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Post by kds on Aug 1, 2022 18:33:10 GMT
I decided to give 5150 a spin today. The only thing that ever really irked me about the sound of the album is the electronic drums that Alex uses at times.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 1, 2022 18:35:09 GMT
That is my biggest gripe, too, but I have to admit they weren't as annoying and obvious in reality as they were in my mind. I mean, they're there ... but it's not SO bad.
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Post by kds on Aug 1, 2022 18:43:04 GMT
They don't really detract from the album, even if some of the drum fills in particular are a little annoying.
But, I still have to laugh at how people can listen to think and still say Sammy Hagar turned Van Halen into a pop band. Good Enough, Get Up, Best of Both Worlds, and the title track are fairly heavy. Dreams, Summer Nights, and Why Can't This Be Love definitely have those poppy hooks, but so do Dance the Night Away and Jump. Love Walks In is probably the biggest departure from what VH did on their first six albums.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 1, 2022 18:57:15 GMT
Yeah, Van Halen was always a rock band with a pop element. Hell, they came up as a cover band. And I think it's pretty fair to say that almost any (successful) cover band is going to be playing at least some pop music. Unless you want to limit yourself exclusively to a certain kind of club, you're going to try to appeal to wide audiences of people. That means Top 40, historically speaking, and a diverse set of tunes.
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Post by kds on Aug 1, 2022 19:04:20 GMT
I recently read Greg Renoff's Van Halen Rising (released in 2015), and when Van Halen played bars and back yard parties, they wanted to get people to dance more than rock.
But, like I say, fans gonna fan.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 1, 2022 21:46:31 GMT
I think Van Halen v DLR has run its course, so...
The one that immediately comes to mind was Brian Wilson releasing his first solo album in July 1988 while The Beach Boys released "Kokomo" in June 1988. We all know the results - "Kokomo" went to No. 1 and Brian's solo album, while reaching a respectable No. 54, was considered a disappointment, at least commercially ("Love And Mercy" failed to chart). We could spend a lot of time analyzing that situation and how and why it played out the way it did, but I think, in addition to "Kokomo" piggybacking on the success of Cocktail, it was also a matter of giving the fans what they wanted. With Brian's solo album, I think fans were expecting The Beach Boys' genius to give us more, well, good old Beach Boys' music, or at least some new, cutting-edge music. We got neither IMO. And, of course, with "Kokomo" we got the melody, plenty of hooks, and the familiar Mike Love and Carl Wilson voices. Game over.
For me, this "battle" depends on whether we're talking singles or albums. If we're matching the nearly contemporaneous "Love and Mercy" against "Kokomo," I've got to go with the Beach Boys. Actually I prefer the song "Love and Mercy," but that original recording? Nope. It's "Kokomo" for me for sure: the different, distinctive voices, the great melody ... I've long since gotten over my old, childish dislike of it. It's not one of my favorites, but it is a better song. And you know what else might seems surprising? It's better produced, too.
But if we're talking the July 1988 album Brian Wilson against the August 1989 album Still Cruisin, then I've got to give the nod to Wilson. There are more strong songs on it--at least assuming you remove "I Get Around," "Wouldn't It Be Nice," and "California Girls" from consideration.
However, while I understand there was a lot of conversation about the two singles at the time, was that lost by the time of Still Cruisin, more than a year later? Were people comparing it to Brian Wilson? I wasn't paying attention at the time.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 2, 2022 1:13:24 GMT
I think Van Halen v DLR has run its course, so...
The one that immediately comes to mind was Brian Wilson releasing his first solo album in July 1988 while The Beach Boys released "Kokomo" in June 1988. We all know the results - "Kokomo" went to No. 1 and Brian's solo album, while reaching a respectable No. 54, was considered a disappointment, at least commercially ("Love And Mercy" failed to chart). We could spend a lot of time analyzing that situation and how and why it played out the way it did, but I think, in addition to "Kokomo" piggybacking on the success of Cocktail, it was also a matter of giving the fans what they wanted. With Brian's solo album, I think fans were expecting The Beach Boys' genius to give us more, well, good old Beach Boys' music, or at least some new, cutting-edge music. We got neither IMO. And, of course, with "Kokomo" we got the melody, plenty of hooks, and the familiar Mike Love and Carl Wilson voices. Game over.
For me, this "battle" depends on whether we're talking singles or albums. If we're matching the nearly contemporaneous "Love and Mercy" against "Kokomo," I've got to go with the Beach Boys. Actually I prefer the song "Love and Mercy," but that original recording? Nope. It's "Kokomo" for me for sure: the different, distinctive voices, the great melody ... I've long since gotten over my old, childish dislike of it. It's not one of my favorites, but it is a better song. And you know what else might seems surprising? It's better produced, too.
But if we're talking the July 1988 album Brian Wilson against the August 1989 album Still Cruisin, then I've got to give the nod to Wilson. There are more strong songs on it--at least assuming you remove "I Get Around," "Wouldn't It Be Nice," and "California Girls" from consideration.
However, while I understand there was a lot of conversation about the two singles at the time, was that lost by the time of Still Cruisin, more than a year later? Were people comparing it to Brian Wilson? I wasn't paying attention at the time.
Again, I have to go back to the irony of the situation. Brian Wilson - Brian fu--ing Wilson! - was going to release a solo album, blow our minds, and regain his spot among rock royalty. Oh, and The Beach Boys were releasing a song from a movie soundtrack. Well, well, well. Who'd a thunk it. Brian released a single that didn't chart, he didn't tour or make a video to promote the single/album, and the solo album quickly came and went. And the Beach Boys? They got a #1 single, an album that eventually went platinum thanks to that single, and their live audiences enthusiastically spiked as they attracted new fans.
The albums - Brian Wilson 1988 vs. Still Cruisin'? Yeah, I'd also give the nod to Brian, and I'm not necessarily a big fan of his first solo album. I don't care for the production or the vocals, and I think the songs are among the weakest - on any album - that Brian contributed to date. But, the reason why I would vote for Brian is because at least he cared, at least he tried. He was ambitious and gave us an entire project, something that he devoted a lot of time and effort to. On the other hand, AGAIN The Beach boys disappointed with an album that, for several reasons, was not assembled correctly or efficiently. I won't go into all the ways that Still Cruisin' could've been improved - we've been over that - but I will say it would've been easy to release a much stronger follow-up to "Kokomo", regardless that it sold well.
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Post by kds on Aug 2, 2022 12:41:25 GMT
Being honest, in 1988, how long had it been since Brian Wilson had really "blown minds"? Depending on your tastes, it had probably been somewhere between 11-21 years.
BW88 does have some really good material on it. I'm still not sure if Love and Mercy has a truly definitive version. Melt Away and Let It Shine are really good. Baby Let Your Hair Grow Long and One For the Boys are worthwhile listens.
One of the most mind blowing things is that The Beach Boys in this era actually had better productions than Brian had released. Even with that uber late 80s sax, Kokomo sounds worlds better than Love and Mercy (if we're talking individual songs).
I do wonder if L&M might've made more of a dent had Brian done a video. MTV was a pretty powerful beast in its heyday.
I'd also personally give the nod to Still Cruisin' over the BW album, even acknowledging that BW88 is a true album, and SC is more of an EP padded out with catalog songs. Melt Away might be the best song on either album, but I'd probably take the five best songs on SC over the best five songs on BW88, and I guess I'd rather listen to the BB attempt at rap and three catalog classics than Night Time or Rio Grande.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 2, 2022 12:53:01 GMT
Being honest, in 1988, how long had it been since Brian Wilson had really "blown minds"? Depending on your tastes, it had probably been somewhere between 11-21 years. It was a long time, depending on what you considered "mind-blowing". But, to your point, it would probably be considered all the way back to Pet Sounds and "Good Vibrations" which would've been 20 years previous. The thing was, realistic or not, that's how almost everybody was approaching Brian's 1988 solo album. Brian Wilson was finally shedding The Beach Boys - and that evil Mike Love. Brian could record and release what HE wanted to record and release. There were no restrictions, no rules (sound like 1966-67?). And, Brian certainly looked the part in 1988. Everybody was in his corner; all kind of artists/musicians were coming out and encouraging him. Brian Wilson 1988 was an overall critical success but a commercial failure, however, it wasn't because of a lack of attention or hype.
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Post by kds on Aug 2, 2022 13:02:38 GMT
Being honest, in 1988, how long had it been since Brian Wilson had really "blown minds"? Depending on your tastes, it had probably been somewhere between 11-21 years. It was a long time, depending on what you considered "mind-blowing". But, to your point, it would probably be considered all the way back to Pet Sounds and "Good Vibrations" which would've been 20 years previous. The thing was, realistic or not, that's how almost everybody was approaching Brian's 1988 solo album. Brian Wilson was finally shedding The Beach Boys - and that evil Mike Love. Brian could record and release what HE wanted to record and release. There were no restrictions, no rules (sound like 1966-67?). And, Brian certainly looked the part in 1988. Everybody was in his corner; all kind of artists/musicians were coming out and encouraging him. Brian Wilson 1988 was an overall critical success but a commercial failure, however, it wasn't because of a lack of attention or hype. I can kinda see how that was the perception. But, despite the fact that there's a lot I like from Brian's solo career, that perception and reality don't really meet. However, I wonder if Dr. Landy had not been involved, would we have gotten something like this One For the Boys Still Cruisin' Melt Away Kokomo Baby Let Your Hair Grow Long Island Girl Let It Shine Somewhere Near Japan In My Car Make It Big Little Children Love and Mercy
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 2, 2022 13:07:57 GMT
The thing was, realistic or not, that's how almost everybody was approaching Brian's 1988 solo album. Brian Wilson was finally shedding The Beach Boys - and that evil Mike Love. Brian could record and release what HE wanted to record and release. There were no restrictions, no rules (sound like 1966-67?). And, Brian certainly looked the part in 1988. Everybody was in his corner; all kind of artists/musicians were coming out and encouraging him. Brian Wilson 1988 was an overall critical success but a commercial failure, however, it wasn't because of a lack of attention or hype. That's just it: not realistic. But you're right, it's how people wanted things to be playing out: free at least, the genius was going to do genius things. Reality was, Brian was getting healthier and looked better, but very obviously was still not mentally healthy and certainly not in control, or even comfortable in the musical landscape of 1988. It was a failure compared to hype and dreams of Brianistas, but a huge success in that not only had he not died or "stayed in bed," but he finished and released an album with some good material. Low expectations? Sure, for 1966 Brian. But probably not for 1988 Brian.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 2, 2022 13:27:19 GMT
For some Beach Boys' fans, myself included, there were signs that a new "mind-blowing" solo album from Brian might NOT be a slam dunk. The last Beach Boys' album, The Beach Boys (1985), didn't include any great Brian Wilson-written songs. And then there was the single from the Police Academy 4 Soundtrack, "Let's Go To Heaven In My Car"/"Too Much Sugar" which wasn't exactly a classic. And, finally, there was that "Living Doll"/ Barbie flex-disc that, while impressive in parts, also wasn't...special. So, I can't say that there any releases leading up to Brian Wilson that made me expect something outstanding. Let's just say I was cautiously optimistic, emphasis on cautiously.
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Post by kds on Aug 2, 2022 13:31:53 GMT
I don't think Let's Go to Heaven in My Car is a classic (although I think it's better than at least a third of BW88), but I still believe some a little push, it might've at least been a minor hit. It reminds me of some of the stuff the likes of Eddie Money and Huey Lewis were putting out at the time.
Hitching the wagon to Police Academy 4 also might not have helped. Those movies might've made a profit, but their soundtracks never berthed any hit songs.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 2, 2022 13:33:52 GMT
It's funny, because while on our first matchup, I saw both albums as successes. With this one, I see them both as both successes and failures, or at least major missed opportunities.
The Beach Boys had a massive hit, their first in quite a long time. And what's more, you could see it (as Mike Love obviously did) as a triumph for the group minus the guy always held up as the real reason for their success. But then they failed to even remotely approach it with future singles (imo), took forever to release the next album, and the next album wasn't really a fully new album anyway.
Brian Wilson finally got healthy enough to seem presentable and was seemingly out of the woods. He was working, even if he wasn't the master in control in the way he used to be. He wrote and recorded some very good songs. But the result was very much dated, failed to strike a chord with the public, and he continued even further down the Landy path for a few years.
As kds indicated in his post, you can't help but wish they'd been able to maintain Brian's healthy momentum but also reincorporating him fully into the group.
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Post by kds on Aug 2, 2022 13:36:38 GMT
It really made for an odd time in Beach Boys history. The Beach Boys were riding high on a hit song without Brian. To muddy the waters even more, Brian was still kind of in the group, and even appeared on the Beach Boys Bingo episode of Full House, and can be seen singing Kokomo in concert at the end of the episode.
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