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Post by Kapitan on May 1, 2022 13:55:14 GMT
Also, I just want to throw it out there that I think Mike could have found a home as a frontman of new a group. There must have been some young, hungry straight-ahead rock 'n' roll groups that would have been lucky to have MIKE LOVE singing lead. Seriously. High energy stuff. Maybe heavy on covers. "Student Demonstration Time"-Mike..."All I Want To Do"-Mike..."Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow"-Mike, etc. I would have dug it. Might not have lasted long, but could have been cool. Mike is a very interesting case in this scenario. I was thinking he was headed for a mellower period (if it were my late 1971 breakup), having had his revision to "Big Sur" and ballads with Dennis in mind, as well as the theme of his environmentalism and meditation. But he is also coming off "SDT" and obviously has a lifelong love of rock and roll.
I do think that sooner than later he'd have been leading a band whose bread and butter was touring on Beach Boys music. I think he just had so much invested in that, understood his contribution to it, and saw that the market was there.
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Post by B.E. on May 1, 2022 14:09:22 GMT
Also, I just want to throw it out there that I think Mike could have found a home as a frontman of new a group. There must have been some young, hungry straight-ahead rock 'n' roll groups that would have been lucky to have MIKE LOVE singing lead. Seriously. High energy stuff, maybe heavy on covers. "Student Demonstration Time"-Mike, "All I Want To Do"-Mike, "Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow"-Mike, etc. I would have dug it. Might not have lasted long, but could have been cool. Mike is a very interesting case in this scenario. I was thinking he was headed for a mellower period (if it were my late 1971 breakup), having had his revision to "Big Sur" and ballads with Dennis in mind, as well as the theme of his environmentalism and meditation. But he is also coming off "SDT" and obviously has a lifelong love of rock and roll.
I do think that sooner than later he'd have been leading a band whose bread and butter was touring on Beach Boys music. I think he just had so much invested in that, understood his contribution to it, and saw that the market was there.
Oh, I don't doubt where he would have ended up, but it might have been a really good experience for him. And, it really seems like he was still open to trying different things during that period. (Maybe not open to what I'm suggesting, but most of the discussion is centered on other members' solo prospects and I just wanted to say, "hey, Mike could have made it!" And this is something I had thought about before and genuinely would have been interested in.)
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Post by Kapitan on May 1, 2022 14:28:45 GMT
I totally agree and think that Mike would have done just fine for himself.
He might have had some stumbles along the way in that he rarely seemed to quite connect with youth culture after the earliest years: I don't think he read the tea leaves for either hipster or commercial tastes as well as he seems to think he did and does. But that said, he hadn't yet developed that arch-villain reputation that he eventually did in the rock world. He would have had ample business opportunities, he could obviously write and especially cowrite songs, he could nail a lead vocal (or harmony) in the studio, and he was a true road warrior who delivered on stage. As you said, B.E., he could even have successfully led a largely covers kind of band, though I think that format was falling out of favor by this time, with original material more highly valued.
But yes, my version of this exercise definitely is not just a way to, say, free the Wilsons of Big Bad Mike. Not at all. I really believe a 1971 breakup would have been good for everyone involved in some way or another.
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Post by B.E. on May 1, 2022 14:45:55 GMT
he hadn't yet developed that arch-villain reputation that he eventually did in the rock world.
That really is something to think about...
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Post by Kapitan on May 1, 2022 15:46:56 GMT
he hadn't yet developed that arch-villain reputation that he eventually did in the rock world.
That really is something to think about... I would love for those of you who were following the Beach Boys from the late '60s onward what you recall as to the public presentation of Mike Love through the years, and specifically when he started being known as he came to be known.
I'm thinking now of the press. There is the David Anderle and Paul Williams discussion after Wild Honey that doesn't exactly make Mike a villain, but it certainly paints him as lame, out of touch. David Leaf's 1978 book certainly has the famous "don't fuck with the formula" line in it.
Do you remember Mike's general reputation as having ever been cool? When did it start changing? Was that mostly just in hipster circles first (a la the Williams/Anderle discussion), or more broad?
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sockit
The Surfer Moon
Posts: 234
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Post by sockit on May 1, 2022 17:42:18 GMT
You guys gave a lot more credit, or retrospectively had more confidence in the Beach Boys as potential solo artists than I ever would've given them - even in 1970-71 before the rot set in. That's one reason I added collaboration to my statement. They each had potential for solo careers to some degree. If Brian was able to stay focused and preserve his voice he could have gone on to some solo success in the mid 70s. He could have also branched out into soundtrack music or some similar projects. Or he could have gone back to producing other artists like he did in the mid 1960s. Dennis, of course had obvious potential for a whole string of solo albums throughout the 70s and theoretically beyond. With a healthier lifestyle and voice I could see him achieving success on his own. He certainly had a plethora of original material. Carl, Mike and Al might have found more consistent success in their solo careers without the burden of Beach Boys hanging around their necks. Or as I suggested in my post, maybe the best solution would have been to hang together with Blondie and Ricky with a reimagined band.
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sockit
The Surfer Moon
Posts: 234
Likes: 181
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Post by sockit on May 1, 2022 18:10:11 GMT
OK, in my ongoing effort to keep arguing my vote's merits (whether or not I fully believe them...), how about this?
Sunflower and Surf's Up allowed the band some semblance of saving face. The former was a commercial disaster domestically, but performed reasonably well elsewhere and seems to have been an album the band itself felt good about. The latter was a relative success.
That said, this period also shows the band--working relatively closely together as opposed to in bigger productions with more session musicians--that they have indeed grown apart. All those reasons I mentioned earlier as to why it's a good time to split come to light. Carl wants to play with Blondie and Ricky. Bruce doesn't feel fully integrated, and probably doesn't want to. Brian is busy doing nothing. Dennis is bursting with ideas and ambitions that are the polar opposite of Mike's.
While they may have felt like breaking up at other times--during the Smile debacle, or when they cobbled together the facade of 20/20--this time it doesn't feel like breaking up out of necessity after a failure. With the majestic coda of "Surf's Up" swirling, they realize that this is the end of an era they can be proud of and walk away from with heads held high.
Kapitan, you make some valid points. When I cast my vote yesterday, I was teetering between 1970 and 1971 as the break up year. I based my initial post on the fact that, personally, I feel that Sunflower is a superior album to its followup and would have made a good final album for The Beach Boys. However, in reality Sunflower was not anywhere as commercially successful as Surfs Up was. The smart thing, then would have been to end the chapter with that one. Although there are a few low points on Surfs Up, the album as a whole did well. And the song "Surfs Up" could have still opened the door for Brian to finish and release SMiLE....perhaps sooner? So I stand by my vote, but bump up the year to 1971.
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Post by bellesofparisstan on May 1, 2022 20:56:58 GMT
I think a lot of people don’t realize just how much of a necessary cash cow the Beach boys name actually was. Realistically, at least until the early 80s or so, the group *couldn’t* split up because they would all be in financial trouble. The only one who probably wouldn’t have much issue was Brian, just off of name recognition alone. But there are plenty of stories about how the group was on the edge of bankruptcy in the late 60s and early 70s, everyone knows how Dennis couldn’t keep two dollars in his pocket without spending it, In his autobiography Mike goes into some detail about how in the 70s and 80s his financial situation was a disaster, etc. The first time a break up is ever even mentioned in the Beach boys story is in the fall of 1977. I also don’t think it’s any coincidence that 1977 was their most financially successful year of all time at that point. There are so many reasons why, pretty much at any point in time, a Beach Boys break up would’ve been one of the stupidest decisions they could’ve ever made. Sure, it’s nice to dream about this imaginary alternate universe where Dennis and Carl could pump out absolute masterpieces year after year post Holland, and Brian starts a chart ruling solo career where he just has hit after hit after hit, but realistically that probably wouldn’t have happened. To start with, Brian‘s solo career is all based off the Beach boys. He has even said that when he writes music today, he is still writing for those beach boy voices. Why on earth would he start a solo career, writing music that’s supposed to be for the Beach boys voices, when he just… has the Beach boys voices at his disposal? It wouldn’t be a good decision. Dennis made some absolutely amazing music without the Beach boys, but he was never focused enough, and he never had the discipline to make something work. Sure, making a solo album on the side, while still doing The Beach Boys as a main gig was something that he did. But did he honestly have the focus and discipline to keep up a solo career without the steady flow of income from the beach boys touring? Probably not. If anything it could’ve lead to his self-destruction even sooner. Carl was far from prolific enough at songwriting to be able to sustain a solo career. He may have been a good Industry producer though. Even still, he certainly wouldn’t have made nearly as much money as he did leading the Beach boys touring group. Mike was born to be the front man of the Beach boys and nothing else. Even celebration, his one minor success outside of the beach boys, was pretty much just the beach boys. Al would’ve been fine. But no, there’s no point in time where I think a beach boys break up would’ve been good, advisable, smart, better, or anything positive. The reason The Beatles break up was such a net positive in hindsight is because they were all ready for it. All of them had name recognition. All of them had public personalities that were easily recognizable. All of them were sitting on huge stock piles of music, especially George. All of them had major industry connections. All of them were extremely well-off financially. The Beach boys had none of these things. Outside of Brian and maybe Mike, none of them had major public name recognition. None of them had their own personalities that you could see from a mile away. None of them hadHuge stockpiles of music just ready to go. None of them had proven themselves as potential solo artists, with the possible exception of Dennis. None of them had the same major industry connections. It would’ve been an uphill battle for all of them, some more than others but still.
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Post by Kapitan on May 1, 2022 22:19:19 GMT
So instead they did the smart thing and maintained a circular firing squad of a business entity that dictated their careers against their personal preferences, each somewhat vocally miserable, for decades of lawsuits, cash grabs, nostalgia, and internal politics. Much smarter. I'm sure on his death bed, Carl thought, "at least I sang backgrounds for James House on a remake of one of our hits. I can die fully content, no regrets."
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Post by bellesofparisstan on May 2, 2022 1:12:00 GMT
So instead they did the smart thing and maintained a circular firing squad of a business entity that dictated their careers against their personal preferences, each somewhat vocally miserable, for decades of lawsuits, cash grabs, nostalgia, and internal politics. Much smarter. I'm sure on his death bed, Carl thought, "at least I sang backgrounds for James House on a remake of one of our hits. I can die fully content, no regrets."
In a way, yes. To start with, I’m assuming by lawsuits you’re referring to The big ones, the Michael versus Brian ones… which would’ve still happened even if they broke up in 1967. It was all about songwriting royalties from the early days which, assuming they did break up, wouldn’t have changed the situation. As for Carl, let’s not forget that stars and stripes only happen because he refused to Participate in the recording of a Mid90s reunion Beach boys album, an album which songs had already been written for (by Brian and Andy Paley), an album which they already had a producer for (Donwas), and an album that they could have easily completed and gotten plenty of critical praise from. But no, it was Carl, not Mike, not Brian, not Bruce, not Al, but Carl who walked out of the session and refused to participate, so we got stars and stripes instead. And finally, I’m not sure why you assume that just because they break up, that automatically means there wouldn’t be any “lawsuits, cash grabs, nostalgia, and internal politics.” Have you guys heard of the Beatles? Because we were sure talking about them earlier, and one thing you’ll notice about their break up, even though they all landed on their feet quite nicely, they were all battling each other both in the public-eye and the courtroom for decades. Who’s to say that a Beach Boys break up wouldn’t have been even more messy? Especially knowing this bands history of absolutely nonsensical decisions both financially and personally. So in the grand scheme of things, yes I think sticking together was the smartest decision that they could’ve ever made.
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Post by Kapitan on May 2, 2022 11:16:59 GMT
Couldn't disagree more with your conclusion (but yes, the songwriting royalties lawsuits would have still happened).
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Post by Kapitan on May 2, 2022 14:28:16 GMT
But there are plenty of stories about how the group was on the edge of bankruptcy in the late 60s and early 70s, everyone knows how Dennis couldn’t keep two dollars in his pocket without spending it, In his autobiography Mike goes into some detail about how in the 70s and 80s his financial situation was a disaster, etc. ... There are so many reasons why, pretty much at any point in time, a Beach Boys break up would’ve been one of the stupidest decisions they could’ve ever made. Sure, it’s nice to dream about this imaginary alternate universe where Dennis and Carl could pump out absolute masterpieces year after year post Holland, and Brian starts a chart ruling solo career where he just has hit after hit after hit, but realistically that probably wouldn’t have happened. I understand your points, and my earlier response was not really addressing specifics so much as the spirit of it all. But I do want to respond a little more directly.
My overarching thought to keep in mind is, obviously we're just speculating for fun. And counterfactuals are by definition counterfactual. So no hypothetical can be proved. It's just entertainment. But that said, no hypotheticals offered so far involved "this imaginary universe where Dennis and Carl could pump out absolute masterpieces ... and Brian starts a chart ruling solo career." Nobody even got close to that, did they? (In fact, I more or less left Brian out of my speculation, assuming he'd have gone on doing what he was doing: cocaine, drinking, etc.)
And as for the stuff about the band losing money around the turn of the decade, that for me is an argument FOR breaking up around when they did. It was expensive to run a big-time band (with supplemental musicians on the road). There were expectations. There was a reputation/legacy already at that point, and they were both using it and chafing against it.
The idea of a breakup at that point is a fresh start. It's a divorce and a bankruptcy filing all rolled into one. It lets people try to live their (musical-professional) lives as they might want to live them. It seems to me that the idea of sticking together is a little bit like telling a battered wife that she ought to stick around because, after all, her abusive husband pays the bills and she doesn't have enough education or work experience to land a good job. I realize that's dramatic, but I don't think the analogy is entirely off. Telling a bunch of 30-year-olds their lives are as good as over, they have no other prospects, they're locked into this often and increasingly unpleasant role? What a conservative and pessimistic thought that seems to me.
I wholly grant your point that none of them had name recognition on their own to any significant degree. But they all had the name recognition of having been Beach Boys. Dennis in particular had the potential to have a legitimate solo career, especially at that point in his life, before he was a total train wreck. I'm not saying he'd have been a star. He might well have burned out before he even released an album. But he was talented and attractive and a former Beach Boys. He had a movie role. He had a solo career at least bubbling under the surface anyway (and a very talented collaborator in Daryl Dragon who could have helped him realize it). No guarantees, obviously! But it's interesting, and the time to do it would have been earlier than later.
With Carl, he had less going for him in terms of a solo career ... but of course I didn't have him starting a solo career. I had him in a new band, probably with the Flame guys. Maybe it's an album's worth. Maybe it's a career. I don't know. He wasn't pinup material, and so I do think he'd have a harder time, but he was a great singer and solid producer. I think he could've been interesting in a band that wasn't full of the family's baggage.
We just discussed Mike above, so I won't repeat that. Bruce actually did leave where I have the breakup, so what he does is what he does. Al is the toughest to pin down an alternative path for. I have no idea what he might have done: try out a small-scale solo career, join some other band (there were plenty of 60s bands breaking up and shuffling old friends and members, after all), or just laying low a while and figuring things out.
Regardless, though, I think it's a mistake to assume these alternative possibilities would only have been for the best had everyone ended up more successful in their careers. The only thing we know is that the band had seemingly more problems (musical, personal, business) than not from the 70s onward. That said, they raked in a ton of money along the way from touring. The alternatives might have seen somebody having similar chart success that the band had in the 70s (which was tepid, to be sure), and the others not. It could've seen a couple of factional bands. It could have seen Brian or Dennis dying young instead of flourishing.
But I think the Beach Boys' legacy itself would have likely been stronger at having avoided the nonsense and sideshow that it became more often than not from then onward. And I think--totally speculating, obviously--that at least some of the guys would have found more personal satisfaction in their lives, even if they never reached the heights of peak Beach Boys. (Which I do think would have been the case: they would not have reached that peak--none of them.) My speculation upon speculation also assumes that this personal growth would have set the groundwork for a more permanent and healthy reunion later after they'd each "sowed their wild oats." And then there'd have been plenty of money to be made again.
It seems to me a much healthier choice for them than saying that the way it went was the best that could have been. I can't accept that. It was the way it was and there's no changing it, that much is true. But to think it couldn't have gone any other way and worked out better for anyone? I reject that (even though I'm not remotely confident my little speculative situation would have been better for the majority).
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Post by lonelysummer on May 2, 2022 19:42:44 GMT
I think a lot of people don’t realize just how much of a necessary cash cow the Beach boys name actually was. Realistically, at least until the early 80s or so, the group *couldn’t* split up because they would all be in financial trouble. The only one who probably wouldn’t have much issue was Brian, just off of name recognition alone. But there are plenty of stories about how the group was on the edge of bankruptcy in the late 60s and early 70s, everyone knows how Dennis couldn’t keep two dollars in his pocket without spending it, In his autobiography Mike goes into some detail about how in the 70s and 80s his financial situation was a disaster, etc. The first time a break up is ever even mentioned in the Beach boys story is in the fall of 1977. I also don’t think it’s any coincidence that 1977 was their most financially successful year of all time at that point. There are so many reasons why, pretty much at any point in time, a Beach Boys break up would’ve been one of the stupidest decisions they could’ve ever made. Sure, it’s nice to dream about this imaginary alternate universe where Dennis and Carl could pump out absolute masterpieces year after year post Holland, and Brian starts a chart ruling solo career where he just has hit after hit after hit, but realistically that probably wouldn’t have happened. To start with, Brian‘s solo career is all based off the Beach boys. He has even said that when he writes music today, he is still writing for those beach boy voices. Why on earth would he start a solo career, writing music that’s supposed to be for the Beach boys voices, when he just… has the Beach boys voices at his disposal? It wouldn’t be a good decision. Dennis made some absolutely amazing music without the Beach boys, but he was never focused enough, and he never had the discipline to make something work. Sure, making a solo album on the side, while still doing The Beach Boys as a main gig was something that he did. But did he honestly have the focus and discipline to keep up a solo career without the steady flow of income from the beach boys touring? Probably not. If anything it could’ve lead to his self-destruction even sooner. Carl was far from prolific enough at songwriting to be able to sustain a solo career. He may have been a good Industry producer though. Even still, he certainly wouldn’t have made nearly as much money as he did leading the Beach boys touring group. Mike was born to be the front man of the Beach boys and nothing else. Even celebration, his one minor success outside of the beach boys, was pretty much just the beach boys. Al would’ve been fine. But no, there’s no point in time where I think a beach boys break up would’ve been good, advisable, smart, better, or anything positive. The reason The Beatles break up was such a net positive in hindsight is because they were all ready for it. All of them had name recognition. All of them had public personalities that were easily recognizable. All of them were sitting on huge stock piles of music, especially George. All of them had major industry connections. All of them were extremely well-off financially. The Beach boys had none of these things. Outside of Brian and maybe Mike, none of them had major public name recognition. None of them had their own personalities that you could see from a mile away. None of them hadHuge stockpiles of music just ready to go. None of them had proven themselves as potential solo artists, with the possible exception of Dennis. None of them had the same major industry connections. It would’ve been an uphill battle for all of them, some more than others but still. How is 1977 their most financially successful year to that point? I'm puzzled. I would have said 1976, with a top 5 single, hit album, summer tour of arenas and stadiums, and Brian is Back. They didn't tour much in 77, did they? And the album they put out was a flop.
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Post by bellesofparisstan on May 3, 2022 21:58:05 GMT
I think a lot of people don’t realize just how much of a necessary cash cow the Beach boys name actually was. Realistically, at least until the early 80s or so, the group *couldn’t* split up because they would all be in financial trouble. The only one who probably wouldn’t have much issue was Brian, just off of name recognition alone. But there are plenty of stories about how the group was on the edge of bankruptcy in the late 60s and early 70s, everyone knows how Dennis couldn’t keep two dollars in his pocket without spending it, In his autobiography Mike goes into some detail about how in the 70s and 80s his financial situation was a disaster, etc. The first time a break up is ever even mentioned in the Beach boys story is in the fall of 1977. I also don’t think it’s any coincidence that 1977 was their most financially successful year of all time at that point. There are so many reasons why, pretty much at any point in time, a Beach Boys break up would’ve been one of the stupidest decisions they could’ve ever made. Sure, it’s nice to dream about this imaginary alternate universe where Dennis and Carl could pump out absolute masterpieces year after year post Holland, and Brian starts a chart ruling solo career where he just has hit after hit after hit, but realistically that probably wouldn’t have happened. To start with, Brian‘s solo career is all based off the Beach boys. He has even said that when he writes music today, he is still writing for those beach boy voices. Why on earth would he start a solo career, writing music that’s supposed to be for the Beach boys voices, when he just… has the Beach boys voices at his disposal? It wouldn’t be a good decision. Dennis made some absolutely amazing music without the Beach boys, but he was never focused enough, and he never had the discipline to make something work. Sure, making a solo album on the side, while still doing The Beach Boys as a main gig was something that he did. But did he honestly have the focus and discipline to keep up a solo career without the steady flow of income from the beach boys touring? Probably not. If anything it could’ve lead to his self-destruction even sooner. Carl was far from prolific enough at songwriting to be able to sustain a solo career. He may have been a good Industry producer though. Even still, he certainly wouldn’t have made nearly as much money as he did leading the Beach boys touring group. Mike was born to be the front man of the Beach boys and nothing else. Even celebration, his one minor success outside of the beach boys, was pretty much just the beach boys. Al would’ve been fine. But no, there’s no point in time where I think a beach boys break up would’ve been good, advisable, smart, better, or anything positive. The reason The Beatles break up was such a net positive in hindsight is because they were all ready for it. All of them had name recognition. All of them had public personalities that were easily recognizable. All of them were sitting on huge stock piles of music, especially George. All of them had major industry connections. All of them were extremely well-off financially. The Beach boys had none of these things. Outside of Brian and maybe Mike, none of them had major public name recognition. None of them had their own personalities that you could see from a mile away. None of them hadHuge stockpiles of music just ready to go. None of them had proven themselves as potential solo artists, with the possible exception of Dennis. None of them had the same major industry connections. It would’ve been an uphill battle for all of them, some more than others but still. How is 1977 their most financially successful year to that point? I'm puzzled. I would have said 1976, with a top 5 single, hit album, summer tour of arenas and stadiums, and Brian is Back. They didn't tour much in 77, did they? And the album they put out was a flop. Huge multi million dollar cbs contract… on top of the touring revenue and income still pouring in from greatest hits compilations.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 4, 2022 12:42:34 GMT
In reading posters' opinions regarding when or if The Beach Boys should have broken up, it made me think about what each individual Beach Boy would've done with their time if they weren't in The Beach Boys - and this could've been any decade. Even if each Beach Boy stayed in the music business in some capacity (and they probably would've), obviously they would've had significantly more free time on their hands without having to consistently record and tour with The Beach Boys.
And, it occurred to me that after all we fans have read, watched, listened to, and written about The Beach Boys, we know relatively little about the band members personally. What in the hell did these guys...do? Can anybody list one hobby that Carl Wilson had? Or David Marks? Bruce has said that he still surfs, but, come on, there's only so much surfing he could do. What else does Bruce do with his spare time? How about Al? Do you think he really works that farm? And Mike Love. Mike always came across as the most diverse Beach Boy. But, when Mike is not touring, what exactly does he do?
And then there's Dennis and Brian. OK, I won't get into how Dennis spent his free time, his lifestyle if you will. But, like Bruce, other than surfing and, for a time, sailing the Harmony, I have no idea what other interests Dennis had (OK, don't go there ). With Brian, especially in his later years, we have read and seen photos of his daily trips to his favorite deli and walking in the park. Brian has shared that he likes to watch game shows and sports on TV, and listens to oldies radio stations. Anything else?
I'm not implying or suggesting that the guys should've had these sophisticated hobbies like art collecting or wine tasting or extravagant dinner parties in their mansions. Actually, they always came across as guys who would probably enjoy many of the simple things in life, much like their music reflects. But, it does make you wonder what they would've been - or done - as regular citizens if they weren't busy Beach Boys.
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