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Post by Kapitan on Jan 28, 2020 19:12:32 GMT
And that, in a nutshell, is why I posted my little OT love fest above: it’s pleasant to speak one’s mind and read others’ ideas without the constant threat of factional rage and judgement.
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Post by kds on Jan 28, 2020 19:37:20 GMT
But in the modern era, I think Brian Wilson’s inability or unwillingness to write and record more good music is that he’s an old man whose era is long gone. The wells of genius might be deep, but they’re not bottomless. Like most or all of his living counterparts, his time has simply passed, for the most part. He wrote a ton of great stuff. It’s hard to keep writing great stuff. The odds of continuing to innovate and commercially succeed across decades are infinitesimal. It would be a bigger and more amazing story if he had kept it up; not that he has dropped off. I definitely agree with that. And, it was that argument, well, it became an argument, that led to a lot of the turmoil on the Smiley Smile forum (among other things) and personally got me into trouble. I did/do believe that Brian's better days were/are behind him, and I stated so in several posts. Usually the debate was about Brian's reliance on his collaborators, and that the final product we were hearing was becoming more and more collaborator-driven and less Brian Wilson-influenced. For obvious reasons, I couldn't just come out and say, "Hey, we all know that Brian Wilson is mentally ill to the extent that he can't carry an entire album anymore and should reunite with The Beach Boys blah blah blah..." or "I hear more Joe Thomas in that production than Brian Wilson because Brian no longer has it in him to produce like that blah blah blah..." And, then the shit hit the fan. The other members and especially the moderators didn't want to hear it. How dare you say those things about Brian Wilson! How dare you say that he didn't write that! How dare you say that his wifeandmanagers are deceiving us and calling the shots! Well, we all know where that forum went from there. It was no longer tolerable to criticize Brian Wilson in any way, even in intelligent discussions like we are having here.
I didn't mean to get that far off track and go back to those dark days, and that particular forum was one of the worst perpetrators in trying to keep the myth alive, and not just with the recording aspect, but touring, interviewing, and making decisions for himself. So many times I'll be reading an interview or an article featuring Brian, and the interviewer/author just keeps referring to Brian as a genius (in the present tense) as if he continued to write this timeless music, and continues to come up with this brilliant music, when in reality, that "genius music" stopped a long time ago. It's no fun stating the obvious about somebody like Brian who has given us so much musical happiness. Sometimes the truth hurts.
Unfortunately, I think that's just par for the course for many legacy artists. Brian Wilson is no different. I know it sounds harsh when I say a song that's almost 50 years old is his last "truly genius" work, but I still greatly enjoy a lot of his work after that. But, as you know, among some fans and even some industry people, it's a sin to be objective whatsoever.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 29, 2020 0:36:52 GMT
I cannot stress enough how important I think that is, KDS: the fact that one can enjoy something beyond "genius." I think that people who fail to admit to enjoy--or worse, to somehow actually fail to enjoy--that territory between mediocre and pretty damn good are missing out. They cheat themselves.
Realistically, we ALL enjoy a certain amount of that space. Once we find artists we like, let's be serious, we dig into their catalogs and end up really enjoying what any uninterested party would consider mediocre or wholly unremarkable. But we like the artist, so we find something to like in the music. It's pretty good ... and pretty good is PRETTY GOOD. (If it were unlistenable, it would be called unlistenable.)
The problem is that people seem to feel cornered into the space of either arguing for genius or totally discarding something. It's just not a necessary move to make.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 29, 2020 12:47:25 GMT
I definitely agree with that. And, it was that argument, well, it became an argument, that led to a lot of the turmoil on the Smiley Smile forum (among other things) and personally got me into trouble. I did/do believe that Brian's better days were/are behind him, and I stated so in several posts. Usually the debate was about Brian's reliance on his collaborators, and that the final product we were hearing was becoming more and more collaborator-driven and less Brian Wilson-influenced. For obvious reasons, I couldn't just come out and say, "Hey, we all know that Brian Wilson is mentally ill to the extent that he can't carry an entire album anymore and should reunite with The Beach Boys blah blah blah..." or "I hear more Joe Thomas in that production than Brian Wilson because Brian no longer has it in him to produce like that blah blah blah..." And, then the shit hit the fan. The other members and especially the moderators didn't want to hear it. How dare you say those things about Brian Wilson! How dare you say that he didn't write that! How dare you say that his wifeandmanagers are deceiving us and calling the shots! Well, we all know where that forum went from there. It was no longer tolerable to criticize Brian Wilson in any way, even in intelligent discussions like we are having here.
I didn't mean to get that far off track and go back to those dark days, and that particular forum was one of the worst perpetrators in trying to keep the myth alive, and not just with the recording aspect, but touring, interviewing, and making decisions for himself. So many times I'll be reading an interview or an article featuring Brian, and the interviewer/author just keeps referring to Brian as a genius (in the present tense) as if he continued to write this timeless music, and continues to come up with this brilliant music, when in reality, that "genius music" stopped a long time ago. It's no fun stating the obvious about somebody like Brian who has given us so much musical happiness. Sometimes the truth hurts.
Unfortunately, I think that's just par for the course for many legacy artists. Brian Wilson is no different. I know it sounds harsh when I say a song that's almost 50 years old is his last "truly genius" work, but I still greatly enjoy a lot of his work after that. But, as you know, among some fans and even some industry people, it's a sin to be objective whatsoever. True, and that brings up another point related to this subject.
In the past, the fairly recent past actually, there were a few legacy artists who might've stayed too long, and while maybe not affecting their legacies, didn't exactly leave under the best of circumstances. Three that come to mind are Chuck Berry, Johnny Winter, and Johnny Cash. When I watched those three near the end of their careers, and, well, lives, I wasn't thinking, "They have the right to do whatever they want to do, they earned it." Instead, I was hoping they would just...stop...gracefully. I remember seeing some of those Chuck Berry shows on YouTube, and seeing Chuck obliterate those classic songs. Or Johnny Winter being helped onto the stage, barely able to walk, being sat in a chair, and then painfully being helped off the stage. I also saw some interviews around that time which were equally painful to watch. And finally Johnny Cash. I "got" what Johnny and Rick Rubin were doing with their collaboration, and it worked for awhile. But Johnny got progressively ill, and the last sessions were basically therapy for him. Sound familiar? That last American Recordings album is painful to listen to.
What's my point? I wonder how many Brian Wilson fans saw the same things I described above, and not only felt sad about it, but also hoped that it wouldn't happen to Brian. And I'll take it one step further, maybe even thinking it just wasn't RIGHT to have these great artists being reduced to, how can I say it, being such sympathetic figures (I'm being kind). I'll stop short of calling those fans hypocritical, but now that Brian is in the same situation, why is it any different? And, because Brian Wilson has mental health issues, it actually makes it worse. Or should make it worse.
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Post by kds on Jan 29, 2020 13:05:52 GMT
I think among legacy artists, you're going to see more examples of that, where artists don't know when to stop. I have mixed feelings on it. In a way, you want to see your heroes bow out triumphantly. To make a sports analogy, you have athletes like John Elway or Ray Lewis, whose careers ended with Super Bowl wins. But, then you have a Rickey Henderson who played until he was about 46 years old, and even tooled around in the minor leagues just because he loved the game so much, even if he was a shell of his former self.
To me, there is no right answer. You'd think that some of these guys would want to sit back and bask in the shadow of yesterday's triumph and enjoy themselves. But, not everybody is wired that way.
On a side note, I'd have to respectfully disagree about Cash, as I really enjoyed American IV. Although the two posthumous releases did leave a little to be desired.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 29, 2020 13:28:13 GMT
On a side note, I'd have to respectfully disagree about Cash, as I really enjoyed American IV. Although the two posthumous releases did leave a little to be desired. I was referring to the two posthumous releases as being hard to listen to. American IV might be my favorite of the series.
And, you're correct. There is no right answer. Not only do the circumstances vary from artist to artist, but it is so subjective. Take Brian Wilson for example. I might think it's not right to be parading him out there on stage. But, at the same time, it can be pointed out that Brian, in addition to himself, has the blessing of his wife, doctors, and physical/occupational therapists. And that doesn't make it right either. Those people could be...wrong, too. Mental heath is not black and white.
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Post by kds on Jan 29, 2020 13:51:18 GMT
On a side note, I'd have to respectfully disagree about Cash, as I really enjoyed American IV. Although the two posthumous releases did leave a little to be desired. I was referring to the two posthumous releases as being hard to listen to. American IV might be my favorite of the series.
And, you're correct. There is no right answer. Not only do the circumstances vary from artist to artist, but it is so subjective. Take Brian Wilson for example. I might think it's not right to be parading him out there on stage. But, at the same time, it can be pointed out that Brian, in addition to himself, has the blessing of his wife, doctors, and physical/occupational therapists. And that doesn't make it right either. Those people could be...wrong, too. Mental heath is not black and white.
Ok, so we're on the same page with Cash then. I'm not even sure if I got American VI. Plus, we fans can speculate all we want, but there's probably a chance that Brian actually goes get more out of going on tour than from sitting in his house watching Wheel of Fortune. We'd love to think that instead of being busy doing nothing or touring the BB greatest hits (while being praised for the same kind of setlists M&B get crapped on for), he'd be in the studio, but the desire and ability to create new music just might not be there any longer. And, as a legacy artist, there's probably a part of him (or his team) that think even if he does create a masterpiece, the majority of fans won't care, they just want to hear California Girls for the umpteenth time.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 31, 2020 16:33:03 GMT
How about this for a twist on the "genius" question (to both reinvigorate the topic and get it back into the positive territory):
What song do you think is the first expression of Brian Wilson's genius? I don't mean "what shows talent?" "Surfin" shows that he could make a song, but let's get serious: there is no genius there. There are stories that he could hum the Marine's hymn as a toddler, but that's not an artifact of genius, just a hint at talent.
What recorded song isn't an indicator that the guy might be good, but is the product of genius / an ingenious product? What makes it so?
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Post by kds on Jan 31, 2020 19:23:14 GMT
Perhaps Catch a Wave. The subtle use of the harp in that song might be the first indication that this isn't just a surf rock band.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 31, 2020 19:52:25 GMT
I don't know if I can name a specific song, but I do think it's the best of the album Surfer Girl. There are several songs there that seem to rise above "hey, cool song!" into "holy shit!" The title track, "Catch a Wave," "The Surfer Moon," "Little Deuce Coupe," "In My Room," and "Hawaii" all, in my opinion, leap out into that territory to some degree or other. Maybe not genius in every case, but getting there.
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Post by kds on Jan 31, 2020 20:30:44 GMT
I don't know if I can name a specific song, but I do think it's the best of the album Surfer Girl. There are several songs there that seem to rise above "hey, cool song!" into "holy shit!" The title track, "Catch a Wave," "The Surfer Moon," "Little Deuce Coupe," "In My Room," and "Hawaii" all, in my opinion, leap out into that territory to some degree or other. Maybe not genius in every case, but getting there. That's the same era I had in mind. Plus, even though Gary Usher wrote the lyrics, In My Room went into more mature themes, and especially stands out on an album where all of the other songs are about surfing or cars.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 31, 2020 22:49:52 GMT
I've delayed a couple of hours in responding to this intriguing question because I'm not sure what is and isn't "genius music". Is it simply great pop music or does it cross over to that magical BW land, a land where nobody has gone before or since. At first I was contemplating "Surfer Girl", "Lonely Sea", and "In My Room", all early timeless classics that helped lay the foundation for my fandom. But are they genius compositions? Hell if I know. I do know that nobody else ever wrote (or produced, arranged, and performed) such moving songs as those, to me anyway.
I also moved ahead slightly into "Don't Worry Baby", "I Get Around", and "California Girls" territory. I even considered "Little Saint Nick" which could be considered pop genius. In my opinion, popular music doesn't get much better than "Little Saint Nick", specifically everything that Brian packed into two minutes.
However, I'm taking the safe route and going to "Wouldn't It Be Nice", "God Only Knows", "Caroline No", and yes, even "Sloop John B". Take your pick but it's on Pet Sounds.
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Post by lonelysummer on Feb 1, 2020 5:00:35 GMT
I'm sitting here pondering all that you guys have said. The only thing I have to contribute is that I think Brian long ago lost the "inspiration" part of creating music - and I would bet he misses those days, the days when he would be driving down the road, or half awake in bed and suddenly get a great idea for a song. I think it's possible for Brian to sit down with a collaborator (not necessarily Mike, lol) and create a song - an average song, a decent song; but is that what we want? No, we want more genius. That's the expectation that greeted Brian's first solo album back in 1988. "Finally he gets to express himself without having to gain the approval of the Beach Boys". Right. Except that now he had to gain the approval of Dr. Landy. In any case, the Wilson/Landy songwriting team <gag> was rather prolific. Two albums plus assorted movie songs, b-sides, etc. Then Brian had another prolific period working with Andy Paley in the 90's. Not that you would know this by looking at the officially released product. And that may be part of the problem for Brian today. So much of what he wrote and recorded in the 80's/90's was deemed unworthy of release. Why should he care about trying to record new music now? His handlers probably won't like it anyway, unless it's filtered through Joe Thomas or Scott Bennett or Darian or ….whoever.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 1, 2020 13:34:51 GMT
I'm sitting here pondering all that you guys have said. The only thing I have to contribute is that I think Brian long ago lost the "inspiration" part of creating music - and I would bet he misses those days, the days when he would be driving down the road, or half awake in bed and suddenly get a great idea for a song. I think it's possible for Brian to sit down with a collaborator (not necessarily Mike, lol) and create a song - an average song, a decent song; but is that what we want? No, we want more genius. That's the expectation that greeted Brian's first solo album back in 1988. "Finally he gets to express himself without having to gain the approval of the Beach Boys". Right. Except that now he had to gain the approval of Dr. Landy. In any case, the Wilson/Landy songwriting team <gag> was rather prolific. Two albums plus assorted movie songs, b-sides, etc. Then Brian had another prolific period working with Andy Paley in the 90's. Not that you would know this by looking at the officially released product. And that may be part of the problem for Brian today. So much of what he wrote and recorded in the 80's/90's was deemed unworthy of release. Why should he care about trying to record new music now? His handlers probably won't like it anyway, unless it's filtered through Joe Thomas or Scott Bennett or Darian or ….whoever. It would be fascinating to hear how Brian feels about songwriting - or music making in general - these days. I say this, not to take a shot at Brian's interviews, but we probably will never find out. That would be a probing question that would require an honest, thoughtful answer. Of course Brian is far removed from the days of wanting to prove himself to his father, competing with his musical peers, getting another elusive hit record, and even making money. But what does motivate somebody like Brian, somebody with nothing to prove as they approach 80 years of age? Simply the love of making music? Hopefully.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 1, 2020 13:52:32 GMT
it's filtered through Joe Thomas or Scott Bennett or Darian or ….whoever. I don't think that "filtered through" is the reality anymore, if it once was.
To me, anyway, "filtered through" implies that Brian Wilson writes something, something whole. Something that exists on its own. And then, presumably because other key figures in the business think it's not commercial, not of the style or times, or just not up to par, they "filter" it through that lens. Maybe they change some words, maybe they change arrangements or production, etc.
Does anyone still think that's the reality?
The issue with collaborators seems more to be that they aren't there as filters, but as creators trying to build something, trying to pull something out of a Brian who just doesn't seem to have anything much left.
"Would you like to work with Mr. Wilson? Great. We'll send you some tapes he's thinking about: there's a few demos from 1981, Proud Mary, his take on a Shortnin' Bread riff on piano, and a Bmin7 chord vamp that goes on four minutes. Let's see what you can do with it. Oh, and we want it about how he has overcome his struggles, really inspirational. Obviously he's going to be listed as writer, arranger, and producer, but you'll get a co-writer credit. No, you aren't going to be working directly with Mr. Wilson. Thanks, we'll talk next week. I've got to go; I've got Sebu on the other line."
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