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Post by Kapitan on Dec 3, 2021 15:19:32 GMT
I understand this topic has bubbled up again on various boards, apparently causing a certain amount of discussion or even discord. I trust we can handle the former without the latter.
So I'll tee it up: do you think the time has come for Brian Wilson to retire? What about the rest of the surviving Beach Boys? Why or why not? Nuanced answers welcome. And let's keep in mind that everyone here is a "real fan." That's not the question, regardless of our positions on the topic.
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
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Post by Emdeeh on Dec 3, 2021 16:01:10 GMT
I don’t think that we fans (aka the general public) have any right to ask an artist to retire. It’s not up to us to make that decision. We can retire ourselves from supporting the artist’s work, but that’s all.
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Post by kds on Dec 3, 2021 16:29:44 GMT
I don’t think that we fans (aka the general public) have any right to ask an artist to retire. It’s not up to us to make that decision. We can retire ourselves from supporting the artist’s work, but that’s all. Generally, that's where I am. It's not up to any of us to make the call. There's no secret that both Brian's and Mike's vocals have deteriorated very noticeably in recent years. But, if the concert going public still wants to pay money (and compared to some of their peers, BB related shows are very affordable) to hear those classic songs performed by some of the members of the band, I see no harm. Luckily, Mike and Brian have surrounded themselves with really good support bands and vocalists to cover up their limitations to a certain degree. That said, unless either does a special tour (ie. Christmas Album / Great in '68) or there's a reunion tour, then I've probably attended my last Beach Boys related concert. And, having attended eleven shows (C50, five Brian shows, three Mike & Bruce, and two Al shows) between 2012-2020, I'm OK with that.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 3, 2021 18:40:27 GMT
My opinion is this: "should" is a strong word, and it requires another question, which is what is "to what end?" What is the logic or justification of the "should?"
If it's "he should retire because I don't like watching him perform anymore," then fuck that: I'm the one in control of whether I see him perform. If it' "he should retire because he's embarrassing himself," I again have to say no: he is the only one who can say whether he's embarrassing himself, in that embarrassment is a feeling one has, not something for me to say, for me to project onto him. Even a person dancing around with his pants on his head isn't embarrassing himself unless he feels embarrassment, whatever the rest of us watching him might think he should feel.
It seems to me that basically every scenario to justify the "should" comes back to "I personally wish that," or "I'd like to see," which all goes back to my control over my own behavior. I could add Brian Wilson to the nearly endless list of musicians whose shows I don't see and whose albums I don't hear anytime I want--but there is no reason to impose my preferences on someone else's life.
Brian should retire if and when he wants to retire, or if he is no longer capable of making that decision, when his family or legal representatives decide for him. (And lest anyone take the latter half of that and run wild with it, I'm not going to speculate on whether Brian is being driven by his money-hungry "wifeandmanagers," etc. Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. But I honestly have no reason to feel particularly suspicious about it. I believe that he generally wants to tour, even if it doesn't seem like it to observers.)
There are potential downsides to him touring. It's true that his reputation could suffer if his performances continue to decline. More people may well write out of concern that he ought to hang it up. Journalists, critics, and fans alike are often glad to publicly speculate. But there's still no "should" in that, unless Brian himself is concerned about such things. It's true that as his physical condition deteriorates, he could literally be in increased physical danger, just in terms of the logistics of travel, of moving around, even of getting on and off stage. (He has mitigated that damage by allowing others to help him, or by using a wheelchair. The result seems to be more calls for him to quit.) There is again no "should" in that.
When Brian returned to touring and a more active recording career, it seemed partly about showing he still had "it," or could recapture "it." That he wasn't the damaged and obviously unwell person he had become in the '70s and, under Landy, in the '80s and beyond. It seemed at least in part about proving something. I think the questions themselves have been answered as well as they will ever be: yes, he proved he was still capable of making good music; yes, he proved he was capable of overcoming his fear/dislike of live performing to the tune of dozens-to-hundreds of shows a year; no, he is not going to return to peak form, probably in any sense (singing, songwriting, production). So you could say he "should" retire because those sorts of questions have been answered to the degree they ever will be. But again, there's no objective "should" in that, either.
In the end, Brian Wilson has no more and no fewer rights than the rest of us as a human being, to (in what was codified in this country before its founding) the pursuit of happiness. His decision doesn't have to match our wishes for him; it doesn't have to follow the logic of his fans; it doesn't have to make others comfortable; it doesn't have to depend on artistic or commercial success. We can say "but if he does this, X might happen!"
Yep. It might. But the "should" is still based on whether he is concerned that "X might happen" more than he wants to keep doing what he's doing. It's not some objective, not necessarily his "should."
It's entirely possible I won't see him live again. (The Pet Sounds show I saw some four, five years ago was already quite uncomfortable in parts, despite the great band.) I'm sure I'll keep buying every studio and archival release, though I may find myself increasingly disappointed in them.
My choices are mine, his are his. Brian Wilson should do whatever the hell he wants.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 3, 2021 18:44:43 GMT
I should also say, most of that goes for the other Beach Boys as well. (Obviously not the Brian-specific parts! But the logic.)
And I can easily understand why a person might think any or all of them should hang it up, meaning "if it were me, I wouldn't want to do that," or "I wish they would stop doing that." I get it. I just don't think that's reason enough for someone else to do something he wants to do.
And I can also easily understand why any or all of them don't want to hang it up. I've seen plenty of aging relatives and occasionally friends who had a short path from inactivity to the grave. Life isn't long, and retirement can feel like giving up and waiting to die. I would guess that's exactly how Mike Love looks at it, for example (not that I would truly know).
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Post by kds on Dec 3, 2021 19:00:22 GMT
The one other point I'll make about retirement is a point I made several years ago on SSMB.
I wish that, before going into the C50 tour, BRI has agreed that the name "The Beach Boys" as a live entity would be retired on the conclusion of that tour, and once business went back to normal, the touring band (featuring Mike and Bruce) would have to amend the name to something like "Mike Love's Beach Boys" or "The Beach Boys featuring Mike Love." I really don't think that would've affected Mike's attendance numbers all that much, as he really doesn't play big venues. And, I feel like so much aggravation, gnashing of teeth, and strife could've been avoided.
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Post by B.E. on Dec 3, 2021 19:09:44 GMT
The one other point I'll came about retirement is a point I made several years ago on SSMB. I wish that, before going into the C50 tour, BRI has agreed that the name "The Beach Boys" as a live entity would be retired on the conclusion of that tour, and once business went back to normal, the touring band (featuring Mike and Bruce) would have to amend the name to something like "Mike Love's Beach Boys" or "The Beach Boys featuring Mike Love." I really don't think that would've affected Mike's attendance numbers all that much, as he really doesn't play big venues. And, I feel like so much aggravation, gnashing of teeth, and strife could've been avoided. I agree with that. Especially that I don’t think it would have significantly affected ticket sales. And Al might have felt more comfortable performing similarly titled shows himself years ago. It’s easy enough to market such a concert as, essentially, The Beach Boys featuring (whichever) few members. Concertgoers don’t care about that distinction.
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Post by kds on Dec 3, 2021 19:13:42 GMT
The one other point I'll came about retirement is a point I made several years ago on SSMB. I wish that, before going into the C50 tour, BRI has agreed that the name "The Beach Boys" as a live entity would be retired on the conclusion of that tour, and once business went back to normal, the touring band (featuring Mike and Bruce) would have to amend the name to something like "Mike Love's Beach Boys" or "The Beach Boys featuring Mike Love." I really don't think that would've affected Mike's attendance numbers all that much, as he really doesn't play big venues. And, I feel like so much aggravation, gnashing of teeth, and strife could've been avoided. I agree with that. Especially that I don’t think it would have significantly affected ticket sales. And Al might have felt more comfortable performing similarly titled shows himself years ago. It’s easy enough to market such a concert as, essentially, The Beach Boys featuring (whichever) few members. Concertgoers don’t care about that distinction. I agree, especially with the venues M&B play. There are plenty of other legacy acts with amended names that people go to see without a second thought.
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Post by jk on Dec 3, 2021 21:11:24 GMT
When a fellow EH'er complained of feeling deeply disappointed with the quality of Brian's recent work in the studio and in concert, I added (increasingly to my eternal shame), "Which is why, in my humble and respectful opinion, Brian should stop before it gets truly embarrassing and retire. As if he still has anything to prove!!!" Ther next thing I know, it's the subject of an entire thread "across the road". The best I can say about my uncalled-for remark is that it brought out into the open a topic that had long been smoldering but was perhaps difficult to broach. Since then I have read some wonderfully heart-warming (and occasionally heart-rending) testimonies on Brian's behalf from many at that forum. And now here as well… This has happened before. Once I made a sweeping statement about the music business at that forum and was firmly but kindly lectured by SWD on the way things really were. He might never have explained it in such detail otherwise. Once again, a silver lining... To be honest, I think it best if I restrict my activity in this thread to reading, digesting and hopefully learning from the wise words of others.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 3, 2021 21:27:49 GMT
While I obviously made my opinion clear, I also think it's more than fine for others to disagree. The only opinions I can imagine really not accepting, myself, are those from obvious troll types, which thankfully we've remained basically free of. Speaking for myself, it won't give me any heartburn to read disagreements.
I also hope everyone on this board feels comfortable speaking up with their opinions. We don't need any shaming or belittling. I see no reason anyone ought to feel shame over a good-faith post, almost regardless of the content. And jk, it's obvious to me and I'd suspect anyone else with any sense that you post in good faith. Please don't worry: posts are just posts, little meaningless collections of letters (in the bigger picture). No reason for anxiety and the like.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 4, 2021 6:07:56 GMT
Before I ask myself the question proposed on this thread - SHOULD Brian Wilson retire - I have to first ask myself why is he touring in the first place. Brian Wilson has been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder which is a mental disorder, so, in effect, Brian has a disability. Unfortunately, Brian's recurring back problems would also be categorized as a disability. He is now using wheelchairs, walkers, and assistance from others in walking. Brian Wilson is being treated by doctors and is prescribed medication, therefore, in the State Of California, Brian Wilson has an open case. Certain documentation and monitoring is required by law. The person "in charge" of that case would be a Case Manager, also known as a Supports Coordinator, or basically a person who has the responsibility of making sure that Brian is receiving the proper care, services, and supports to live a happy, independent, and productive life. In many cases, the case manager is responsible for assembling a team to offer services to the patient/client and then monitoring those services. In Brian's case, the team probably consists of a psychiatrist/psychologist, a physician, a physical therapist, a nutritionist, his business manager, and his wife. The team, again under the leadership of the case manager, will then come up with a treatment plan complete with preferences and strategies to help Brian achieve his goals. For the sake of discussion, let's say that Brian's goals are to pursue activities that lead to productivity, happiness, and a healthy lifestyle. Of course the subjects of recording and performing music were brought up by someone on the team, and I'm guessing it was approved and endorsed by everyone on the team - including Brian. Two questions that are applicable to this thread. First, does this goal of recording and performing become music/physical/occupational therapy, art, or both? And, second, how much did/does Brian "buy into" it? I'll leave that up to each of you to answer. Or - or - maybe Melinda and Brian just sat down at the kitchen table one night a few decades ago and Melinda said, "You know, Brian, I think you need to get back in the studio and back on the road", to which Brian simply replied, "Yeah, OK." And that was that.
It would've been so much easier if Brian Wilson was Brian Smith, and just played in a band, maybe the bass or the organ, could just blend into the background, and didn't have to be the lead singer, or the focal centerpiece. They did try as much as they could to eliminate those pressures and responsibilities with Brian's shows. Brian didn't have to play an instrument, he didn't have to stand, he didn't have to interact with the band, and he didn't have to interact with the audience. His only real responsibility was to sit on a stool and sing for an hour and a half. If you got any hand gestures, flailing arms, a tinkling of the keys, or talking, it was considered a bonus. And you know what, Brian made a twenty-five year touring career out of it, and much of it was well-received and praised. I think the situation was similar with the recording. Brian didn't appear to be doing the heavy lifting in the studio. Brian did what he wanted to do and didn't do what he didn't want to do. Unlike the live performances, we'll never really know exactly what Brian contributed to his solo recordings.
Like I said, Brian had a solo career for well over a quarter of a century. Like it or dislike it, love it or hate it, approve of it or disapprove of it, he was out there or in there doing it. Now, as we are about to enter 2022, there appears to be some slippage; some might view it as serious slippage. Is is fair to say that Brian's vocals in concert and on record (on the recent soundtrack for instance) are the worst of his solo career? Is it fair to say that it is troubling to see him getting around with a walker and/or physical assistance from others. The man will soon be 80 years-old, with a bad back, and with that damn mental illness. Were there any or are there any other artists/musicians/rock & rollers out there performing or recording with the numerous obstacles that Brian is facing? I can't think of any, and if there were/are, it wasn't/isn't very many. Should he retire from performing and recording? Is it time? For his benefit? Does anybody have the right to even suggest it?
I don't think Brian should retire from recording, but I do think better choices should be made concerning projects undertaken and producers/co-producers who are selected. I also think better quality control should be employed on what is being recorded and ultimately released. It is more necessary now than ever. With the Long Promised Road soundtrack, Brian's vocal performance is borderline embarrassing, and I don't want to hear Brian Wilson embarrassing himself. Some of the production isn't much better, but I have no idea who was responsible for that. If every possible effort and care was undertaken, and this is the best we're going to get from Brian, then, yes, I would prefer that he retire from further recording. Am I "telling him" to retire? No, I'm just stating my opinion, my personal preference. It's ultimately Brian's decision (well... ) and I hope he does what's ultimately best for his health and happiness.
Should Brian Wilson retire from live performances/touring? Again, I won't say that he "should" retire, but, again, I would like to see him gracefully retire from the road. But, let me be more specific. I don't think touring and playing so many dates is productive (yes, yes, I get the therapy aspect). I would rather he play significantly less shows, or be integrated into a Beach Boys' setting where he isn't required to do so much of the singing. Let me ask a rhetorical question? I don't have to list all of the benefits that Brian's team would like to see him achieve by touring; we know what they are; we've discussed them as nauseam. But do you as a fan think it's working for him? When you see a man being helped on and off stage (he's obviously in pain), singing poorly (embarrassing himself?), looking...not well (is it abuse; should he be placed in that situation?), do you ever ask yourself if it's worth it? Is it possible that there is a better way, an alternative, a better therapy for Brian in achieving some mental and physical health and happiness? Is traveling the world on buses and airplanes, performing rock concerts in front of a couple thousand people, with loud speakers (don't forget the hearing issues), and being away from his family the best way for an 80 year-old Brian Wilson to be spending his time? Yes, one more time, that will ultimately be up to Brian and his team to decide...not me.
I did want to make another point, an opinion. I don't have a problem with BB/BW fans discussing this subject on messages boards, even going as far as I and others have in suggesting that Brian consider retirement from recording and performing. I consider it simply a few dedicated fans discussing one of their favorite musicians or artists. We wouldn't be discussing it if we didn't care. And, it's not like anybody is circulating a petition for Brian Wilson to retire, or boycotting and picketing shows, or directly contacting Brian and imploring him to call it a day. It's fans utilizing a form of social media to "shoot the sh---" if you will, just making conversation. I don't want to burst anybody's bubble, but I highly doubt that Brian has read a message board for one second. I also think that if and/or when one of his team members reads anything on a message board or social media that might be considered upsetting to Brian, that they refrain from telling him about it. Common sense. I won't get into all of the "hey, Brian's a professional musician and it comes with territory" points either. While they might be valid points, there are more important ones.
One last point. I promise. For now anyway. I also think the "Brian should/shouldn't retire" rhetoric on some message boards is also yet another byproduct of the Mike Love vs. Brian Wilson debate(s). From some posters I'll read about that old, bald-headed, shot-voiced, no talent, money-hungry Mike Love ruining the legacy and should definitely disappear immediately. And it's OK to say that, right? I don't see any posters or moderators saying anything about those posts. But if one poster has the gall or the guts to express their heart-felt opinion and respectfully suggests that Brian retire, it's well, how dare you say that! You must be an insensitive jerk. Who do you think you are? You can't say that about Brian Wilson. Yep, hypocrisy still reigns in some places.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2021 7:10:38 GMT
Just watched Tony Bennett's final show from radio city music hall with Lady Gaga. He retired at 95 years old in the throes of Alzheimer's and he sang his last songs and pushed it to the very end as long as he had the ability and the dignity and the will and the cheering crowd. That's exactly what all The Beach Boys should do. Use every last ounce of strength to play those songs on stage until they die.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 4, 2021 15:35:01 GMT
Just watched Tony Bennett's final show from radio city music hall with Lady Gaga. He retired at 95 years old in the throes of Alzheimer's and he sang his last songs and pushed it to the very end as long as he had the ability and the dignity and the will and the cheering crowd. That's exactly what all The Beach Boys should do. Use every last ounce of strength to play those songs on stage until they die. Hey Prof, I'm not singling out your post, but it made me think of a Dennis Wilson quote I read many years ago (maybe from David Leaf's Book?). Dennis said, "I can tell you the day The Beach Boys will no longer exist - never. We'll be on stage in wheelchairs."
I remember reading that for the first time...and chuckling.
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fdleone
Denny's Drums
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Post by fdleone on Dec 4, 2021 16:03:06 GMT
IMO Brian Wilson will decide if and when he wishes to discontinue touring or making records. I think he will go on working, writing, and recording, as long as he feels he can produce music he is proud of and fans want to hear. And I hope he does it for many more years.
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Post by lonelysummer on Dec 4, 2021 19:38:53 GMT
I remember seeing footage of Little Richards's final show back in 2013. It was obvious he was struggling, couldn't sing with the force he once had; he could still play the piano, but in a familiar scenario, the heavy lifting was being done by his backing band. At the time, I thought he should hang it up. As it turns out, the man himself made the decision himself. And yet, if I had been at that show, I would have considered it an honor just to see him. I think that's where a lot of people attending Brian's shows find themselves - just honored to sit at the feet of the guru. I don't see Brian's recent recordings meaning much one way or another. The only people who listen to them are us, the hardcores. It's not like Brian is out there doing a solo piano tour, or a set of Wilson/Paley songs. The recording, at this stage, is more like a hobby. So the focus is really on the live shows. The man sure looks miserable up there these days, yet everyone tells me this is the part of the business he loves - touring, playing the greatest hits (except Pet Sounds, lol). Well, it won't be our decision when he retires - it will be Brian's choice, or Melinda's choice, or some team of handlers. If attendance starts to go down, will that convince them it's time to quit? If the reviews become more critical (and some already are), will they say "this is doing more damage than good?" Of course, the same could be asked of Mike and Bruce. Bruce has got the easiest job in the world - show up, sing some harmonies, clap his hands, adjust the mic stand, and sing lead on a couple songs. But he has to travel just like all the others. My dad died this year at age 87, and his last 10 years, they weren't taking any long journeys anywhere. And they certainly weren't traveling by bus or plane or however it is that the Beach Boys get around, get around, they get around. Mike appears to be in great shape for a man of 80, but I would think at some point it won't be enjoyable for him, either. And with the various mutations of Covid going on and on, I have to wonder where we are headed as a world. Have we entered an age when large public gatherings are no longer wise?
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