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Post by beachboystalkmatt on Jul 22, 2021 21:23:09 GMT
So excited to announce that world-renowned poet, songwriter, and artist, Stephen Kalinich, will be joining us LIVE on our show this Tuesday night! Alongside The Beach Boys, Stephen co-wrote songs like "Little Bird", "Be Still", and "All I Want to Do" -
Come join us as we speak with this incredible talent. Tuesday, 8pm EST! Hope to see you there!
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jul 23, 2021 11:55:28 GMT
Looks like another good one! I'll try to tune in.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jul 28, 2021 12:48:41 GMT
Great show guys! Stephen, like most of your guests, is quite the storyteller.
I also enjoyed your discussion on some of the choices that The Beach Boys made which might've led to their commercial/artistic decline in the late 1960's. While I agree with most of what was mentioned, I also think Brian's choice to NOT use The Wrecking Crew as extensively as he did in the mid-1960's led to less dynamic and less creative recordings. There is something to be said for the simpler, laid back, "homey" songs, but I can't help but feel what was also...missing, and that was Brian's mind-blowing PRODUCTIONS.
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Post by beachboystalkmatt on Jul 28, 2021 15:19:51 GMT
Great show guys! Stephen, like most of your guests, is quite the storyteller.
I also enjoyed your discussion on some of the choices that The Beach Boys made which might've led to their commercial/artistic decline in the late 1960's. While I agree with most of what was mentioned, I also think Brian's choice to NOT use The Wrecking Crew as extensively as he did in the mid-1960's led to less dynamic and less creative recordings. There is something to be said for the simpler, laid back, "homey" songs, but I can't help but feel what was also...missing, and that was Brian's mind-blowing PRODUCTIONS.
Interesting!! First, Stephen was really interesting with some great BB stories. I find your thoughts on not using the Wrecking Crew to be intriguing. There is no doubt that Brian created some of the greatest productions ever with the Wrecking Crew. However, I do think this hurt the touring unit. The songs became much more difficult to produce live, which led to the question on the show last night, should the BB's have stopped touring at a certain point?
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2021 15:20:45 GMT
Didn't catch it yet, but was planning to check it out on YouTube sometime today. While I've never actually liked Kalinich's lyrics much, he's certainly a great resource for info, having worked with so many of the guys in some very interesting years. Looking forward to hearing what he has to say.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2021 15:24:12 GMT
Great show guys! Stephen, like most of your guests, is quite the storyteller.
I also enjoyed your discussion on some of the choices that The Beach Boys made which might've led to their commercial/artistic decline in the late 1960's. While I agree with most of what was mentioned, I also think Brian's choice to NOT use The Wrecking Crew as extensively as he did in the mid-1960's led to less dynamic and less creative recordings. There is something to be said for the simpler, laid back, "homey" songs, but I can't help but feel what was also...missing, and that was Brian's mind-blowing PRODUCTIONS.
Interesting!! First, Stephen was really interesting with some great BB stories. I find your thoughts on not using the Wrecking Crew to be intriguing. There is no doubt that Brian created some of the greatest productions ever with the Wrecking Crew. However, I do think this hurt the touring unit. The songs became much more difficult to produce live, which led to the question on the show last night, should the BB's have stopped touring at a certain point? I think it's worth noting, too, that whether Brian's '60s productions were great, his mental state was not as such that allowed him to make those gigantic productions for the most part. He just wasn't dependable enough. It takes real focus and organization to write, arrange, and produce groups of a dozen people. He wasn't consistently up to the task in the late 60s and early 70s. No judgment, just fact. So yeah, it would've been nice if he were, but...
As for quitting touring, that's an interesting question. But I'd say: no way! Their albums generally tanked, and after that little blip of late 60s to early 70, it was touring that paid the bills. Would we have had better music than Sunflower or Surf's Up if the group hadn't been touring? I highly doubt there was that much room for studio improvement, and meanwhile they began picking up steam on the road again in that era, as Rieley came in. I look forward to hearing how the question was addressed on the show!
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Post by kds on Jul 28, 2021 15:37:54 GMT
I don't think that The Beach Boys should have ever stopped touring. Touring pretty much kept them relevant, especially as the album and single sales began to falter.
I do think they could've pulled back on touring a bit, especially as they got into the 1990s, and the post 1998 / Mike & Bruce version of the band, as well as Brian's band that tours pretty much every year.
Looking at some of their peers, McCartney, the Stones, Roger Waters, & The Who don't tour every single year, so when they do, it's more of an "event."
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Post by beachboystalkmatt on Jul 28, 2021 16:02:33 GMT
Didn't catch it yet, but was planning to check it out on YouTube sometime today. While I've never actually liked Kalinich's lyrics much, he's certainly a great resource for info, having worked with so many of the guys in some very interesting years. Looking forward to hearing what he has to say. He had a lot of interesting stories about Dennis and Brian, and their song writing process. It was a lot of fun speaking with him!
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Post by beachboystalkmatt on Jul 28, 2021 16:03:23 GMT
I don't think that The Beach Boys should have ever stopped touring. Touring pretty much kept them relevant, especially as the album and single sales began to falter. I do think they could've pulled back on touring a bit, especially as they got into the 1990s, and the post 1998 / Mike & Bruce version of the band, as well as Brian's band that tours pretty much every year. Looking at some of their peers, McCartney, the Stones, Roger Waters, & The Who don't tour every single year, so when they do, it's more of an "event." Great point! Touring less might have been more epic when they did. Who knows if they would have put out better albums. This is all hypothetical of course!
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Post by kds on Jul 28, 2021 16:14:45 GMT
I don't think that The Beach Boys should have ever stopped touring. Touring pretty much kept them relevant, especially as the album and single sales began to falter. I do think they could've pulled back on touring a bit, especially as they got into the 1990s, and the post 1998 / Mike & Bruce version of the band, as well as Brian's band that tours pretty much every year. Looking at some of their peers, McCartney, the Stones, Roger Waters, & The Who don't tour every single year, so when they do, it's more of an "event." Great point! Touring less might have been more epic when they did. Who knows if they would have put out better albums. This is all hypothetical of course! I don't really think the touring schedule would've affected the quality of the albums too much to be honest. Maybe, by the 1980s, had they toured less, they might've been able to hone their craft in the studio, but I think by then, neither primary bandmember was really firing on all cylinders from a songwriting standpoint.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2021 16:16:34 GMT
beachboystalkmatt , I just listened to "the Many Moods of Matt" segment on the hypothetical about quitting touring and becoming a studio band. It's fun to speculate: I love these kinds of conversations.
In short, I'm not convinced it would have helped anything. I like the idea of it, just because I personally care more about good albums than live concerts. Always did, even in my peak show-going decade of my 20s (which was admittedly several decades after the period of history we're discussing!).
But what's the evidence that they would have made any better studio music together than what they already did? I think the disconnect between a self-contained live act leaning toward hits and oldies and a somewhat progressive studio act? (I actually think "progressive" is only partly true, and not necessarily a compliment, either. Wild Honey wasn't progressive at all, but it was cool as hell, and what's more was done by the same band that played live for the most part.)
However, the heart of the disconnect was (in my opinion) the diverse tastes and directions of the band members. They liked and wrote different music. They had different ideas. They had (wildly) different lifestyles. I'm not sure that getting them all under one roof in the studio together earlier would have resulted in even much difference, much less much better music. What would make us think that Carl's, Dennis's, or Al's songwriting would have progressed much more had they not been on the road?
It seems to me they were only just trying to write songs beginning right around the time you suggested they should have pulled off the road. It's post-Smile, basically. So regardless of whether they were occasionally going out on the road, they were still newish to songwriting and production, but they were working on songwriting and production anyway at that time. Is it so obvious that, say, Carl would have had a "Long Promised Road" in 1968 instead of 1971? Or was that more just a factor of where he was mentally at the time, of working with Jack Rieley (which wasn't an option in 1968), etc.?
I think it's more likely their differences would have become all the more obvious. Remember, they were basically working separately in the studio by Carl & the Passions! This wasn't a progressive band finding their way together, it was a collection of bandlets, more or less. I think that would have just happened sooner. Mike and Bruce (and Al); Carl and Dennis (and Brian and Al); and so on.
Maybe we'd simply have had the formation of the hypothetical band The Beach, a studio-based, Wilson-based band. But Mike? Mike didn't want to be in a studio band! (Some would argue that's good.) Al? Not sure which direction he'd have preferred, as he was one way on lifestyle and maybe a little more in-between musically.
EDIT - I'd also just say I disagreed with the premise to some degree. I think both your and Greg's view was that basically the band was becoming more progressive and after suffering through subpar music (Surf's Up), it was really at Holland that they were just finding their new footing. I think you'll find fans who pick albums almost all along that timeline from Smiley through Holland as the best of those years: there isn't really a lot of consensus, except maybe Sunflower as the best of those (which I personally don't agree with, but many do).
And another thing that I was reminded: it has been somewhat debunked that after Endless Summer the group resorted to being an oldies act live. I forget who went through it all, but they kept playing roughly the same numbers of new songs for years yet through the '70s.
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Post by beachboystalkmatt on Jul 28, 2021 16:27:31 GMT
Thanks Kapitan! Greg and I were speculating that they were just blooming as songs writers during the Surf's Up era which was a little late, because of their reliance on Brian. I don't know if the same music would have been created, but it seems like they might have been in a better position once Brian stepped back.
I agree that there were many song writers with different ideas, which is why I think those early 70's albums lack cohesion, which is important I think to a good album. This is all speculation of course. The Beach Boys had a resurgence in popularity because of their touring. Though they might not have been as popular if they stopped or slowed down touring, I just wonder what the albums could have been.
And I love Wild honey! I actually think the Back to basics approach was progressive in its own way, especially after all the grand productions Brian and the boys had put out on previous albums.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2021 16:45:35 GMT
And I love Wild honey! I actually think the Back to basics approach was progressive in its own way, especially after all the grand productions Brian and the boys had put out on previous albums. It was an interesting change, and not one limited to the Beach Boys, either. I think it was around the era of the twofers when it was pointed out that the Beatles, Dylan, and others backed off somewhat from bigger productions around '67-'68 as well.
But is that being progressive, or just changing (being part of a trend)? (Is there a difference between the two?) Does it matter whether it was an artistically driven choice versus an exhaustion-and-desperation driven necessity? Just more speculative questions, not interrogating you or anything.
Anyway, to the main question, I think Adam M's second (?) comment in the chat nailed it most accurately: touring pays the bills more than albums do, and the Beach Boys had some serious cash problems in the late 60s and early 70s.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 28, 2021 16:49:59 GMT
Oh, the "Carl suggested cellos on Good Vibrations" is just one of two origin stories for those. Van Dyke Parks has also taken (and I believe separately by Brian, been given) credit. Sorry if somebody else actually answers that, I'm just commenting in real time as I keep watching. Frankly, I don't exactly trust either Brian or VDP for accuracy, for different reasons.
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Post by beachboystalkmatt on Jul 28, 2021 16:59:27 GMT
Oh, the "Carl suggested cellos on Good Vibrations" is just one of two origin stories for those. Van Dyke Parks has also taken (and I believe separately by Brian, been given) credit. Sorry if somebody else actually answers that, I'm just commenting in real time as I keep watching. Frankly, I don't exactly trust either Brian or VDP for accuracy, for different reasons. Yes I have heard a few stories as well. I think the latest I heard was the story Brian told about Carl giving him the idea. Who knows!!
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