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Post by kds on Feb 5, 2020 15:47:18 GMT
But only as far as the "concept" went, or more specifically the lyrics. Some of those early albums were still short, some very good songs stayed in the can, and, heck, they even repeated some songs on albums! Sure, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t embrace or respect the form, just that their execution was poor. I think its a little of both really.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 5, 2020 16:29:22 GMT
Another way to think about this might be this: what does it mean to focus on the album (as opposed to “just” the songs)? One way is the subject matter, the theme. This is what Mike focused on with Still Cruisin’, or what the band/label did with their pre-Pet Sounds ones I mentioned earlier. A completely different way to think about the album is what Brian has been quoted as when he discussed Rubber Soul and his approach to Pet Sounds. While Pet Sounds has been referred to as a concept album—in other words the approach mentioned above—Brian’s approach to that album wasn’t about the concept at all. It was about having a collection of really strong songs as opposed to a few singles and filler. A third way is musical cohesion. Not necessarily anything about subject matter of the songs or about 10-12 really strong songs, but having a sonic experience that holds everything together. Similar instrumentation, similar recording techniques, similar production, and so on. This is where Pet Sounds and Smile may sound of a piece—and even Sunflower might fit in this category—but something like 20/20 doesn’t because those songs obviously weren’t conceived of or recorded as “an album.” It’s got things spanning several years and wildly different styles and sounds. Anyway, just some more thoughts on the topic.
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Post by B.E. on Feb 5, 2020 17:01:31 GMT
Another way to think about this might be this: what does it mean to focus on the album (as opposed to “just” the songs)? One way is the subject matter, the theme. This is what Mike focused on with Still Cruisin’, or what the band/label did with their pre-Pet Sounds ones I mentioned earlier. A completely different way to think about the album is what Brian has been quoted as when he discussed Rubber Soul and his approach to Pet Sounds. While Pet Sounds has been referred to as a concept album—in other words the approach mentioned above—Brian’s approach to that album wasn’t about the concept at all. It was about having a collection of really strong songs as opposed to a few singles and filler. A third way is musical cohesion. Not necessarily anything about subject matter of the songs or about 10-12 really strong songs, but having a sonic experience that holds everything together. Similar instrumentation, similar recording techniques, similar production, and so on. This is where Pet Sounds and Smile may sound of a piece—and even Sunflower might fit in this category—but something like 20/20 doesn’t because those songs obviously weren’t conceived of or recorded as “an album.” It’s got things spanning several years and wildly different styles and sounds. I should probably give this a few minutes of thought myself, but let me ask you guys... How many Beach Boys albums meet more than one of those 3 criteria? I think Party! certainly does (Criteria #1 and #3).
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Post by kds on Feb 5, 2020 18:45:26 GMT
Interesting ranking with That's Why God Made The Radio AHEAD OF SMiLE, Summer Days (And Summer Nights), and All Summer Long. If I remember correctly, I think you're a fairly young and new BB fan. Does the newness of the album (and probably your first NEW BB album) influence your ranking? I'd say it's definitely played a role. I know I've mentioned it before, but it was like a dream come true hearing they reunited. Carl died when I was not much more than two years old, so I never got to experience *the* Beach Boys. Finding out they were making an album of new music was icing on the cake. I also legitimately thought it was a good album and for me, From There to Back Again ranks right up there with the other Beach Boy classics. I remember when the SS forum did the survivor game, it ended up being ranked as one of their top three or four songs. Not sure I'd put it that high, but you get the idea. TWGMTR is one of the few albums I find myself always going back to listen to from start to finish. Smile is almost at the opposite end of the spectrum. Everyone had been waiting decades for it to be released, but when I became interested in the band, the entire sessions had already been released, not to mention BWPS. I was already familiar with the songs through other albums, so I was like, what's the big deal, it's still not finished? I've also never really been into reconstructing the album and doing what ifs, beyond what would have happened if it was released in January 1967. I think From There To Back Again might be the best BB song since Til I Die, and definitely one of the major reasons TWGMTR cracks my top ten.
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Post by B.E. on Feb 5, 2020 18:55:19 GMT
Okay, I gave it more thought. Here's an exhaustive list. I tried to be fairly strict and focused less on intent and more on execution.
Criteria #1: Little Deuce Coupe, Christmas Album, Party, Stack-o-Tracks. Possibly: Surfin' Safari, All Summer Long, Pet Sounds, and Surf's Up.
Criteria #2: Pet Sounds. Possibly: Little Deuce Coupe
Criteria #3: Surfin' Safari, Party, Pet Sounds, Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, Holland, BB85, SiP
So, to answer my own question, I think Surfin' Safari, Little Deuce Coupe, Party, and Pet Sounds are up for consideration.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 5, 2020 23:20:49 GMT
Another way to think about this might be this: what does it mean to focus on the album (as opposed to “just” the songs)? A completely different way to think about the album is what Brian has been quoted as when he discussed Rubber Soul and his approach to Pet Sounds. While Pet Sounds has been referred to as a concept album—in other words the approach mentioned above—Brian’s approach to that album wasn’t about the concept at all. It was about having a collection of really strong songs as opposed to a few singles and filler. This would've been my preference, for two reasons.
First, the MORE stronger music the better. Brian had a sufficient amount of quality material to make the albums stronger and longer. And in the later years, with five or six different Beach Boys contributing songs, there SHOULD'VE been more than enough music. Yes, longer doesn't always mean better, but I like the odds. More songs to get into. Different styles of songs to get into. More highlighting of the band members. A feeling that the group is really giving you something, that THEY were really into it. More bang for the buck. Bigger is usually better for me, but that's just a personal opinion.
The second reason kind of piggybacks on the first reason. Especially with the post-1968 albums, you had several band members contributing songs. With the different styles of writing, different styles of lyric writing, different vocal styles, and just basic differences among the band members, it would make it more difficult to record theme or concept albums, as opposed to a collection of songs. Now, the band did have some success in achieving that, a unified sound and style on some of their albums, but then they skimped on the number of songs. On very few BB albums did we get the best of both worlds.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 5, 2020 23:23:52 GMT
I'm with you. The idea that to be a good album, you must have a concept album, is one that I think pollutes people's thinking and has been to Brian Wilson's detriment. What makes a great album is an album's worth of really good-to-great songs, first of all. (I'd say sonic cohesion is really helpful, too.) Anything else is fine, but it's just window dressing at that point.
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Post by B.E. on Feb 6, 2020 1:43:50 GMT
A third way is musical cohesion. Not necessarily anything about subject matter of the songs or about 10-12 really strong songs, but having a sonic experience that holds everything together. Similar instrumentation, similar recording techniques, similar production, and so on. This is where Pet Sounds and Smile may sound of a piece—and even Sunflower might fit in this category—but something like 20/20 doesn’t because those songs obviously weren’t conceived of or recorded as “an album.” It’s got things spanning several years and wildly different styles and sounds. This gets my vote. The 'Pet Sounds' approach would cut their catalogue in half, at a minimum. Give me everything, just take great(er) care in its presentation. It's inevitable that songs are going to vary in quality. (And we aren't going to agree on the quality.)
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Post by lonelysummer on Feb 6, 2020 2:31:57 GMT
I really don't mind the short albums. There may have been a time I would have felt differently, but one thing the cd age brought us was artists saying "I don't have to deal with the limitations of vinyl and how much music one record can hold -therefore, i'm going to include everything I've recorded since the last album!" And I fall asleep halfway through listening....
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Post by B.E. on Feb 6, 2020 2:44:02 GMT
I really don't mind the short albums. There may have been a time I would have felt differently, but one thing the cd age brought us was artists saying "I don't have to deal with the limitations of vinyl and how much music one record can hold -therefore, i'm going to include everything I've recorded since the last album!" And I fall asleep halfway through listening.... I've noticed in recent years that 32-35 minutes or so seems to be my preference. The longer it gets the less likely I'll have time to listen to it, and even if I do have time, I'll often lose attention (regardless of how great the music is). I've actually gotten into the habit of checking the length before listening.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 6, 2020 13:31:50 GMT
Some album running times:
Surfer Girl - 25:30 Little Deuce Coupe - 25:25 All Summer Long - 25:10 Summer Days (And Summer Nights) - 26:42 Wild Honey - 23:58 Friends - 25:32
I think one of the consolations of these relatively short albums was that, in those days, you didn't have to wait very long for the next release. Usually the time between albums was just a matter of months. However, if you are comparing The Beach Boys to other all-time great groups like The Beatles (which is a popular debate), or ranking Beach Boys' albums against other great albums, I think you have to give some serious weight to the short running times. Just an additional good/great song or two - and history has shown that they were recorded - would've increased the running time to a more respectable 30:00, and elevated these albums by an entire grade (see the Alternate Albums And Favorite Playlists thread ).
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 6, 2020 13:36:53 GMT
I'm a shorter-album (and shorter-song) kind of guy, as I've harped on about enough in the past and so I won't go on now. I'm sure if I were to average out the running times of my 10 favorite albums, we'd see something like 35, 37 minutes. If someone has more quality material than that, great, let's hear it. But more often than not, longer albums and songs seem like they were targeted as ideal length, regardless of the demands of the actual music. (Three more choruses in the outro! A meandering, boring blues solo! Skits between songs!)
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Post by kds on Feb 6, 2020 13:38:57 GMT
In general, I like an album in the 30-45 minute range, but I'm fine with it going over that time if the material warrants it.
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Post by lonelysummer on Feb 7, 2020 6:01:05 GMT
Now. having spoke in favor of short albums, i'll admit i'm a Bob Dylan fan, and in the old days of putting two albums on a C-90 cassette, he was one artist that always messed that up for me! A lot of his albums are in the 50-55 minute range. But his material is strong enough to hold my interest for a whole hour. The way the Beach Boys were expected to crank out albums in the mid 60's - 3 albums in 63, 4 albums in 64, 3 albums in 65 - I can't really fault them or Capitol for using some tracks on more than one album, or concocting things like "Bull Session with Big Daddy". Can you imagine if they had done the same with Beatles albums? Those Christmas messages they recorded for the fan club were not unlike some of the BB's spoken word tracks. I'd also like to offer a little praise for the format known as the 45, the single. Especially the short, concise 2 and a half minute single. Somewhere along the way...late 60's? early 70's? even singles were expected to break the 3 and a half or 4 minute mark; some of those songs could have been cut in half and not lost anything. "Happy Endings" by the the Beach Boys & Little Richard comes to mind. It was never gonna be their greatest record, but the last 2 minutes of the track adds nothing - just a long sax solo, and a lot of 'bring 'em back, bring 'em back's. Elton John had a lot of records like that - "Bennie and the Jets" is a neat little tune, nice chord changes, but the last two minutes of the record is just him singing 'Bennie, Bennie, Bennie, Bennie, Bennie and the Jets' over and over. Same with "Honky Cat" - nice tune, nice piano playing, horns, but the song has said what it had to say without all the 'get that, get that, get that, get that honky cat, wo!'s at the end. Now go back and listen to those classic Beach Boys or Beatles or Everly Brothers singles - sometimes there wasn't even a lead guitar break.
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Post by kds on Feb 7, 2020 13:11:40 GMT
Ah, yes, the C90 cassette tapes. When I first got a car, I bought a bunch of those to transfer various Floyd and Queen albums over to cassettes to listen to on my commutes.
For great songs, I don't think there's really a set rule for length. The early Beatles and Beach Boys songs are barely too minutes. Yet something like Won't Get Fooled Again warrants 8 plus, or Supper's Ready, Echoes, etc go even further.
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