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Post by kds on Jan 26, 2020 3:25:31 GMT
I don't mean to downplay Brian's mental illness. But, I also feel like that mental illness often gives him a free pass for commercial and artistic missteps, and not just from rabid fans.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 26, 2020 3:41:11 GMT
I don't mean to downplay Brian's mental illness. But, I also feel like that mental illness often gives him a free pass for commercial and artistic missteps, and not just from rabid fans. Absolutely. Brian Wilson is a tragic figure. Brian Wilson is a sympathetic figure. Look at how he is viewed TODAY with his touring. This poor man enters and exits the stage with a walker, he's probably in physical pain, he hears voices onstage, his ears might be ringing, he's trying to keep up with ten musicians at a time, he's trying to read the words off of a teleprompter, he has to interject comments, and he has to occasionally plunk a piano key. Oh, and did I mention he is pushing 80 years old? How could you not feel sorry for the guy? And, that inevitably leads to making excuses - like I just did by listing all of his challenges - and merely making him accountable MANY TIMES for just showing up (see his interviews). How many times have you read the comment "I'm just glad he's alive.." When you get to that stage in your career, yeah, you're gonna get a free pass.
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Post by kds on Jan 26, 2020 3:54:18 GMT
I'm not specifically talking about Brian Wilson in 2020, but some of the mistakes throughout his entire career, going all the way back to the non release of Smile.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 26, 2020 5:31:12 GMT
If this is about other Beach Boys being unfairly blamed or criticized, then I can agree on that point. None of them, including Brian, owed us a note.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 26, 2020 13:42:38 GMT
I'm not specifically talking about Brian Wilson in 2020, but some of the mistakes throughout his entire career, going all the way back to the non release of Smile. Same thing, different challenges. Brian having to do everything - write, produce, record, sing. The record company pressuring him for new singles/albums. Maybe self-imposed pressure to keep up with The Beatles, Spector, to realize his art. The financial future of not just the group but the group's families were now in play. The pressures were getting to him. Increasing drug intake. Mental illness beginning to surface. Marital problems. Do you need anymore? Seriously, I think from Day One, there were always factors in place. How much credence you want to give them is a personal thing.
Hey, I'm with you, probably to a very large extent. I think my posting history will bear that out. I think the excuse-making, while valid in some ways, in many ways, does tend to occasionally go over-the-top, especially in the later years. Nothing - NOTHING - has ever kept Brian Wilson from going into a studio at any time and writing and recording a song. A great song? A hit song? And, like you are saying, some people I guess are saying that he was or is prevented from accomplishing that.
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Post by kds on Jan 26, 2020 14:34:41 GMT
I don't deny Brian was under pressure, and there were plenty of times that the band, or management, did not have his best interests in mind. The ill fated Brian's Back campaign comes to mind.
What I deny are the narratives that Brian never had anything to do with any commercial or artisitic struggles. It was always Mike, the label, or some other boogeyman.
I will say that despite all the bullshit and false narratives and myth around him, I give him a ton of credit for coming out on the other side. Its sometimes forgotten in recent criticisms of live shows, but the fact that he became a touring artist 20 years ago is a near miracle. And, while I stand by my statement of his solo career being a mixed bag, he's released a lot of good later era music.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 26, 2020 17:14:24 GMT
Brief little OT and sappy aside that I like very much how, while this is a small group, the default is that people have nuance and perspective. Not to say people don't have strong feelings (god forbid), but that they almost always are backed by reasonable arguments and don't tie into broad, boring "camps."
Seriously, it's the only place where I've consistently seen that from the majority of posters in my 20 years of BBs message-boarding. Everywhere has had some people who fit that mold, but nowhere has had most people fitting it. Kudos to you all for making it fun.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 26, 2020 19:29:20 GMT
I don't deny Brian was under pressure, and there were plenty of times that the band, or management, did not have his best interests in mind. The ill fated Brian's Back campaign comes to mind. Since you mentioned the Brian's Back campaign, I'm going to beat the proverbial dead horse by piggybacking on one of my own posts.
Like I mentioned above, nothing ever kept Brian Wilson from getting up and walking over to a piano and writing (or trying to write) a great song. If you want to take it the next step, nothing ever kept him from gathering the necessary musicians and recording the song either. For the last 60 years, people were at his beckoned call.
Starting with the Brian's Back campaign in 1976, that's when a lot of the bullsh-- really started to surface. Now, 44 years later, the history books HAVE been written, and they really whitewash the point I'm trying to illustrate.
With 15 Big Ones, yes, the group (and Mike is usually singled out) voted on an oldies/newies concept. However, between the recording of, say "Palisades Park" and "A Casual Look", was there anything keeping Brian from sitting at the piano and composing a great song for the band, and ultimately scratching "TM Song" from the album? Heck, they owned the damn studio.
With the M.I.U. Album, again Mike is mostly blamed for whisking Brian away from Carl and Dennis and supplanting him in some cold college campus. However, when Brian was finished writing those "back to the Beach Boys' basics" songs like "Wontcha Come Out Tonight", what was keeping him from writing something, well, great? Maybe it was Stan and Rocky's fault.
Just one more...Keepin' The Summer Alive. Mike's fault again, right? We know he was a one-man dictatorship, deciding which songs the band would record. Oh, and who wrote the title song with the "Well it's ice cream weather, get the gang back together..." lyrics? Brian was apparently present - and healthy - for some of the sessions. Instead of digging out "When Girls Get Together" from the vaults, why didn't Brian compose a new classic ballad? Who or what was preventing him from doing that? But, all the history books will do is blame others (Bruce, Mike, no Dennis) for that weak album.
And don't even start me on Brian's solo career. New people to blame for Brian's music not living up to his old standards (except for the fans who DO think it was up to his old standards ). Names like Eugene Landy, Joe Thomas, and Walt Disney now enter the pages of the history books. Even old Mike Love gets mentioned for the (in some people's eyes, not mine) failure of No Pier Pressure.
Yeah, it's frustrating at times for BB/BW nuts like me and some other fans. I don't expect it to change. Repeating myself one more time - there is too much unconditional love and sympathy for Brian Wilson, the man and his music, to tell it like it is. Or was.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 26, 2020 22:59:48 GMT
Nothing - NOTHING - has ever kept Brian Wilson from going into a studio at any time and writing and recording a song. I think mental illness has severely impaired his ability to do just that throughout his adult life.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 27, 2020 13:00:24 GMT
Nothing - NOTHING - has ever kept Brian Wilson from going into a studio at any time and writing and recording a song. I think mental illness has severely impaired his ability to do just that throughout his adult life. I think so, too. It’s not a “get out of jail free” pass for everything he has or hasn’t done in his life, but I think it’s entirely reasonable to assume it was a major cause for many of his problems, directly or indirectly.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 28, 2020 14:19:32 GMT
Nothing - NOTHING - has ever kept Brian Wilson from going into a studio at any time and writing and recording a song. I think mental illness has severely impaired his ability to do just that throughout his adult life. Agree. Mental illness is probably the major reason for the dip in quality to varying degrees in Brian's post-1975 music. And, I actually covered my above statement by following up the sentence with "A great song?" and "A hit song?", meaning that I conceded that mental illness affected what ultimately came out, or, again, the quality of the music.
When I used the term "nothing", and even put it in all capitals, I was more referring to outside forces such as record companies, in-group fighting, contracts, disinterest, and other factors that would have a direct affect on Brian's composing. Those are the most common...excuses...if you will. I'm not ignoring mental illness in this list, and I don't want to parse words or meanings, but how much did mental illness prevent Brian from wanting to write or attempting to write, or more to the point, prohibiting him or taking away his ability to simply compose a song. I really don't know.
Post-1975, when mental illness had clearly affected him, Brian was still prolific for a very long time. When did the mental illness really start to slow down his writing, quantity-wise? I realize a lot of it was PR and propaganda, but the stories about doing these amazing things (that only Brian could come up) in the studio continued right through No Pier Pressure. Yes, there were also comments from Brian himself about writer's block, but who knows how much of that was the truth. Was it writer's block or a lack of motivation? Or maybe he was continuing to write, though I doubt it. I guess it doesn't really matter.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 28, 2020 16:12:54 GMT
When I used the term "nothing", and even put it in all capitals, I was more referring to outside forces such as record companies, in-group fighting, contracts, disinterest, and other factors that would have a direct affect on Brian's composing. Those are the most common...excuses...if you will. In regard to outside forces, I agree with you, and I was about 95% sure that that was what you meant. I'm not ignoring mental illness in this list, and I don't want to parse words or meanings, but how much did mental illness prevent Brian from wanting to write or attempting to write, or more to the point, prohibiting him or taking away his ability to simply compose a song. I really don't know. Yeah, none of us know. Brian and his doctors probably don't even know (not for certain, anyway). That's what makes it so hard to discuss, and also why I hesitate to criticize him. Something worth pondering, though, is that lack of interest (in activities previously enjoyed) is one of the most common symptoms of depression. As is lack of energy and trouble focusing/concentrating. I think that's a core problem for Brian, and all the illegal drug use just exasperated it and created additional problems (some, potentially permanent). I think by "Good Vibrations" we see a Brian who is starting to struggle to complete tasks and, frankly, think rationally. From that point forward there are all kinds of stories depicting Brian as acting erratically and, for lack of a better word, weird/strange. When his new music didn't top the charts, it (seemingly) shattered his confidence and motivation (to an irrational extent). These are just a few ways in which his deteriorating mental health prevented him from writing, recording, and releasing music. So, yes, I think by the early '70s, Brian's psychological problems kept him from even attempting to write music, on a regular basis. That said, I think completing songs (both compositionally and the recording of) was the greater problem. I don't think that "spark" of genius ever left. There are many stories of Brian, during his worst days in the '70s, sitting at the piano and entertaining people. But, that's not the same thing as writing and recording something new. And, I imagine those were good days (like the 3 good days he apparently had during the recording of KTSA), but what about all the bad days? Post-1975, when mental illness had clearly affected him, Brian was still prolific for a very long time. When did the mental illness really start to slow down his writing, quantity-wise? I realize a lot of it was PR and propaganda, but the stories about doing these amazing things (that only Brian could come up) in the studio continued right through No Pier Pressure. Yes, there were also comments from Brian himself about writer's block, but who knows how much of that was the truth. Was it writer's block or a lack of motivation? Or maybe he was continuing to write, though I doubt it. I guess it doesn't really matter.
As previously mentioned, I think mental illness started affecting Brian in the mid '60s. Some fans think that Brian's panic attack on the plane was a "put-on". Hey, I wasn't there, but I seriously doubt that. Do I think he may have used it as an excuse, after the fact? Sure, that's possible. In fact, it's natural. That's how most people respond to anxiety - with avoidance. And, most people just get tired of touring. Bottom line, I see it as evidence that mental illness was already starting to affect his ability to work as a musician. Moving forward, I disagree that Brian continued to be prolific post-1975 (or in my estimation post-1969). If it weren't for Landy we wouldn't have LY or BW88. We probably wouldn't have 15BO, A/C, and SI either. As for writer's block or a lack of motivation? I imagine they feed off each other. Does it matter? Not NEARLY as much as the music he has given us, but I think it's worth thinking about.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 28, 2020 16:58:29 GMT
Once we establish that mental illness was a factor in the decreasing quality and quantity of his work, I think we’re at an impasse in terms of trying to quantify it compared to other factors. All we can do is listen to / read other people’s stories from those times and take them with the grains of salt each individual’s perspective is bound to contribute. Part of the reason it is so hard to quantify is, the various factors almost certainly feed into one another, and it’s not always obvious which direction that went. Let’s just throw a laundry list of potential factors in his diminishment out there: mental illness (including anxiety and depression on the milder end and hallucinations on the dramatic end), drug abuse, laziness, insecurity/lack of confidence, fear of flying/travel, strained relationship with father, bad marriage, strained relationships with various bandmates, inability to relate to changing music/cultural scene… Mental illness of some sort could cause or exacerbate many of these, and many of these could trigger or exacerbate mental illness. And then even some of the old favorites in terms of the blame game—e.g., the band didn’t understand or support him—well, those make sense in this context. You try dealing with a seriously mentally ill person. At first, we would all say “oh, of course I’d support him!” But that’s from afar, and after the fact. Think of it in the context of a talented bandmate (brother/cousin/friend) who has as far as you can tell gone crazy, stopped trying, become entirely unreliable, begun hanging out with people you don’t know, like, or trust, and is overdoing his drug and alcohol abuse to the point that he seems he could die. (And, oh yeah, speaking of that, he dug his own grave in the backyard.) I think in the 60s and 70s, those kinds of issues would infuriate many people, and even today, sympathetic or not, most or many of us would find our relationships strained under those conditions. If that’s the case, then, is it fair to say part of Brian’s artistic struggles were that the band didn’t support him? Sure, probably. But is part of the reason the band didn’t support him Brian’s own behavior? Sure, probably. But isn’t part of his behavior his mental illness? Sure, probably. But isn’t his mental illness possibly partly stemming from his drug use, or his family problems? Sure, probably. And so on. Everything fed into everything else. But in the modern era, I think Brian Wilson’s inability or unwillingness to write and record more good music is that he’s an old man whose era is long gone. The wells of genius might be deep, but they’re not bottomless. Like most or all of his living counterparts, his time has simply passed, for the most part. He wrote a ton of great stuff. It’s hard to keep writing great stuff. The odds of continuing to innovate and commercially succeed across decades are infinitesimal. It would be a bigger and more amazing story if he had kept it up; not that he has dropped off.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 28, 2020 17:11:17 GMT
Very well illustrated, Kapitan.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 28, 2020 18:57:30 GMT
But in the modern era, I think Brian Wilson’s inability or unwillingness to write and record more good music is that he’s an old man whose era is long gone. The wells of genius might be deep, but they’re not bottomless. Like most or all of his living counterparts, his time has simply passed, for the most part. He wrote a ton of great stuff. It’s hard to keep writing great stuff. The odds of continuing to innovate and commercially succeed across decades are infinitesimal. It would be a bigger and more amazing story if he had kept it up; not that he has dropped off. I definitely agree with that. And, it was that argument, well, it became an argument, that led to a lot of the turmoil on the Smiley Smile forum (among other things) and personally got me into trouble. I did/do believe that Brian's better days were/are behind him, and I stated so in several posts. Usually the debate was about Brian's reliance on his collaborators, and that the final product we were hearing was becoming more and more collaborator-driven and less Brian Wilson-influenced. For obvious reasons, I couldn't just come out and say, "Hey, we all know that Brian Wilson is mentally ill to the extent that he can't carry an entire album anymore and should reunite with The Beach Boys blah blah blah..." or "I hear more Joe Thomas in that production than Brian Wilson because Brian no longer has it in him to produce like that blah blah blah..." And, then the shit hit the fan. The other members and especially the moderators didn't want to hear it. How dare you say those things about Brian Wilson! How dare you say that he didn't write that! How dare you say that his wifeandmanagers are deceiving us and calling the shots! Well, we all know where that forum went from there. It was no longer tolerable to criticize Brian Wilson in any way, even in intelligent discussions like we are having here.
I didn't mean to get that far off track and go back to those dark days, and that particular forum was one of the worst perpetrators in trying to keep the myth alive, and not just with the recording aspect, but touring, interviewing, and making decisions for himself. So many times I'll be reading an interview or an article featuring Brian, and the interviewer/author just keeps referring to Brian as a genius (in the present tense) as if he continued to write this timeless music, and continues to come up with this brilliant music, when in reality, that "genius music" stopped a long time ago. It's no fun stating the obvious about somebody like Brian who has given us so much musical happiness. Sometimes the truth hurts.
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