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Post by kds on Oct 27, 2022 18:45:13 GMT
If the list of Ultimate Classic Rock's best "final" albums wasn't confusing enough, here is their list of most underrated albums. ultimateclassicrock.com/underrated-rock-albums/Their criteria for "underrated" seems to be quite vague. I'd have never expected to see Let It Be on here. Definitely not Deep Purple's Burn, which is pretty highly regarded in their catalog. And Iron Maiden's Seventh Son of a Seventh Son might be the biggest head scratcher as that's one of their most revered albums. Also interesting that some of the album covers featured in the top graphic (most notably Queen's Hot Space) are not on the list. Queen is represented by....Jazz?
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 27, 2022 19:19:54 GMT
Wow, yeah, some of those are pretty odd choices. But I suppose that's the thing about terms like underrated (or overrated). An album can be generally considered garbage, or not known at all, but actually be mediocre--thus VERY underrated! Seeing any Zeppelin or Beatles studio album, even Presence and Let It Be, on this kind of list is somewhat silly. Albums like Presence, or Queen's Jazz, were admittedly not up to their predecessors' numbers, but were platinum albums! Jazz had "Fat Bottomed Girls," "Bicycle Race," and "Don't Stop Me Now"!
It's almost like they largely just took all the biggest bands and chose one album each.
I'm also curious what percentage of these got 4+ stars from AllMusic, for example. I'd bet at least 15-20% of them. Underrated 4.5-star albums!?
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Post by kds on Oct 27, 2022 19:26:08 GMT
They probably should've called the article
"Here's one album from just about every big classic rock band that's not regarded as an essential album."
Also, in terms of "underrated" albums, I feel like they could've picked quite a few Beach Boys albums, but they didn't make the list.
I remember years ago, Classic Rock Magazine did a list of albums they considered "underrated" and it was mostly albums that legitimate don't get a lot of love. Music from the Elder and Hot Space were featured. Albums from later, perhaps fractured versions of classic bands. Or albums that are generally rather obscure for a big band. Pink Floyd's Obscured by Clouds comes to mind. Even Floyd has mostly ignored that album since 1972.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 4, 2023 18:10:10 GMT
Anybody in the mood to bitch about a new Rolling Stone list? The 200 Best Singers of All Time is, as you might guess, shit. But I guess they got what they wanted out of it, which was me clicking and linking and talking about it. But seriously, Brian Wilson in the 50s while Kurt Cobain is #36? Ariana Grande a few spots above Ella Fitzgerald, Mavis Staples, and Linda Ronstadt!? Bob Dylan is #15 ... as a singer (which is several spots above Frank Sinatra)? John Lennon at #12 with Paul McCartney at #26?
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Post by kds on Jan 4, 2023 18:25:39 GMT
I heard about it, but when I heard it included Cobain and Eddie Vedder fairly highly, I knew I didn't need to give RS the click.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 5, 2023 0:45:52 GMT
Anybody in the mood to bitch about a new Rolling Stone list? The 200 Best Singers of All Time is, as you might guess, shit. But I guess they got what they wanted out of it, which was me clicking and linking and talking about it. But seriously, Brian Wilson in the 50s while Kurt Cobain is #36? Ariana Grande a few spots above Ella Fitzgerald, Mavis Staples, and Linda Ronstadt!? Bob Dylan is #15 ... as a singer (which is several spots above Frank Sinatra)? John Lennon at #12 with Paul McCartney at #26? I tried to get through it but I couldn't. I was getting too frustrated. I did check the Top 20 though. I looked for Jim Morrison but couldn't find him. Anybody know where he placed?
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 5, 2023 14:14:52 GMT
Anybody in the mood to bitch about a new Rolling Stone list? The 200 Best Singers of All Time is, as you might guess, shit. But I guess they got what they wanted out of it, which was me clicking and linking and talking about it. But seriously, Brian Wilson in the 50s while Kurt Cobain is #36? Ariana Grande a few spots above Ella Fitzgerald, Mavis Staples, and Linda Ronstadt!? Bob Dylan is #15 ... as a singer (which is several spots above Frank Sinatra)? John Lennon at #12 with Paul McCartney at #26? I tried to get through it but I couldn't. I was getting too frustrated. I did check the Top 20 though. I looked for Jim Morrison but couldn't find him. Anybody know where he placed? Nobody outside the Rolling Stone editorial staff knows, because unless I missed it, Jim Morrison is not among the Top 200. I scanned the whole list this morning. I'm not a big fan of Morrison's voice, but especially considering at the intro to the list they clarified that this wasn't just about technical vocal ability but delivery (i.e., charisma, presentation), that omission is absurd. But the list is almost like an anti-traditional Rolling Stone list. What once was the magazine of a certain set of white male classic rawk is clearly going out of its way to promote anything outside that old canon. As evidenced by Robert Plant being in the 60s somewhere but not a lot else from, say, 1965 to 1980 classic rock, unless the singer is gay or female or maybe from a nontraditional subgenre. It's so boring a "correction." Here's an idea: just try to actually answer the question/puzzle without inserting "the right thing to do." Of course it's true that rock journalism was sexist, racist, homophobic, etc., for decades. Nobody with half a brain would argue that. But that doesn't mean the old canon is irrelevant, either.
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Post by kds on Jan 5, 2023 14:25:07 GMT
If they're looking to overcorrect years of bias towards white male rock singers, then it's very surprising that the list did not include Celine Dion. I happened to see a blurb where some of her fans were pretty upset at her exclusion. And, I really feel like this is the type of stuff RS wanted. Music fans getting pissed off and reading articles about how Singer X was left off.
I haven't confirmed it, but I think Ronnie James Dio was also excluded based on another blurb I saw.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 5, 2023 14:32:49 GMT
If they're looking to overcorrect years of bias towards white male rock singers, then it's very surprising that the list did not include Celine Dion. I happened to see a blurb where some of her fans were pretty upset at her exclusion. And, I really feel like this is the type of stuff RS wanted. Music fans getting pissed off and reading articles about how Singer X was left off. I haven't confirmed it, but I think Ronnie James Dio was also excluded based on another blurb I saw. Nope, he's in there. I made a mental note when I saw him. I want to say it was in the lower quartile somewhere, maybe 160 or 180 or something. Off the top of my head, the hard rock/metal singers included were these, in the order they appeared: Glenn Danzig Ronnie James Dio Ozzy Osbourne Rob Halford Robert Plant Axl Rose
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Post by kds on Jan 5, 2023 14:58:54 GMT
If they're looking to overcorrect years of bias towards white male rock singers, then it's very surprising that the list did not include Celine Dion. I happened to see a blurb where some of her fans were pretty upset at her exclusion. And, I really feel like this is the type of stuff RS wanted. Music fans getting pissed off and reading articles about how Singer X was left off. I haven't confirmed it, but I think Ronnie James Dio was also excluded based on another blurb I saw. Nope, he's in there. I made a mental note when I saw him. I want to say it was in the lower quartile somewhere, maybe 160 or 180 or something. Off the top of my head, the hard rock/metal singers included were these, in the order they appeared: Glenn Danzig Ronnie James Dio Ozzy Osbourne Rob Halford Robert Plant Axl Rose Including Dio at least shows they don't have their heads too far up their arses. Although, unfortunately, I think his death in 2010 helped get him a little more notoriety. But, that tends to be how it works.
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Post by kds on Jan 5, 2023 17:45:33 GMT
I saw the list posted on another site. Billie Eilish cracked the list (198).
Done
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 5, 2023 18:08:47 GMT
I saw the list posted on another site. Billie Eilish cracked the list (198). Done You've got to admit she's among the top 200 whisperers, though! I also thought it was funny that they made a point of the whole "not just technical ability, but delivery," etc. ... and then put MARIAH FUCKING CAREY in the top 10, and had Christina Aguilera on the list. These are two of the poster children for bad taste, over-delivery, showy theatrics, etc. And then there are other singers who are technically terrible (like Rihanna) they describe as being brilliant. There are just so many absurd choices, I keep saying it isn't worth even thinking twice about. But yet I've glanced at it a few times.
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Post by kds on Jan 5, 2023 19:02:25 GMT
I saw the list posted on another site. Billie Eilish cracked the list (198). Done You've got to admit she's among the top 200 whisperers, though! I also thought it was funny that they made a point of the whole "not just technical ability, but delivery," etc. ... and then put MARIAH FUCKING CAREY in the top 10, and had Christina Aguilera on the list. These are two of the poster children for bad taste, over-delivery, showy theatrics, etc. And then there are other singers who are technically terrible (like Rihanna) they describe as being brilliant. There are just so many absurd choices, I keep saying it isn't worth even thinking twice about. But yet I've glanced at it a few times. I did see the complete list, while still denying RS a click, so that's mildly satisfying. A couple takeaways. In addition to your take on Carey and Aguilera, which I agree with, I'll also add Kelly Clarkson, who is on the lower end. Having Bob Dylan (15) just behind Freddie Mercury (14) is beyond absurd. How can you have Rob Halford, but not Bruce Dickinson. Halford might have that higher octave, but I think Bruce is overall a better singer. If Lana Del Ray's on the list, where's Zooey Daschunel? Lana makes Zooey sound like Aretha Franklin. Piggybacking on your saying that Rolling Stone's lists of late tend to be over corrections from past bias towards white male rock singer, the entire Top 10 (top 11 actually) are non caucasian.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 5, 2023 19:32:18 GMT
Oh yeah, Lana Del Rey was one I meant to bring up: that's absurd, she barely sings at all. Terrible singer, her music is all mood. (I like some of it ... but it's all about the mood.)
The top ten didn't escape me, either. I'm not quibbling about how great most of those 10 singers are--I think Carey is the only one in that batch I'd argue vehemently against--but you can't help but notice it. It strikes me as pandering, which isn't a lot better than omitting in the first place...
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 17, 2023 12:59:35 GMT
I referenced this in the on-topic forum for the section on the Beach Boys, but for more general discussion, I thought I'd post Saturday Evening Post's new article, " Who is the Greatest American Rock Band?" Something writer Troy Brownfield did that I like is first lay out some challenges associated with this kind of exercise. That's something anyone who has argued about such things in bars, living rooms, or online knows perfectly well: what IS a rock band (or even what is rock, and what is a band)? What is American? What is greatest? I realize that can be tedious from some people's perspectives, but the results can vary wildly depending on how one approaches the question(s)! (Think about how the inclusion or exclusion of Prince, Bob Dylan, Sly and the Family Stone, or Bruce Springsteen depend on such questions.) And so ... spoiler alert, Brownfield didn't pick anyone. Here is his conclusion.
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