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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2020 13:04:26 GMT
This is easy for me as well. Despite too many non BB guests for my liking, I find NPP a far better listen. The vocals, arrangements, and songs are all better than BW88.
NPP just has so many more highs for me with Whatever Happened, Half Moon Bay, Sail Away, Saturday Night, This Beautiful Day, The Right Time, and Don't Worry that it overcomes the lows. Even On the Island has really grown on me. Speaking of lows, Night Time is almost as bad as Runaway Dancer, and I'm don't think Rio Grande is that great. At least Guess You Had to Be Here has the decency to shuffle off after three minutes.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2020 14:28:12 GMT
Not even close for me: NPP by a landslide. I wonder if I would have liked 88 more if I were a fan at the time and had been waiting for it. I can see where its ambitious scope would be both a relief and exciting after a few years off, then the totally dull (imo) BB85, then a few years off, then KTSA. Just like 10 years or so earlier, the idea that Brian was back must have added something to the debut. But as it is, I think it's a pretty average BW album song-wise, and a bad one production-wise.
NPP is pretty similar song-wise, with a few really good songs, a bunch of OK ones, a few stinkers. But its production is significantly better. I'd much rather listen to it than 88, even though Brian's singing has deteriorated significantly in those 25 or so years.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jun 28, 2020 15:24:55 GMT
I have to go with No Pier pressure, too. Easily.
BW1988 is uneven across the board - songwriting, vocals, and especially production. It was disappointing because Brian Wilson wasn't supposed to be mediocre in these areas, especially when he had so much time to assemble his first solo album. I hesitate to blame Landy, because in the studio, Brian was surrounded by some real pros.
No Pier Pressure...who woulda thunk it? It might just be Brian's best solo album. For me, Imagination and No Pier Pressure are easily Brian's most listenable solo albums. If it wasn't so cluttered with guests, some different and questionable music styles, and (I can't believe I'm saying this) an overly long trackist, No Pier Pressure would be considered a classic. That's right, you heard it here!
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2020 16:21:06 GMT
I think if you go from 16 to 12 songs, it would be Brian's best solo album. But, I know we are differ on what the winning 12 should be.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jun 28, 2020 16:50:20 GMT
I think if you go from 16 to 12 songs, it would be Brian's best solo album. But, I know we are differ on what the winning 12 should be. I don't know, kds, I'm pretty open, but there's no way i would've had a bonus track (like "Love And Mercy" and "In The Back Of My Mind") in sight. No Pier Pressure didn't deserve it/them. That was a slap in the face to the album.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2020 16:57:44 GMT
Apologies for veering a little off topic, but increasingly I am annoyed by the whole idea of including bonus tracks on regular album releases. It's one (very welcome!) thing for re-releases to include them: that's a major selling point for the re-releases.
But when a new album is released, that album ought to be the selling point. If there is something else saleable on the album, put it on the album. If not, don't. I know it's just a common practice to drive people toward this, that, and the other retailer, or to get fans to buy multiple copies. But it's a strange practice at best.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jun 28, 2020 17:07:09 GMT
Apologies for veering a little off topic, but increasingly I am annoyed by the whole idea of including bonus tracks on regular album releases. It's one (very welcome!) thing for re-releases to include them: that's a major selling point for the re-releases.
But when a new album is released, that album ought to be the selling point. If there is something else saleable on the album, put it on the album. If not, don't. I know it's just a common practice to drive people toward this, that, and the other retailer, or to get fans to buy multiple copies. But it's a strange practice at best.
I agree. THE ALBUM should always be the selling point - or not. And, especially with the great albums; they don't need bonus tracks.
I've never been a big fan of bonus tracks, and I'm not saying that with 20/20 hindsight. With those early Beach Boys' 2fers, yes, even back then, I wish Capitol Records would've just assembled all of the bonus tracks and released them together on a CD or two, Volumes I and II or whatever. Now, I'm not a stockholder in the record company either, so...
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2020 17:11:55 GMT
Yeah, I think it's wishful thinking (from a business standpoint) to hope for full albums of previously unreleased bonus tracks in most cases. Very few artists would have the quality of material to justify even one full album, much less multiple ones. The Beach Boys are the exception there, somehow having quite an amazing gift for leaving really good songs and recordings on the shelf every single time from the late '60s onward. (Granted, some of those did see official release on later albums.) It would be interesting to tally up the completed or mostly completed good songs, or interesting alternate versions/takes, of the Beach Boys. Obviously with the Smile music alone, you've got half an album's worth or more of good stuff.
But for most artists, I think the "tack on a song or two to each reissued album" is the more realistic way to do it.
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Post by B.E. on Jun 28, 2020 17:14:20 GMT
I think if you go from 16 to 12 songs, it would be Brian's best solo album. But, I know we are differ on what the winning 12 should be. I don't know, kds, I'm pretty open, but there's no way i would've had a bonus track (like "Love And Mercy" and "In The Back Of My Mind") in sight. No Pier Pressure didn't deserve it/them. That was a slap in the face to the album. Those bonus tracks weren't among the 16 deluxe edition tracks of NPP. They were tracks 17 and 18 of the Target exclusive.
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Post by B.E. on Jun 28, 2020 17:15:09 GMT
Someone's gotta do it...it's BW88, easily!
You guys can say the vocals, songwriting, arrangements, and production are better on NPP, but that's not what I'm hearing. Especially in regard to the vocals and songwriting, but even with the arrangements and production - I'm not sold. Both albums have their pros and cons in those areas. For me, the only "lesser" songs on BW88 are "Little Children" and "Night Time", and I hesitate to even include "Little Children" in this category because I enjoy it just fine. I'll take those two over the NPP trio of "Runaway Dancer", "Half Moon Bay", and "Our Special Love". NPP also has more "like, not love" tracks weighing down the album a bit. Most of those feature guest vocalists. For a head-to-head comparison: give me "There's So Many", "Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight", and "Baby Let Your Hair Grow Long" over "Saturday Night", "Guess You Had To Be There", and, say, "Don't Worry". As for the highs? Again, BW88 wins. I think "Love and Mercy" and "Melt Away" are 10s. "Tell Me Why" and "One Kind Of Love" are close, very close, but not quite. Add "Walkin' The Line", "Rio Grande", and "Let It Shine" to my BW88 top 5 and "Whatever Happened", "Sail Away", and "This Beautiful Day" to my NPP top 5 and I gotta give the edge to BW88. There's a relative youthfulness and exuberance, and even adventurism, from Brian on BW88, that is just too important for me to ignore. The later BW solo albums are (understandably) far more "easy listening". Nothing wrong with that, but hardly my first choice when it comes to daily listening.
To put things in perspective, though, I'd typically rate BW88 an 8/10 and NPP a 7/10. While I'm confident in my preference, and thus it's an easy choice, in the grand scheme of things I don't think there's THAT much of difference between them quality or enjoyment-wise.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2020 17:32:01 GMT
I don't agree with you, B.E., but I will say this: had BW done his solo album with the same music and basic arrangements, but transferred to the more natural sounds of his great band (and with synth parts doled out instead to musicians performing on organic instruments), and with background vocals incorporating his great band, I think I'd hold the album in much higher regard.
But for me, that supremely dated production makes it just about unlistenable. I realize when other people say that about, say, "brickwalled" mixes of albums in the digital era, I usually just shrug and pity them for their loss. That might be the case: I might be pitiable for my own inability to enjoy it. But there it is.
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Post by kds on Jun 28, 2020 17:34:18 GMT
I think if you go from 16 to 12 songs, it would be Brian's best solo album. But, I know we are differ on what the winning 12 should be. I don't know, kds, I'm pretty open, but there's no way i would've had a bonus track (like "Love And Mercy" and "In The Back Of My Mind") in sight. No Pier Pressure didn't deserve it/them. That was a slap in the face to the album. In terms of the album, the inclusion of those two tracks on the Target Deluxe edition doesn't really bother me as I view them as just two tack ons after the 16 track expanded edition of NPP. I don't even think I've played either since the very first time I played the album back in 2015. NPP is also one of the odder instances for expanded / deluxe versions of albums in that the three extra tracks are inserted in the middle of the album. So, that really creates two distinctly different versions of the album.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 28, 2020 17:44:28 GMT
NPP is also one of the odder instances for expanded / deluxe versions of albums in that the three extra tracks are inserted in the middle of the album. So, that really creates two distinctly different versions of the album. YES.
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Post by B.E. on Jun 28, 2020 17:46:31 GMT
I don't agree with you, B.E., but I will say this: had BW done his solo album with the same music and basic arrangements, but transferred to the more natural sounds of his great band (and with synth parts doled out instead to musicians performing on organic instruments), and with background vocals incorporating his great band, I think I'd hold the album in much higher regard.
But for me, that supremely dated production makes it just about unlistenable. I realize when other people say that about, say, "brickwalled" mixes of albums in the digital era, I usually just shrug and pity them for their loss. That might be the case: I might be pitiable for my own inability to enjoy it. But there it is.
Oh, there's much room for improvement in the production department. I'd definitely file that under 'con' for the album. It is dated. And, I suspect that, generally, I have much less patience for dated '80s production than most of you who listened to it growing up do, but for some reason (of which I can't explain) the production of BW88 just doesn't bother me as much as other contemporary releases by major artists. Whatever it got right, or other releases got even more wrong, whatever it is, it just doesn't ruin the album for me in the same way that it does other fans.
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Post by B.E. on Jun 28, 2020 18:05:07 GMT
In terms of the album, the inclusion of those two tracks on the Target Deluxe edition doesn't really bother me as I view them as just two tack ons after the 16 track expanded edition of NPP. I don't even think I've played either since the very first time I played the album back in 2015. Sometimes how we listen to music can really affect these types of things. For instance, I maintain an iTunes library of all my CDs and digital downloads. And, when I import an album, like NPP, I separate the bonus tracks from the album. So, when listening on my computer or with my iPod, the bonus tracks don't play at the end of the album. NPP is also one of the odder instances for expanded / deluxe versions of albums in that the three extra tracks are inserted in the middle of the album. So, that really creates two distinctly different versions of the album. I might be contradicting myself (always a possibility!), but I kind of like that. It's not like there's 8 different versions. You could definitely go overboard, but two versions? A condensed 40 minute version versus an expanded 50+ minute album? I think that serves a useful purpose. Especially in this case, in that you get more Brian lead vocals if that's your main priority, and you're not forced to buy the remake of "Summer Means New Love" if you despise such a thing. As you stated earlier, no one will ever agree on what the final 12-13 songs should be.
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