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Post by Kapitan on Oct 14, 2019 19:15:28 GMT
So we’ve discussed the missed opportunities of the band, oh, about ten thousand times over the years. A few of those have been either Brian Wilson leaving or being held out of the band after the ’85 album and then the post-Stars and Stripes failure to do new materials followed immediately by the near complete dissolution of the band as a creative force with the death of Carl Wilson and the exits of Brian (again) and Al Jardine. My question is a slightly different spin on the usual ones. Namely, what do you think might have been the best-case realistic scenario in either of those eras had they hung together? I think that, unlike after the non-appearance of Smile or some of their earlier blown opportunities, there was almost certainly no massive popularity (as a currently creative band) anymore in either of those eras … but certainly there could have been something better than what occurred. What does that “something better” look like?
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 14, 2019 22:35:27 GMT
I think when Brian Wilson retreated or took a much less active role in the band after Friends, the group did what was best under the circumstances. Or maybe they didn't really have a choice. The Beach Boys - with 20/20, Sunflower, Surf's Up, and Holland - either intentionally or unintentionally adopted a team concept in assembling their albums. All of the members were contributing songs, some members more than others, but I think they were really trying to "spread the wealth" and give everybody a chance to shine. I also think it's fair to say those albums were pretty strong, and did succeed in highlighting everyone (with a few exceptions).
After the success of Endless Summer/Spirit Of America, and briefly from 1976-1980, for various reasons, the group abandoned that team concept. While I'm glad that Love You was "Brian's baby" because he was in a creative cycle and had a lot music to get off his chest, some of the other albums like 15 Big Ones, M.I.U., L.A. Light Album, and to some extent Keepin' The Summer Alive suffered from a lack of some members' involvement. Dennis had so many good songs that DIDN'T appear on 15 Big Ones, M.I.U., or Keepin' The Summer Alive. Carl wasn't exactly prominent on Love You and was largely absent on M.I.U. Bruce came back and offered one new/old song with "Endless Harmony". In my opinion, L.A. (Light Album) was more...assembled...than being a real team album. Brian was basically absent. It wasn't so long ago from the years 1969-73. Where was the next Sunflower?
To directly answer the thread's question, I think the best-case scenario would've been, first, selecting a better producer, the right producer. I don't think Brian Wilson, Bruce Johnston, Steve Levine, or Terry Melcher were the right producers. I do think Joe Thomas would've been. But there probably were better producers than Joe Thomas out there. The Beach Boys had no competent manager to make or aid in that decision, and the band obviously couldn't make the decision on their own.
Second, and I know it sounds so simple, probably over-simplified, but I would've requested, asked for, demanded (?) the best songs from EVERY MEMBER at the time of the recording of the album. I would've left as many slots open for Brian's songs, and filled in the gaps with the other guys' compositions. But only the best songs. Again, you'd need a strong manager to get involved in that. But look at some of the crap that made the final cuts and some of the better songs that remained in the can. Unacceptable. Does anybody remember Sunflower?
Third, I would've given the listener, the fans - old and new - more bang for their buck. Look at these dwindling numbers. 15 Big Ones had 15 songs, Love You had 14, M.I.U. was down to 12, L.A. (Light Album) had only 10, as did Keepin' The Summer Alive. Still Cruisin' only had 5! Come on, so few songs from a band with six songwriters, and many of the songs were recorded several years prior. I never understood why The Beach Boys could never settle on a manager, a competent manager, who would simply say, "OK, team. We have an album to record. I want to make it the strongest album possible. We're having a session tomorrow (or whenever). Please bring your best songs. Thank you." Pretty naive of me, huh?
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 14, 2019 23:24:29 GMT
After the success of Endless Summer/Spirit Of America, and briefly from 1976-1980, for various reasons, the group abandoned that team concept. While I'm glad that Love You was "Brian's baby" because he was in a creative cycle and had a lot music to get off his chest, some of the other albums like 15 Big Ones, M.I.U., L.A. Light Album, and to some extent Keepin' The Summer Alive suffered from a lack of some members' involvement. Dennis had so many good songs that DIDN'T appear on 15 Big Ones, M.I.U., or Keepin' The Summer Alive. Carl wasn't exactly prominent on Love You and was largely absent on M.I.U. Bruce came back and offered on new/old song with "Endless Harmony". In my opinion, L.A. (Light Album) was more...assembled...than being a real team album. Brian was basically absent. It wasn't so long ago from the years 1969-73. Where was the next Sunflower?
It's funny, because Mike argued basically the opposite in his 1992 Goldmine interview, specifically in response to a question about MIU. He claimed it was "too democratic." Granted, the thrust of his argument was that when albums are democratic for democracy's sake, any coherence the album might have had is lost. (Well, he also argued that he knew the strengths and weaknesses of the others better than they did, which is, uh, confident.)
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 14, 2019 23:26:44 GMT
With all your comments in mind, though, SJS, what do you think would have been the best-case scenario in, say, 1988 or 1998 from a united Beach Boys? Are we talking respect and critical recognition a la That's Why God Made the Radio?
That tends to be my guess: the best it could have been would have been a McCartney-like balance between semi-regular new material with big-money tours that rely almost exclusively on the old hits.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 14, 2019 23:59:02 GMT
First of all, I read that Mike interview before and I never understood where he was coming from. Obviously I disagree with his views on M.I.U. "Everybody almost coming into it with their song..." Huh? Where was a Dennis-composed song? Or a Carl-composed song? Hell, Ron Altbach probably wrote "She's Got Rhythm", and "Winds Of Change" was written by outsiders. After the 15 Big Ones debacle and Love You almost being a BW solo album, M.I.U. was the perfect opportunity to heal some wounds, come together as a group, and let each member shine - again. Oh, well...
I never understood why it was so hard for this band to assemble the absolute best 13-14 songs including contributions from each member and record a damn album. There always appeared to be some...obstacles. For years they either owned a home studio (at Brian's house) or owned/operated Brother Studio. At least they should've been comfortable with the surroundings. Brian only has a couple of songs? OK, Dennis what do you have? Mike has two or three songs? Al what do you have? Carl, what new song(s) have you written? Bruce, I know you've been writing. Jeez, how hard is that? And many times they did record an overabundance of material. They just had no idea which songs to put on the album.
In specifically addressing the 1988-89 time frame, I'm assuming "Kokomo" already hit. This was a no-brainer. After Landy alienated almost all of Brian's contacts in the industry, it appeared that Sweet Insanity wasn't happening. Again, if they would've had a competent - or any - manager, he should've negotiated to make those Sweet Insanity songs Beach Boys' songs. I would've taken a handful of the strongest Sweet Insanity songs (and some of them had potential), pair them up with a new B.Wilson - M. Love song or two, and, again, pool Carl, Al, and Bruce for any new material. It would've resulted in a Brian Wilson-led "team" album. Maybe release a single with the familiar Mike Love voice. Carl and Al were singing very well and I would've utilized their voices substantially.
They had a golden opportunity laid right in their lap. They were coming off a Number 1 single, a successful soundtrack album appearance, they were recently inducted into the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame, they recently received a Lifetime Achievement Award at the American Music Awards, and they had their own nationally syndicated TV show. And what did they come up with? Still Cruisin'.
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Post by Kapitan on Oct 15, 2019 0:20:50 GMT
A golden opportunity, though? Really GOLDEN? I'm talking results: how big could your hypothetical album have really been in the late '80s? Do you agree with my Macca-style best-case scenario? Or do you have some other comparison in mind?
I don't think they'd have had much of a shot at true superstardom again, at popularity among the younger generation of the era. Too, um, not visually appealing, to put it nicely. "Kokomo" was a one-off in that regard.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 15, 2019 0:44:48 GMT
No, they never would've been as big or resembled a McCartney-like scenario. With the trifecta of Smiley Smile/Wild Honey/Friends, the Beach Boys forfeited their right to mass appeal. They were given a second chance with the success of Endless Summer and Spirit Of America, but then they blew that opportunity with the trifecta of 15 Big Ones/Love You/M.I.U. Album. Paul McCartney is such a different animal. He would never go away. You wanna talk about legacy. Paul's was/is indestructible. He had his low points, of course, but it didn't take much to get him back in the spotlight and another No. 1 album, and that's exactly how he proceeded through the decades.
Yes, I think 1988-89 was a golden opportunity. Besides all of the things I mentioned above that were coming together at about the same time, the one thing I didn't mention was the Brian Wilson-as-genius trump card. Remember, Brian's reputation in 1988-89 was still huge. Not only that, he "looked" the part, too, after Landy sculpted him physically. Brian was still a huge draw. He was still EXPECTED to create genius music, though that would change with each successive solo album. If the Beach Boys would've followed up "Kokomo" with a Brian Wilson-led album within 5-6 months, yes, I think it would've been a hit. That's Why God Made The Radio is a pretty good comparison. The group was riding the wave of that 50th Anniversary, with the big tour and strategic TV appearances such as QVC, Jimmy Fallon, and The Grammys. The same thing was happening in 1988-89. Hey, even though it's a joke, Still Cruisin' did sell.
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Post by kds on Oct 15, 2019 12:34:49 GMT
I think the best way for The Beach Boys to have had any real creative success in the late 80s / 1990s would have been with an outside collaborator. Frankly, I don't think much of what Brian Wilson wrote in the 1980s and into the 1990s, until hooking up with Joe Thomas, was really all that good. Granted, you can probably take half of BW 88 and combine it with the six songs from Still Cruisin and have a pretty good album. But, that would likely be a one off album.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 15, 2019 18:34:53 GMT
I think the best way for The Beach Boys to have had any real creative success in the late 80s / 1990s would have been with an outside collaborator. Frankly, I don't think much of what Brian Wilson wrote in the 1980s and into the 1990s, until hooking up with Joe Thomas, was really all that good. Granted, you can probably take half of BW 88 and combine it with the six songs from Still Cruisin and have a pretty good album. But, that would likely be a one off album. I see your point. Even if the group would've released an album in 1989, and if it would've been critically and commercially successful, what are the odds of them following it up with another quality effort? I mean, this is The Beach Boys we're talking about. So, yesh, it probably would've been a one-off.
The biggest reason that the 1989-90-91 period was so frustrating is because the band was actually gathering momentum since 1984. I hate to say that Dennis' death was a springboard, but I think it did serve to sober them up - literally. There were a few significant events in the group's career that at the very least kept them in the public eye. You had the successful D.C. Beach Party in 1984. In 1985, "Getcha Back" was a commercial success; it got the band on the radio and on TV, specifically MTV. Then there was Live Aid and more TV appearances like Solid Gold. Regardless of its artistic merit or lack of, "Wipe Out" with The Fat Boys was successful. The Beach Boys' 25th Anniversary was also televised on national TV. "California Dreamin'" wasn't a hit single, but the video also got some decent rotation on MTV in 1987. And as I mentioned above, 1988 was a great year including Brian's solo album, "Kokomo" hitting No. 1, and the band's induction into the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame.
By the summer of 1989, the Beach Boys were starring in their own syndicated TV show. So they were on a bit of a roll. They were all healthier, wealthier, and wiser. Well, healthier and wealthier. If they were ever in position to make another stab at a run of successful albums, it could've/should've started about 5-6 months after "Kokomo" charted, maybe the spring of 1989. However, for reasons and decisions that only they could know or make, it just wasn't meant to be. Again.
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Post by kds on Oct 15, 2019 18:37:57 GMT
I think the best way for The Beach Boys to have had any real creative success in the late 80s / 1990s would have been with an outside collaborator. Frankly, I don't think much of what Brian Wilson wrote in the 1980s and into the 1990s, until hooking up with Joe Thomas, was really all that good. Granted, you can probably take half of BW 88 and combine it with the six songs from Still Cruisin and have a pretty good album. But, that would likely be a one off album. I see your point. Even if the group would've released an album in 1989, and if it would've been critically and commercially successful, what are the odds of them following it up with another quality effort? I mean, this is The Beach Boys we're talking about. So, yesh, it probably would've been a one-off.
I think that's where the need for an outside writer / collaborator / producer comes in, or maybe more than one. And, not Terry Melcher. Despite some short term success with him with Getcha Back and Kokomo, he was not the answer. One would have to believe that between Brian, Mike, Al, Carl, Bruce, and a collaborator(s), they could've done an album or two in the 1990s.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 15, 2019 18:56:49 GMT
I see your point. Even if the group would've released an album in 1989, and if it would've been critically and commercially successful, what are the odds of them following it up with another quality effort? I mean, this is The Beach Boys we're talking about. So, yesh, it probably would've been a one-off.
I think that's where the need for an outside writer / collaborator / producer comes in, or maybe more than one. And, not Terry Melcher. Despite some short term success with him with Getcha Back and Kokomo, he was not the answer. One would have to believe that between Brian, Mike, Al, Carl, Bruce, and a collaborator(s), they could've done an album or two in the 1990s. Again, because of the number of songwriters in the group and some who were pretty good, I didn't think it was ever necessary to go outside the group for songs, unless they were covers. And you know what? After awhile they weren't exactly making great choices of covers either!
But I'm with you on finding the right producer. Sadly, because of his issues, Brian was not the guy anymore, at least not by himself. Bruce proved that he wasn't the right choice. Al probably didn't want it. Mike couldn't do it. It is a little curious how Carl, who literally carried the group with production duties in the early 1970's, never returned to that role. Yeah, they had to go outside the group. I wonder how much time, thought, and effort was actually put into their decision-making for a producer? Did somebody stand up at a meeting and say, "How about so-and-so?" And everybody else present said, "OK, whatever..."
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Post by kds on Oct 15, 2019 19:14:11 GMT
I think that's where the need for an outside writer / collaborator / producer comes in, or maybe more than one. And, not Terry Melcher. Despite some short term success with him with Getcha Back and Kokomo, he was not the answer. One would have to believe that between Brian, Mike, Al, Carl, Bruce, and a collaborator(s), they could've done an album or two in the 1990s. Again, because of the number of songwriters in the group and some who were pretty good, I didn't think it was ever necessary to go outside the group for songs, unless they were covers. And you know what? After awhile they weren't exactly making great choices of covers either!
But I'm with you on finding the right producer. Sadly, because of his issues, Brian was not the guy anymore, at least not by himself. Bruce proved that he wasn't the right choice. Al probably didn't want it. Mike couldn't do it. It is a little curious how Carl, who literally carried the group with production duties in the early 1970's, never returned to that role. Yeah, they had to go outside the group. I wonder how much time, thought, and effort was actually put into their decision-making for a producer? Did somebody stand up at a meeting and say, "How about so-and-so?" And everybody else present said, "OK, whatever..."
I made the suggestion for going outside of the group because neither Brian, Mike, Al, Carl, or Bruce were exactly bringing great material to the table. In all honesty, I think it took Joe Thomas and Scott Bennett to get some solid later day material out of Brian.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 15, 2019 19:46:07 GMT
Again, because of the number of songwriters in the group and some who were pretty good, I didn't think it was ever necessary to go outside the group for songs, unless they were covers. And you know what? After awhile they weren't exactly making great choices of covers either!
But I'm with you on finding the right producer. Sadly, because of his issues, Brian was not the guy anymore, at least not by himself. Bruce proved that he wasn't the right choice. Al probably didn't want it. Mike couldn't do it. It is a little curious how Carl, who literally carried the group with production duties in the early 1970's, never returned to that role. Yeah, they had to go outside the group. I wonder how much time, thought, and effort was actually put into their decision-making for a producer? Did somebody stand up at a meeting and say, "How about so-and-so?" And everybody else present said, "OK, whatever..."
I made the suggestion for going outside of the group because neither Brian, Mike, Al, Carl, or Bruce were exactly bringing great material to the table. In all honesty, I think it took Joe Thomas and Scott Bennett to get some solid later day material out of Brian. I guess I always had faith in the guys that if they really put forth the effort to compose, and ultimately chose the right song(s) to put on an album (and that was NEVER a given), that they could've sustained a recording career releasing quality material.
I know I'm oversimplifying it, but it seemed so simple. For several reasons I didn't think Brian Wilson should've pursued a solo career. The main reason was that I didn't think he was able to come up with ENOUGH quality material to fill an entire album. Now, three, four, or maybe five quality songs? Yeah, I'll buy that. So, right off the bat, you would've had a nucleus or enough songs to build an album around. Was it too hard to ask the other members to contribute one good song each? Just one? So, do the math. That comes to about nine or ten songs right there. Add a cover or two and you have your album. Prior to 1976, they used to do that. Then they lost their way. Then other people got involved!
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Post by kds on Oct 15, 2019 19:50:12 GMT
I made the suggestion for going outside of the group because neither Brian, Mike, Al, Carl, or Bruce were exactly bringing great material to the table. In all honesty, I think it took Joe Thomas and Scott Bennett to get some solid later day material out of Brian. I guess I always had faith in the guys that if they really put forth the effort to compose, and ultimately chose the right song(s) to put on an album (and that was NEVER a given), that they could've sustained a recording career releasing quality material.
I know I'm oversimplifying it, but it seemed so simple. For several reasons I didn't think Brian Wilson should've pursued a solo career. The main reason was that I didn't think he was able to come up with ENOUGH quality material to fill an entire album. Now, three, four, or maybe five quality songs? Yeah, I'll buy that. So, right off the bat, you would've had a nucleus or enough songs to build an album around. Was it too hard to ask the other members to contribute one good song each? Just one? So, do the math. That comes to about nine or ten songs right there. Add a cover or two and you have your album. Prior to 1976, they used to do that. Then they lost their way. Then other people got involved!
To be fair, other people were involved when they were in their prime too - mostly as lyric writers - Roger Christian, Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, among others. So, the songwriting has really never been up to the primary five members of the group.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 15, 2019 20:07:00 GMT
I guess I always had faith in the guys that if they really put forth the effort to compose, and ultimately chose the right song(s) to put on an album (and that was NEVER a given), that they could've sustained a recording career releasing quality material.
I know I'm oversimplifying it, but it seemed so simple. For several reasons I didn't think Brian Wilson should've pursued a solo career. The main reason was that I didn't think he was able to come up with ENOUGH quality material to fill an entire album. Now, three, four, or maybe five quality songs? Yeah, I'll buy that. So, right off the bat, you would've had a nucleus or enough songs to build an album around. Was it too hard to ask the other members to contribute one good song each? Just one? So, do the math. That comes to about nine or ten songs right there. Add a cover or two and you have your album. Prior to 1976, they used to do that. Then they lost their way. Then other people got involved!
To be fair, other people were involved when they were in their prime too - mostly as lyric writers - Roger Christian, Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, among others. So, the songwriting has really never been up to the primary five members of the group. When I said "other people got involved", I was referring more to other people who were influencing the direction and actual make up of the group. I'll just leave it at that, for another thread.
The "other people" you mentioned were mostly lyricists, though Usher did write some music. Now, certainly they influenced the music and direction of the group just by the subject matter they were writing about. And by 1989, yes, there is a good chance that most of the guys would've used collaborators or lyricists to some extent. But for the actual songwriting, the music part, I would've hoped the guts of the songs would've come from The Beach Boys. Well, there was Mike, so...
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