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Post by B.E. on Apr 17, 2020 16:16:38 GMT
It's a Brian Wilson album with some Beach Boys vocals flown in in prominent spots to make it sound like they're more present than they are, plus a little input from Mike. It's a facade.
Hey, that's the recipe for some of my favorite Beach Boys albums!
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 17, 2020 16:19:37 GMT
As you know, I disagree entirely about Brian's ability to do high parts on the album. Not that I love Jeff's parts, but Brian would have sounded terrible on them, even though he had been singing reasonably well in lower registers. I think we'd have been left with either an unmitigated embarrassment or such dramatic pitch correction as to have brought out the hounds.
Joe Thomas made it work on every BW he ever worked starting with Imagination. And we're not talking about "You Still Believe In Me"-type stuff here. Just a few prominent high vocal parts that stick out. I hear them and say to myself - "Yeah, that's obviously Jeff. Damn, why didn't Brian sing that? He probably didn't even try. Was he too lazy?" And I like Jeff's voice, but basically live. It still bothers me. I know. But Wilson was 14 years younger the last time Thomas made it work.
We're just going to disagree on this point forever.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 17, 2020 16:22:13 GMT
It's a Brian Wilson album with some Beach Boys vocals flown in in prominent spots to make it sound like they're more present than they are, plus a little input from Mike. It's a facade.
Hey, that's the recipe for some of my favorite Beach Boys albums! Name them! I'd argue the biggest difference is that on those earlier Brian productions, the band's vocals weren't "some ... flown in in prominent spots," but rather the entirety of the vocals. Pet Sounds includes everyone, everywhere (with a couple of exceptions). TWGMTR has a Mike bass line here and there or an Al "yeah" to help you remember it's a Beach Boys record.
I'd pay a handsome sum to learn the sheer percentages of audible vocals on the album by person. I'd guess it's more Jeff than anyone, then Brian, then a large gap before Mike, then Al.
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Post by B.E. on Apr 17, 2020 16:56:48 GMT
Hey, that's the recipe for some of my favorite Beach Boys albums! Name them! I'd argue the biggest difference is that on those earlier Brian productions, the band's vocals weren't "some ... flown in in prominent spots," but rather the entirety of the vocals. Pet Sounds includes everyone, everywhere (with a couple of exceptions). TWGMTR has a Mike bass line here and there or an Al "yeah" to help you remember it's a Beach Boys record. I'd pay a handsome sum to learn the sheer percentages of audible vocals on the album by person. I'd guess it's more Jeff than anyone, then Brian, then a large gap before Mike, then Al.
Well, now that you've so neatly and narrowly defined "flown in in prominent spots" I'm having a little trouble.  Also, I was half joking, so there's that. In spirit though, I'd say albums like Pet Sounds, Smiley Smile, Friends, and Love You would fit a more generous interpretation. I disagree with you to an extent regarding Pet Sounds, Brian is easily the most prevalent vocalist on the album. That said, I completely understand and largely agree with your point(s) about TWGMTR. I just can't help but think about the numerous Beach Boys albums that were nearly entirely Brian's, and often with the help of non-BBs (from outside lyricists to session musicians). The other members were often reduced to "hey, sing this part". (I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much.) Edit: I probably should have included 15 Big Ones, too. Notice the lack of Mike co-writes on those albums.
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Post by kds on Apr 17, 2020 18:25:09 GMT
Name them! I'd argue the biggest difference is that on those earlier Brian productions, the band's vocals weren't "some ... flown in in prominent spots," but rather the entirety of the vocals. Pet Sounds includes everyone, everywhere (with a couple of exceptions). TWGMTR has a Mike bass line here and there or an Al "yeah" to help you remember it's a Beach Boys record. I'd pay a handsome sum to learn the sheer percentages of audible vocals on the album by person. I'd guess it's more Jeff than anyone, then Brian, then a large gap before Mike, then Al.
Well, now that you've so neatly and narrowly defined "flown in in prominent spots" I'm having a little trouble. Also, I was half joking, so there's that. In spirit though, I'd say albums like Pet Sounds, Smiley Smile, Friends, and Love You would fit a more generous interpretation. I disagree with you to an extent regarding Pet Sounds, Brian is easily the most prevalent vocalist on the album. That said, I completely understand and largely agree with your point(s) about TWGMTR. I just can't help but think about the numerous Beach Boys albums that were nearly entirely Brian's, and often with the help of non-BBs (from outside lyricists to session musicians). The other members were often reduced to "hey, sing this part". (I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much.) Edit: I probably should have included 15 Big Ones, too. Notice the lack of Mike co-writes on those albums. I think Kap is referring more to the harmony vocals. As much as I love the TWGMTR, the harmonies more often than not sound like BW solo works than the BB to me. Take the intro of Pacific Coast Highway and compare it to the harmonies on Shelter for example.
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Post by kds on Apr 17, 2020 18:35:26 GMT
Speaking a bit of Sheriff and Kap's points, I do consider TWGMTR a Beach Boys album. Sure, it didn't feature Brian and Mike banging out songs together, and had some outside help. But, considering Carl and Dennis were gone, it sounds more like a Beach Boys album that anything they'd put out in the last 35-40 years (not saying much I know). My main quibble is with the lack of BB harmonies, as I mentioned above.
Sheriff, I don't fully agree that it's not a fun album. I think much of the first three fourths of the album is very lightweight, even if it doesn't always touch on beaches and such. Sure, it could've used a more up tempo South American or Sail Away song in there, but I find the album to be very joyful until the last three songs.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 17, 2020 19:19:14 GMT
Sheriff, I don't fully agree that it's not a fun album. I think much of the first three fourths of the album is very lightweight, even if it doesn't always touch on beaches and such. Sure, it could've used a more up tempo South American or Sail Away song in there, but I find the album to be very joyful until the last three songs. To me, it's not so much the subject matter of the songs but just the feeling - or lack of - that I get from the songs. I wish they would've cut loose more, a little more energy, more flat out rock and roll. I get the feeling somebody was saying, no, you guys are way past that stage. We can't go BACK to that. We need more Pet Sounds! Again, which Beach Boys would NOT have wanted some good old rock and roll?
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 17, 2020 19:35:01 GMT
I think you're unlikely to get especially energetic, vibrant rock and roll from a band of septuagenarians. And even if you do, there is something that doesn't quite sit well with me (especially if Mr. Love is writing his typical post-75 lyrics).
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 17, 2020 19:43:16 GMT
I think you're unlikely to get especially energetic, vibrant rock and roll from a band of septuagenarians. And even if you do, there is something that doesn't quite sit well with me (especially if Mr. Love is writing his typical post-75 lyrics). And then they released a live album with about 25 fast songs on it (which was ruined with autotune BTW). But that's my point. Those were the songs that they were performing live - and pleasing their fans with. And that included a 70 year-old Mike and Brian. Then it comes to an album and it's, no, you can't record them on here. Didn't make sense to me. That's what most fans wanted to hear. Mike singing rock and roll. Brian singing the high part. David playing kick-ass rock and roll guitar. Hey, I was only asking for one or two songs, not an entire album.
Something like this:
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 17, 2020 19:50:51 GMT
But those concerts were heavily supported by the backing band. They were a sleight of hand, just like the album was.
I'm sorry, I just think your complaints/wish-list isn't realistic. I'm not saying it wouldn't be good to have a Beach Boys album with lots of energy, performed by the group, with group co-writes, with Brian wailing on the high parts. But I don't think anyone would enjoy the result very much. But again, we obviously haven't seen eye to eye on it for years; we're not likely to now.
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Post by B.E. on Apr 17, 2020 19:52:21 GMT
Hey, I was only asking for one or two songs, not an entire album. That's a totally fair point. But, how many of those fast songs from the live album were written post-1965? or 1972? It happens to a lot of artists. It happened to John Lennon damn near the day he turned 30. Brian and Mike don't write flat out rock 'n' roll anymore. Haven't for decades. Al never did. (By the way, I think that doesn't get enough recognition for the Beach Boys declining popularity in the late '60s and beyond).
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Post by B.E. on Apr 17, 2020 20:18:47 GMT
For the record, I'd have loved more music like this from Brian and the guys over the years. I'm with you 100% on that. (Though, I think Kapitan is right to be concerned about the quality. That lead is far from great and Mike's lyrics have been mostly bad for over 40 years now.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2020 1:55:14 GMT
As long as the sheriff is composing these analyzes, the professor need not say another word. According to Jon S, Dave was happy that he is playing guitar on almost every song and his favorite is the title track where hes playing a great and audible rhythm part. I think Davis also prominent on summer's gone with that kind of slightly off key mock South Pacific guitar part. So if dave was artistically satisfied even a little bit then I'm happy. And my only happiness concerning The Beach Boys is contingent on the respect they play to David marks and to their own history. And to be clear the sheriff's is right about absolutely everything and I'm so comforted to see his keen analysis. There was always...something...wrong with That's Why God Made The Radio, at least to me. It turned out the way I thought it would. Competent. Somewhat satisfying. Maybe even as good as could be expected. But, you could almost feel the flaws, flaws that would eventually be brought to light.
TWGMTR is not a "fun" album; it's non-Mike Love. What are there, two fun, old-Beach Boys-like songs - "Spring Vacation" and "Beaches In Mind", maybe "Daybreak Over The Ocean". I certainly would've appreciated another one or two songs in that vein. I think many Beach Boys' fans would've appreciated it, too. Mike has subsequently expressed his dissatisfaction with his lack of involvement in the album's writing process.
Related to that, I certainly expected more of a David Marks' presence. The lead guitarist is barely audible on the album. Was David merely brought back to fill a slot? To make the reunion more legitimate? To undo some kind of wrong decades ago? Why was there not one fast, rock and roll song on the album? Mike & Bruce perform several of them every night. Brian had/has talked endlessly about doing a rock and roll album. Even Al's solo album rocks in places. Isn't that - rock and roll - how David cut his teeth, made his reputation. Again, they couldn't come up with one song featuring his playing, allowing him to cut loose?
Eight or nine years ago when TWGMTR was recorded, Brian Wilson was still singing at a fairly respectable level. His vocals were actually improving as the 2000's were progressing. That Lucky Old Sun, Gershwin, Disney, and No Pier Pressure all feature excellent vocals in places from Brian. Yet, TWGMTR is so Jeff Foskett-heavy. Why? Why didn't Brian go for it? There are so many places on TWGMTR that feature high parts, and Jeff sticks out so prominently. I still feel disappointed when I hear them. I'll always believe with Joe Thomas producing, technology, and effort from Brian would've resulted in much more satisfying high vocals which would've, in turn, taken the album to another level.
Finally, I don't agree with the direction of TWGMTR, which to me was making it an almost totally Brian Wilson-composed album with just vocal input from a few Beach Boys. I think the album lost some personality because of that. It's not just that Al, Bruce, and maybe David deserved to contribute one of their songs, but I think that would've made the album more interesting and ultimately better. I'm not saying you had to delete any Brian songs, though I wouldn't have minded omitting "The Private Life Of Bill And Sue", just make it more of a team album, a group album, a 2012 Beach Boys' album. What we got was another Brian Wilson solo album with guest vocalists. Sound familiar?
The success of TWGMTR was similar to 15 Big Ones - it benefited from timing. The 50th Anniversary of the group. Another "Brian Is Back" episode. A new album after a long absence. A lot of publicity including TV several appearances. I don't think you can emphasize enough how successful the marketing campaign of TWGMTR was, especially the QVC performance. That moved a lot of units in a short period of time and really propelled the album up the charts. Yes, TWGMTR should be considered a success, but as has been mentioned, the album didn't seem to have legs.
Was TWGMTR a quickie? After having how many years to plan for it, it did come about fairly quickly. You had the Mike Love songwriting debacle. Skunk Baxter being brought in instead of using David. Which songs were taken from the Brian Wilson-Joe Thomas tapes and which ones would be left in the can? Ignore Al and Bruce or include them? And, of course we know what ultimately happened with the tour. Or do we? Same old, same old...
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Post by kds on Apr 18, 2020 11:48:37 GMT
Sheriff, I don't fully agree that it's not a fun album. I think much of the first three fourths of the album is very lightweight, even if it doesn't always touch on beaches and such. Sure, it could've used a more up tempo South American or Sail Away song in there, but I find the album to be very joyful until the last three songs. To me, it's not so much the subject matter of the songs but just the feeling - or lack of - that I get from the songs. I wish they would've cut loose more, a little more energy, more flat out rock and roll. I get the feeling somebody was saying, no, you guys are way past that stage. We can't go BACK to that. We need more Pet Sounds! Again, which Beach Boys would NOT have wanted some good old rock and roll? Thats fair. But, examples of any of the Boys really cutting loose in recent years are few. |
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Post by kds on Apr 18, 2020 11:51:01 GMT
On a side note, its easy to poke and prod at everything wrong with TWGMTR.
But, I still think the album's existence is something to be celebrated. The fact the good is as good as it is is a miracle.
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Also, I was half joking, so there's that. In spirit though, I'd say albums like Pet Sounds, Smiley Smile, Friends, and Love You would fit a more generous interpretation. I disagree with you to an extent regarding Pet Sounds, Brian is easily the most prevalent vocalist on the album. That said, I completely understand and largely agree with your point(s) about TWGMTR. I just can't help but think about the numerous Beach Boys albums that were nearly entirely Brian's, and often with the help of non-BBs (from outside lyricists to session musicians). The other members were often reduced to "hey, sing this part". (I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much.)
Sept 30, 2024 19:53:42 GMT
Sept 30, 2024 19:53:42 GMT
