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Post by Kapitan on Feb 19, 2021 13:55:40 GMT
Since the end of the 2012 reunion, with very, very few exceptions, Brian, Al, and especially Mike have had nothing, um, positive to say about each other. It's been one swipe against each other after another. Now, almost overnight, everything is beautiful. That's always the case. It was the case with the 2012 reunion, for example. Or before the Stars & Stripes "reunion."
Obviously, anyone except the most sweet-hearted, naive dupe knows they don't get along very well--especially when it comes to the actual thing that links them together, the band. We don't believe them. Everything is clearly not beautiful.
But it is a sign of an effort to put on a happy face for the benefit of an upcoming business venture. And that's progress, in that it means there may be an upcoming business venture.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 19, 2021 14:02:32 GMT
Since the end of the 2012 reunion, with very, very few exceptions, Brian, Al, and especially Mike have had nothing, um, positive to say about each other. It's been one swipe against each other after another. Now, almost overnight, everything is beautiful. That's always the case. It was the case with the 2012 reunion, for example. Or before the Stars & Stripes "reunion."
Obviously, anyone except the most sweet-hearted, naive dupe knows they don't get along very well--especially when it comes to the actual thing that links them together, the band. We don't believe them. Everything is clearly not beautiful.
But it is a sign of an effort to put on a happy face for the benefit of an upcoming business venture. And that's progress, in that it means there may be an upcoming business venture. Oh, absolutely. The one thing these quotes show - clearer than anything else - is that The Beach Boys will do and say ANYTHING if it means cashing in on something. That's probably the most consistent thing the guys have done in their careers - and that includes Dennis and Carl.
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Post by kds on Feb 19, 2021 14:07:06 GMT
Since the end of the 2012 reunion, with very, very few exceptions, Brian, Al, and especially Mike have had nothing, um, positive to say about each other. It's been one swipe against each other after another. Now, almost overnight, everything is beautiful. That's always the case. It was the case with the 2012 reunion, for example. Or before the Stars & Stripes "reunion."
Obviously, anyone except the most sweet-hearted, naive dupe knows they don't get along very well--especially when it comes to the actual thing that links them together, the band. We don't believe them. Everything is clearly not beautiful.
But it is a sign of an effort to put on a happy face for the benefit of an upcoming business venture. And that's progress, in that it means there may be an upcoming business venture. Also, as other legacy acts who don't really get along personally have proven, it's very possible to coexist on stage or on tour just fine. Maybe with the right management in place, they can get Mike Jacqueline Love and Brian Melinda Wilson to put it all together.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 19, 2021 14:14:23 GMT
Absolutely. In fact, that "and that includes Dennis and Carl" reminds me of something I was going to say yesterday. The Rolling Stone article opens with Jonah and Justyn Wilson implying that it was their father Carl's death that turned things negative:
"It wasn’t easy [joining the band members as voting members]. “The dynamic changed a lot after our father passed,” says Jonah, who was in his late twenties at the time. “Not to say it was all negative, but we had a lot of challenges.” Adds Justyn, “In the beginning, it was just trying to navigate a very complicated group of individuals.” These days, Carl’s sons are more optimistic."
You could argue, though, that the band's management/image has been better in the 20-some years after Carl's death than in the decade or more before it. While Carl was alive, you had Brian, Dennis, and Carl in and out of the band. You had a group that was artistically confused, pandering, desperate, and awful on record. You had a group that was at times embarrassing live on stage. You had a sink into cheesiness, corniness. Their reputation, their legacy, was probably at its worst. Archival releases were few and far between.
After Carl died, yes, it meant that Al and Brian were OUT (with a few exceptions). But it also saw the Beach Boys traveling band up its game tremendously. We saw more and better archival releases that, along with Brian's (plus Al at times) solo reputation, helped to reestablish the group as a legendary act that was more than Sunkist ads, cheerleaders, and kids' sitcom guests.
Maybe Justyn and Jonah feel it was getting unworkable when they took the reins on behalf of their dad, but that's just because they weren't a part of what came before. (You don't know what you don't know.)
Regardless of all that, though, I'm pleased at the band's apparent optimism and hope for many high quality projects and as few embarrassing missteps as possible.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 19, 2021 14:19:32 GMT
Also, as other legacy acts who don't really get along personally have proven, it's very possible to coexist on stage or on tour just fine. Maybe with the right management in place, they can get Mike Jacqueline Love and Brian Melinda Wilson to put it all together. Yes. These are grown men, and wealthy men. They don't have to cram all five guys into a station wagon and drive from Los Angeles to Reno to Denver to Kansas City. They don't really have to socialize at all. It's not hard to show up for work, work, and go home.
We know there are philosophical differences in what a tour should look like--Mike with his lean-as-possible operation and Brian with more creature comforts--but hopefully that can be smoothed over by the new management/ownership.
And really it's not as if any reunion that might occur is going to be 100, 150, 200 shows. It's more likely to be limited runs in good theaters with great sound, or a limited Vegas (or other) residency, bolstered by some festival type things, as possible. It's more likely documentaries, concert film, archival products, etc. However healthy Mike is at 79, he's 79. And Brian isn't far behind (and however many walks he claims to take, he's not exactly a sprightly young man).
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Post by kds on Feb 19, 2021 14:32:15 GMT
Also, as other legacy acts who don't really get along personally have proven, it's very possible to coexist on stage or on tour just fine. Maybe with the right management in place, they can get Mike Jacqueline Love and Brian Melinda Wilson to put it all together. Yes. These are grown men, and wealthy men. They don't have to cram all five guys into a station wagon and drive from Los Angeles to Reno to Denver to Kansas City. They don't really have to socialize at all. It's not hard to show up for work, work, and go home.
We know there are philosophical differences in what a tour should look like--Mike with his lean-as-possible operation and Brian with more creature comforts--but hopefully that can be smoothed over by the new management/ownership.
And really it's not as if any reunion that might occur is going to be 100, 150, 200 shows. It's more likely to be limited runs in good theaters with great sound, or a limited Vegas (or other) residency, bolstered by some festival type things, as possible. It's more likely documentaries, concert film, archival products, etc. However healthy Mike is at 79, he's 79. And Brian isn't far behind (and however many walks he claims to take, he's not exactly a sprightly young man).
I wouldn't even expect anything as extensive as 2012. I wonder if the pieces are being put in place for a Farewell. Maybe a final victory lap of shows with all surviving members, along with a career capping doc and book.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 19, 2021 14:38:28 GMT
And therein lies the challenge: it's hard to market a true farewell when you know that at least 40% of the people involved want to keep doing what they're doing.
We KNOW Mike wants to keep playing, and it seems Bruce wants to keep going with him. I THINK Al would like to keep going, too. Brian ... who knows? But even if he wants to keep touring, it seems he's also the weakest link: he's the frailest, the least dependable performer, the "oldest" (despite not being actually oldest).
So, how do you market a farewell when it's probably not a farewell? Especially when you've already done your farewell, for all intents and purposes, 10 years prior? I guess little things like "honesty" and "logic" go out the window in pop music farewells, a la Ozzy, Cher, KISS, and the like.
But I do think some kind of career-capstone would be the best approach. A series of performances, a GOOD, EXTENSIVE documentary (series?), new archival product, all under the banner of "last chance to see the Beach Boys." And in fact I'd arrange it so that this would indeed by the end of the touring Beach Boys. I'd arrange it so Mike's tours going forward have to be what Brian's have been, which is to say, solo tours. Make this, the 60th, be the end of the Beach Boys in an official sense.
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Post by kds on Feb 19, 2021 14:58:54 GMT
And therein lies the challenge: it's hard to market a true farewell when you know that at least 40% of the people involved want to keep doing what they're doing.
We KNOW Mike wants to keep playing, and it seems Bruce wants to keep going with him. I THINK Al would like to keep going, too. Brian ... who knows? But even if he wants to keep touring, it seems he's also the weakest link: he's the frailest, the least dependable performer, the "oldest" (despite not being actually oldest).
So, how do you market a farewell when it's probably not a farewell? Especially when you've already done your farewell, for all intents and purposes, 10 years prior? I guess little things like "honesty" and "logic" go out the window in pop music farewells, a la Ozzy, Cher, KISS, and the like.
But I do think some kind of career-capstone would be the best approach. A series of performances, a GOOD, EXTENSIVE documentary (series?), new archival product, all under the banner of "last chance to see the Beach Boys." And in fact I'd arrange it so that this would indeed by the end of the touring Beach Boys. I'd arrange it so Mike's tours going forward have to be what Brian's have been, which is to say, solo tours. Make this, the 60th, be the end of the Beach Boys in an official sense.
I agree, and I'd suggested this previously on another older MB. But, I think what they should do is agree to retire the name "The Beach Boys." So, if Mike continues, it would be "Mike Love's Beach Boys" or "The Beach Boys featuring Mike Love" or something of that nature. Especially considering Mike continues to say that he can see The Beach Boys continuing without him. Say what you want about seeing Mike and Bruce as "The Beach Boys," but at least you're getting the primary lead singer of most of their hits, along with a very longtime member. I couldn't imagine paying to see Scott Totten, Christian Love, and John Coswill as "The Beach Boys."
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 19, 2021 15:05:13 GMT
That's where we might part company. I could imagine being very excited for (and willing to pay for) an officially sanctioned Beach Boys touring band with zero traditional members. If the brand put a serious emphasis on real quality--the kind of quality Brian's bands have had, or the Beach Boys have had since Totten was bandleader--I think it would be tremendous. (Just objectively in terms of quality, arguably better than the Beach Boys themselves ever were. I mean in terms of being a musically gifted, spot-on performing group of singers and instrumentalists. I recognize how unpopular that particular part of the sentiment is.)
A group of, say, John Cowsill, Darian Sahanaja, Scott Totten, Probyn Gregory, Brian Eichenberger and/or Matt Jardine, Paul Mertens, and Christian Love? (Or swapping in and out other similarly qualified people, be they ones we know now or who emerge in the future.) To me, that's well worth paying for and deserving of the brand name.
Just as you can still go and see the Count Basie Orchestra or the Charles Mingus Big Band despite their principals being long gone, I wouldn't object to that with the Beach Boys. But it is a slippery slope if quality isn't maintained. (Of course, quality hasn't always been maintained for the actual Beach Boys, either...)
All that said, I would not approve of such an act doing new studio work under the brand name ... even though I admit I'd be curious what they'd come up with!
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 19, 2021 15:07:29 GMT
And therein lies the challenge: it's hard to market a true farewell when you know that at least 40% of the people involved want to keep doing what they're doing.
We KNOW Mike wants to keep playing, and it seems Bruce wants to keep going with him. I THINK Al would like to keep going, too. Brian ... who knows? But even if he wants to keep touring, it seems he's also the weakest link: he's the frailest, the least dependable performer, the "oldest" (despite not being actually oldest).
So, how do you market a farewell when it's probably not a farewell? Especially when you've already done your farewell, for all intents and purposes, 10 years prior? I guess little things like "honesty" and "logic" go out the window in pop music farewells, a la Ozzy, Cher, KISS, and the like.
But I do think some kind of career-capstone would be the best approach. A series of performances, a GOOD, EXTENSIVE documentary (series?), new archival product, all under the banner of "last chance to see the Beach Boys." And in fact I'd arrange it so that this would indeed by the end of the touring Beach Boys. I'd arrange it so Mike's tours going forward have to be what Brian's have been, which is to say, solo tours. Make this, the 60th, be the end of the Beach Boys in an official sense.
I agree, and I'd suggested this previously on another older MB. But, I think what they should do is agree to retire the name "The Beach Boys." So, if Mike continues, it would be "Mike Love's Beach Boys" or "The Beach Boys featuring Mike Love" or something of that nature. Especially considering Mike continues to say that he can see The Beach Boys continuing without him. Say what you want about seeing Mike and Bruce as "The Beach Boys," but at least you're getting the primary lead singer of most of their hits, along with a very longtime member. I couldn't imagine paying to see Scott Totten, Christian Love, and John Coswill as "The Beach Boys." That will NEVER happen as long as Mike Love is touring, for one simple reason - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. And, it wouldn't be only Mike who would object to a name change. Don't let the other BRI members fool you. They will vote for whatever will bring in the most money. As far as the brand, purism (is that a word?), legacy, whatever. As long as they/Mike can tour as The Beach Boys, it will be The Beach Boys.
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Post by kds on Feb 19, 2021 15:14:39 GMT
I agree, and I'd suggested this previously on another older MB. But, I think what they should do is agree to retire the name "The Beach Boys." So, if Mike continues, it would be "Mike Love's Beach Boys" or "The Beach Boys featuring Mike Love" or something of that nature. Especially considering Mike continues to say that he can see The Beach Boys continuing without him. Say what you want about seeing Mike and Bruce as "The Beach Boys," but at least you're getting the primary lead singer of most of their hits, along with a very longtime member. I couldn't imagine paying to see Scott Totten, Christian Love, and John Coswill as "The Beach Boys." That will NEVER happen as long as Mike Love is touring, for one simple reason - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. And, it wouldn't be only Mike who would object to a name change. Don't let the other BRI members fool you. They will vote for whatever will bring in the most money. As far as the brand, purism (is that a word?), legacy, whatever. As long as they/Mike can tour as The Beach Boys, it will be The Beach Boys. I'll respectfully disagree as I think, considering the size of venue's Mike typically plays, putting "Mike Love's" or "Featured Mike Love" on the tickets stubs next to "The Beach Boys" will not deter people from going. If "Queen + Adam Lambert" can fill arenas, I think "Mike Love's Beach Boys" can still fill small theatres and smaller sheds.
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Post by kds on Feb 19, 2021 15:16:46 GMT
That's where we might part company. I could imagine being very excited for (and willing to pay for) an officially sanctioned Beach Boys touring band with zero traditional members. If the brand put a serious emphasis on real quality--the kind of quality Brian's bands have had, or the Beach Boys have had since Totten was bandleader--I think it would be tremendous. (Just objectively in terms of quality, arguably better than the Beach Boys themselves ever were. I mean in terms of being a musically gifted, spot-on performing group of singers and instrumentalists. I recognize how unpopular that particular part of the sentiment is.)
A group of, say, John Cowsill, Darian Sahanaja, Scott Totten, Probyn Gregory, Brian Eichenberger and/or Matt Jardine, Paul Mertens, and Christian Love? (Or swapping in and out other similarly qualified people, be they ones we know now or who emerge in the future.) To me, that's well worth paying for and deserving of the brand name.
Just as you can still go and see the Count Basie Orchestra or the Charles Mingus Big Band despite their principals being long gone, I wouldn't object to that with the Beach Boys. But it is a slippery slope if quality isn't maintained. (Of course, quality hasn't always been maintained for the actual Beach Boys, either...)
All that said, I would not approve of such an act doing new studio work under the brand name ... even though I admit I'd be curious what they'd come up with!
I think new music is a non factor as I'm pretty sure the current agreement pretty much forbids any new "Beach Boys" music without Brian Wilson. A post Beach Boys band is probably the kind of act I could see myself paying to see in the coming years should I really get the itch to see live music. As I've stated before, most of the artists I really love won't be touring for a hole hell of a lot longer.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 19, 2021 15:18:38 GMT
The financial side could be worked out somehow. Maybe all individual Beach Boys are on their own, revenue-wise; maybe they all pay in to BRI; maybe they can all use a [Name]'s Beach Boys construction; whatever.
To give a farewell project ANY heft, it has to have some kind of concrete farewell. I agree Mike would hate that, the others might, too (due to the revenue), and it might not happen for those reasons. But if Azoff is given the final say, Mike might just have to suck it up.
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Post by kds on Feb 19, 2021 15:22:08 GMT
The financial side could be worked out somehow. Maybe all individual Beach Boys are on their own, revenue-wise; maybe they all pay in to BRI; maybe they can all use a [Name]'s Beach Boys construction; whatever.
To give a farewell project ANY heft, it has to have some kind of concrete farewell. I agree Mike would hate that, the others might, too (due to the revenue), and it might not happen for those reasons. But if Azoff is given the final say, Mike might just have to suck it up.
Not to sound morbid, but considering the ages of the primary members, I feel any Beach Boys "farewell" might hold a little more water than KISS, Ozzy, or Crue.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 19, 2021 15:23:52 GMT
I agree entirely. But that's also why you'd HOPE they could hear Azoff's advice with fresh ears and put aside long-held opinions and squabbles. If the sale was about the band's legacy, let an informed, intelligent outside manage the band's legacy rather than insisting on doing things the way you've been doing them all along (in which case, why sell?)!
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