tea Drinking Sessions"? Well, we sort of did on the US A Hard Days Night and Help soundtracks. Smart mouth or not, that's a legitimate point. And including instrumentals from the films...on a soundtrack album...is hardly the same thing as those Beach Boys tracks you reference. If we are going to treat Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys as rivalling musical peers of the Beatles, then this is fair game. If the Beatles held themselves to a higher standard during the early-mid '60s, then the Beach Boys could have, too. That said, it is relevant to bring up those Capitol releases. The Beatles couldn't control them at that point, and their quality control did take a hit as a result. Perhaps the Beach Boys were similarly helpless and at the mercy of Capitol, but I think taking that stance would be awfully generous. There's no evidence of Brian or the Beach Boys pushing back on the status quo. There's certainly no real-time alternate discography to prove otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by lonelysummer on May 3, 2023 6:50:36 GMT
It's strange how poorly the Beach Boys fare on closing tracks compared to some of their peers. Bob Dylan, for example, nearly always has a great closing track - It's All Over Now, Baby Blue, Desolation Row, Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands, Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You, Sara, Where Are You Tonight, Every Grain of Sand, Shooting Star, Highlands...but he was thinking albums from day one. It was very rare he recorded a single as a single. Positively 4th Street, Watching the River Flow, George Jackson, Mixed Up Confusion...any others? Even with Capitol getting their hands on Beatles albums, they usually had a great closing track - Not a Second Time, She Loves You, Tomorrow Never Knows, A Day in the Life, The End... But I can also make an argument for the lost art of the single. I still collect 45's. I love a good one-two punch. Surfin' USA/Shut Down. Surfer Girl/Little Deuce Coupe. I Get Around/Don't Worry Baby. California Girls/Let Him Run Wild. I guess with streaming and downloads being "the thing" now, b-sides are a relic from the past.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 3, 2023 11:52:44 GMT
Now, addressing the second half (post-Pet Sounds):
"Whistle In" - Not bad, not bad at all.
"Surf's Up" - I guess it depends on whether you think the song even belongs on the album, but, somehow it works very well after "A Day In The Life Of A Tree" and "Til I Die".
"Cuddle Up" - Simply one of the best, both the song and as a closer, especially the instrumental fade.
"Summer's Gone" - I continue to say that this song is vastly underrated. Period. The only question I have as it pertains to this particular thread is - Is "Summer's Gone" a better closer than "Pacific Coast Highway"?
Random thoughts:
"Mama Says" - A joke, and I don't mean that in a funny, positive way.
"Cool, Cool Water" - Nope, not with "It's About Time" available.
"Funky Pretty" - Not bad, but I would've ended Holland with "California Saga: California". Maybe end Side 1 with "Funky Pretty".
"Just Once In My Life" - For 47 years I've been trying to come up with a better closer for 15 Big Ones, and the only other two I would consider would be "TM Song" and "That Same Song". Actually, the more I think about it, those two might be better!
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on May 4, 2023 0:48:48 GMT
Now, addressing the second half (post-Pet Sounds):
"Whistle In" - Not bad, not bad at all.
"Surf's Up" - I guess it depends on whether you think the song even belongs on the album, but, somehow it works very well after "A Day In The Life Of A Tree" and "Til I Die".
"Cuddle Up" - Simply one of the best, both the song and as a closer, especially the instrumental fade.
"Summer's Gone" - I continue to say that this song is vastly underrated. Period. The only question I have as it pertains to this particular thread is - Is "Summer's Gone" a better closer than "Pacific Coast Highway"?
Random thoughts:
"Mama Says" - A joke, and I don't mean that in a funny, positive way.
"Cool, Cool Water" - Nope, not with "It's About Time" available.
"Funky Pretty" - Not bad, but I would've ended Holland with "California Saga: California". Maybe end Side 1 with "Funky Pretty".
"Just Once In My Life" - For 47 years I've been trying to come up with a better closer for 15 Big Ones, and the only other two I would consider would be "TM Song" and "That Same Song". Actually, the more I think about it, those two might be better!
I largely agree regarding "Surf's Up" and "Cuddle Up" (which I ranked 1st and 4th). I also agree that "Whistle In" isn't a bad closer. I think it works well, it's just not a very consequential track and that's why it didn't make my top 10. Same with "Mama Says". Those are of the tag/song fragment variety of closers. They can be very effective and, frankly, often the only suitable role for such tracks. I rated "Summer's Gone" very highly (2nd). I think it's an incredibly poignant track, the extended fade, especially. I can't really imagine sequencing it any other way, certainly not without significant editing of the fade (which would only lessen the track). In thinking about it, I don't think it would have been ideal/appropriate to title the album Summer's Gone, but I'm entirely sold on using that as the closer (of both the album and their recording career). Not that I'm defending the song from you, as you said you think it's vastly underrated. I suppose that means you'd rank it quite highly, too? Even if you suspect another track might have worked better as the closer, surely "Summer's Gone" still has much merit? Regarding, "It's About Time", I'll never hear that! And I also can't hear "TM Song" or (especially) "That Same Song" as closers either. Maybe I'm unimaginative. But I think "Just Once In My Life" is just about the best option for closing 15 Big Ones. It probably is the best. I just have a minor issue or two with the production of the track that keeps it out of contention. As an aside, I'm glad to see a few votes for "Shortenin Bread" and "It's Just A Matter of Time". Didn't make my list, but I like 'em and I'm glad to see others do, too.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 4, 2023 11:40:14 GMT
Now, addressing the second half (post-Pet Sounds):
"Whistle In" - Not bad, not bad at all.
"Surf's Up" - I guess it depends on whether you think the song even belongs on the album, but, somehow it works very well after "A Day In The Life Of A Tree" and "Til I Die".
"Cuddle Up" - Simply one of the best, both the song and as a closer, especially the instrumental fade.
"Summer's Gone" - I continue to say that this song is vastly underrated. Period. The only question I have as it pertains to this particular thread is - Is "Summer's Gone" a better closer than "Pacific Coast Highway"?
Random thoughts:
"Mama Says" - A joke, and I don't mean that in a funny, positive way.
"Cool, Cool Water" - Nope, not with "It's About Time" available.
"Funky Pretty" - Not bad, but I would've ended Holland with "California Saga: California". Maybe end Side 1 with "Funky Pretty".
"Just Once In My Life" - For 47 years I've been trying to come up with a better closer for 15 Big Ones, and the only other two I would consider would be "TM Song" and "That Same Song". Actually, the more I think about it, those two might be better!
And I also can't hear "TM Song" or (especially) "That Same Song" as closers either. Maybe I'm unimaginative. But I think "Just Once In My Life" is just about the best option for closing 15 Big Ones. It probably is the best. I just have a minor issue or two with the production of the track that keeps it out of contention. I think "TM Song" and "That Same Song" work as closers in two ways - the lyrics ("What time is it, how long has it been..." and "We're still singing that same song...") - and the endings. I like the whimsical, abrupt ending of "TM Song" and the fade of "That Same Song". Like I said, I've been contemplating closing tracks for 15 Big Ones for many years. There's just something about "Just Once In My Life" that never quite sit right with me, but, hey, if I still can't decide on what's best after 50 years...
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on May 4, 2023 11:57:20 GMT
"Summer's Gone" - I continue to say that this song is vastly underrated. Period. The only question I have as it pertains to this particular thread is - Is "Summer's Gone" a better closer than "Pacific Coast Highway"?
I agree with you, including with the insinuation that PCH is a better closer than Summer's Gone. BUT ... Summer's Gone is a good closer, and one of the band's best. That it isn't the best closer on its own album is just an interesting aside for me, for our purposes here.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 4, 2023 12:00:44 GMT
"Summer's Gone" - I continue to say that this song is vastly underrated. Period. The only question I have as it pertains to this particular thread is - Is "Summer's Gone" a better closer than "Pacific Coast Highway"?
I agree with you, including with the insinuation that PCH is a better closer than Summer's Gone. BUT ... Summer's Gone is a good closer, and one of the band's best. That it isn't the best closer on its own album is just an interesting aside for me, for our purposes here. I agree with B.E. and you. "Summer's Gone" is a good closer - and maybe one of their best. I guess That's Why God Made The Radio just happens to be a Beach Boys' album that has two good closers.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on May 4, 2023 12:02:37 GMT
I agree with you, including with the insinuation that PCH is a better closer than Summer's Gone. BUT ... Summer's Gone is a good closer, and one of the band's best. That it isn't the best closer on its own album is just an interesting aside for me, for our purposes here. I agree with B.E. and you. "Summer's Gone" is a good closer - and maybe one of their best. I guess That's Why God Made The Radio just happens to be a Beach Boys' album that has two good closers. Which, considering their track record with closers, is remarkable! (Actually I'm sure there are good closers on other albums that just weren't used as closers...)
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 4, 2023 18:32:01 GMT
Two more...
- I had forgotten that "Forever" with John Stamos closed Summer In Paradise. The only reason(s) I could...approve of it...as a closer would be Carl's magnificent vocal part which is the peak of the album. You really can't follow that can you? And, Stamos' vocal closing the song/album is pretty good, too. I mean, "Forever" isn't bad as a closer, yet I think I would go with the title track, "Summer In Paradise". It kind of summarizes the message that Mike is trying to get across. It's a good song, I actually like it, and it might be the last great Mike Love lead vocal, with or without The Beach Boys.
- Now, "Cabinessence". Well, yeah, it's an all-timer, one of Brian's best productions ever. Mind blowing. And, I always thought the closing of "Our Prayer" into "Cabinessence" worked. I dig the sound and visual of the train chugging off into the horizon. Also, I don't discount "Do It Again" (with the clock tag) as a closer. It works in a lot of ways. But, you know what I wish they/Brian would've done. First, he would've had to finish "Old Folks At Home"/Ol' Man River". OK, there was a quasi-SMiLE thing going on with 20/20, and the ending of the album could've capitalized on it. Imagine this:
Side 2
4. Cotton Fields 5. Our Prayer 6. Cabinessence 7. Old Folks At Home/Ol' Man River
|
|