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Post by mikeiw8jsj28 on Oct 2, 2022 3:49:47 GMT
I have been listening to the Beach Boys for years, and something that has really caught my eye is what appears to be influence of Carl Wilson and David Marks on the boys first 3 LPs, but especially Surfin USA, their debut (Surfin Safari) clearly shows Brian at the helm, this is easy to hear based on the production and overall tone of the tracks (Little Miss America, Ten Little Indians, Cuckoo Clock) but there is certianly something seemingly gritier and more edgy on some of the tracks off their debut, but especially on their 2nd lp (Surfin USA) it seems this creative difference is very apparent, with gritty, surf rock, proto punk tracks like Misirlou, Stoked, and Surf Jam, which seem VERY out of Brian's influence and overall direction, contrasted with very Brian-Wilsonian tracks like Lonely Sea and Farmer's Daughter. I mean Beach Boys instrumentals like the afformentioned no doibt highlight the two guitarists, it also makes sense that they would be into surf rock as they were both influenced by classic Rock and Roll (Carl stating this fact in a 1980s interview) Also, has anyone else noticed as David drifted further away from the band their surf rock seemed to disappear as well? To me this all begs the question: is it possible that Carl Wilson and David Marks had more influence then previously thought on the Beach Boys early records?
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 2, 2022 11:59:32 GMT
That's a good observation/question, mikeiw8jsj28. (May we call you Mike or anything else? Welcome to the board, btw, and feel free to introduce yourself if you'd like in the section for that near the bottom of the board home page.)
There is no question those early albums have a different style and sound. And that was a sound that apparently was more familiar to, and a hit with, Carl and David--and Dennis. In that way, I'd say they influenced it pretty heavily. They seem to have been either musically (Carl and David) and/or culturally (Dennis) truly into it, whereas I'd say Mike and Brian--while still the songwriters and real band leaders--and Al (when he was there) were more just doing it because it seemed to be working.
Like if you asked Carl, David and Dennis what kind of album they'd like to have made at that time if they had 100% total freedom, I think there's a good chance it would have been the kind of albums they made. If you asked Brian, Mike, or Al, I think they'd say the things we know they loved: Phil Spector or Four Freshmen sounding records; or R&B records; or folk records.
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Post by lonelysummer on Oct 3, 2022 0:46:12 GMT
Welcome to the board, Mike. I think the influence of anyone not named Brian Wilson has always been overlooked in the history of the Beach Boys. It's been noted before that Brian's music tended to be soft and sweet; but he had an absolute animal on the drums in Dennis Wilson. Dennis put the ROCK in a lot of those songs. And you had two guitarists who idolized Dick Dale, Chuck Berry, and (I'm guessing) probably Bo Diddley, Scotty Moore...these guys wanted to rock! Mike brought in the r&b vocal influences; that was a big part of the early Beach Boys sound. It wasn't all Brian Wilson, at least not back in 62/63.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 4, 2022 13:08:51 GMT
Welcome to the board, Mike. I think the influence of anyone not named Brian Wilson has always been overlooked in the history of the Beach Boys. It's been noted before that Brian's music tended to be soft and sweet; but he had an absolute animal on the drums in Dennis Wilson. Dennis put the ROCK in a lot of those songs. And you had two guitarists who idolized Dick Dale, Chuck Berry, and (I'm guessing) probably Bo Diddley, Scotty Moore...these guys wanted to rock! Mike brought in the r&b vocal influences; that was a big part of the early Beach Boys sound. It wasn't all Brian Wilson, at least not back in 62/63. It would have been interesting had the Beach Boys proceeded without Brian Wilson from the beginning. Obviously, that means the quality of the original songs would have been worse, because it's hard to argue--especially early on--that anyone was as good a writer as he was. But the general direction and vibe of the band would have almost definitely been a more rock and roll and R&B direction. More guitar centric (even though it was quite guitar centric anyway in those first years). Probably more covers, especially in the early years.
By no means do I think it would have been a better band. I just think it would have been interesting to watch. Presumably Mike would have had to write with Carl and David.
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Post by lonelysummer on Oct 5, 2022 2:19:29 GMT
I don't have any desire to remove Brian from Beach Boys history. I just wish the other guys got more credit for their contributions. There is a lot of recognition these days for Dennis as a songwriter, but very little for him as a drummer. Everybody knows Carl had a beautiful voice, but do they know what a great guitar team he and David were?
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 5, 2022 11:08:52 GMT
I don't have any desire to remove Brian from Beach Boys history. I just wish the other guys got more credit for their contributions. There is a lot of recognition these days for Dennis as a songwriter, but very little for him as a drummer. Everybody knows Carl had a beautiful voice, but do they know what a great guitar team he and David were? Oh, I don't either! It would be insane: he was by far the most gifted composer, arranger, producer, not to mention an amazing singer. I just meant it as a thought experiment because I do think the band would have been a very different band.
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Post by kds on Oct 5, 2022 14:29:01 GMT
Welcome to the board, Mike. I think the influence of anyone not named Brian Wilson has always been overlooked in the history of the Beach Boys. It's been noted before that Brian's music tended to be soft and sweet; but he had an absolute animal on the drums in Dennis Wilson. Dennis put the ROCK in a lot of those songs. And you had two guitarists who idolized Dick Dale, Chuck Berry, and (I'm guessing) probably Bo Diddley, Scotty Moore...these guys wanted to rock! Mike brought in the r&b vocal influences; that was a big part of the early Beach Boys sound. It wasn't all Brian Wilson, at least not back in 62/63. It would have been interesting had the Beach Boys proceeded without Brian Wilson from the beginning. Obviously, that means the quality of the original songs would have been worse, because it's hard to argue--especially early on--that anyone was as good a writer as he was. But the general direction and vibe of the band would have almost definitely been a more rock and roll and R&B direction. More guitar centric (even though it was quite guitar centric anyway in those first years). Probably more covers, especially in the early years.
By no means do I think it would have been a better band. I just think it would have been interesting to watch. Presumably Mike would have had to write with Carl and David.
I think, had that happened, The Beach Boys would've been just one of the several surf bands from the early 60s whose music pops up on summertime oldies comps, but not much else.
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Post by lonelysummer on Oct 6, 2022 2:04:41 GMT
It would have been interesting had the Beach Boys proceeded without Brian Wilson from the beginning. Obviously, that means the quality of the original songs would have been worse, because it's hard to argue--especially early on--that anyone was as good a writer as he was. But the general direction and vibe of the band would have almost definitely been a more rock and roll and R&B direction. More guitar centric (even though it was quite guitar centric anyway in those first years). Probably more covers, especially in the early years.
By no means do I think it would have been a better band. I just think it would have been interesting to watch. Presumably Mike would have had to write with Carl and David.
I think, had that happened, The Beach Boys would've been just one of the several surf bands from the early 60s whose music pops up on summertime oldies comps, but not much else. Yeah, interest in the band probably would have dried up before Carl and Dennis started to mature in their songwriting and production.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 6, 2022 11:31:13 GMT
I think, had that happened, The Beach Boys would've been just one of the several surf bands from the early 60s whose music pops up on summertime oldies comps, but not much else. Yeah, interest in the band probably would have dried up before Carl and Dennis started to mature in their songwriting and production. The curve ball might be that they would have been forced to mature more quickly. So rather than waiting for 1968-71 to see them really get hot, they might have become competent and interesting by 1964-66. I mean, maybe. Who knows? (Also, if they weren't learning by watching Brian from within the band, it would be interesting to see just how they learned. Watching the various engineers and producers working with them, I'd guess.)
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Post by mikeiw8jsj28 on Oct 8, 2022 4:36:11 GMT
The curve ball might be that they would have been forced to mature more quickly. So rather than waiting for 1968-71 to see them really get hot, they might have become competent and interesting by 1964-66. I mean, maybe. Who knows? (Also, if they weren't learning by watching Brian from within the band, it would be interesting to see just how they learned. Watching the various engineers and producers working with them, I'd guess.) I'll do you one better, lets say David Marks stays in the Beach Boys, but Al still rejoins in 1963 and Bruce still joins in 1965 as a pianist, but Brian quits just after the bands first LP to pursue a solo career. What would have become of the 6 boys without their leader?
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 8, 2022 11:36:52 GMT
I'll do you one better, lets say David Marks stays in the Beach Boys, but Al still rejoins in 1963 and Bruce still joins in 1965 as a pianist, but Brian quits just after the bands first LP to pursue a solo career. What would have become of the 6 boys without their leader? Hmm, that's harder for a couple reasons almost built in to the premise: 1) I don't think Al would have rejoined without Brian, since it was Al's friendship with Brian that really connected him to the band; and 2) honestly it's hard to imagine a band (basically) without Brian being attractive and successful enough to attract Bruce a few years later.
That said ... I'd imagine they continue in the vein of Surfin Safari, but with an eye toward other fashions rather than innovating the way they did under Brian's leadership. Once Bruce joins, he is an accomplished mimic (think Bruce & Terry) and helps them fine tune whatever it is they're doing by then--which is probably copying the Beatles, more or less.
By the way, some posters through the years have dismissed these kinds of "what if" questions as if there couldn't be a bigger waste of time. I couldn't disagree more. I think they're a lot of fun. I mean, they are a waste of time (since you can never know, and can't change anything), but they're thought-provoking and can be a lot of fun. And anyway, most hobbies or pastimes are a waste or time in some way or other.
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Post by kds on Oct 8, 2022 11:51:30 GMT
I agree that what if scenarios are fun. Especially considering we're talking about a band that hasn't been the most active of late.
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