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Post by kds on Dec 18, 2021 1:49:04 GMT
I have to wonder how much Brian was influenced by his group of hangers on who were telling him how much better he was than the other BBs. Between Brian's mental state and the drugs, I have to imagine that got to his head after a while.
And, to be fair, it wasn't like the other guys were coming to the table with any great ideas at the time.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 30, 2022 21:02:27 GMT
Starting from some of our discussion on the best and worst of albums thread, I ended up reading this 2011 Aquarium Drunkard interview with Darian Sahanaja about The Smile Sessions. I don't remember whether I'd read it before.
What jumped out to me now was that he said:
I wonder why Brian lobbied hard. Was it because he didn't want people thinking "the real Smile" was different than the one they put together for BWPS, and didn't want to undermine that album? Or because it was just easier to follow a set template? Because he hadn't the slightest idea what he was thinking in 1967 (which has always been my suspicion, as I've said often: the best argument that BWPS is "the real Smile" is that there was never a real Smile)?
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Post by kds on Aug 30, 2022 21:06:35 GMT
Maybe Brian had a certain level of comfort with the sequence used for BWPS, after touring it and doing the studio album with it. So much so that he preferred to have that sequence used on what would be closest to a Beach Boys version of Smile as possible.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 31, 2022 13:56:38 GMT
It does beg the question, had they gone some other running order as the template for TSS, would that have drummed up some controversy among fans? Like "then why was BWPS not in that order?" or "what makes this new order 'correct'?"
Which, if I'm not mistaken, was something Priore was talking about on his episode with the beachboystalkmatt show, to some degree? Wasn't he claiming to have "the real" Smile running order "figured out"?
I also wonder, if Brian was "lobbying hard" for the BWPS order, against whom was he lobbying? You don't have to lobby hard against the wind... It's hard to imagine Mike, Bruce, or Al having all that much to say about it. So are we talking about lobbying against Alan Boyd?
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Post by kds on Aug 31, 2022 14:20:13 GMT
I think it was bound to cause controversy regardless, because you'll always have fans who are married to "their" vision of fan and / or convinced that the 2003/04 BWPS running order was not authentic to the "True Smile," whatever that even is.
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Post by B.E. on Sept 3, 2022 15:51:08 GMT
I also wonder, if Brian was "lobbying hard" for the BWPS order, against whom was he lobbying? You don't have to lobby hard against the wind... It's hard to imagine Mike, Bruce, or Al having all that much to say about it. So are we talking about lobbying against Alan Boyd?
That is an interesting question. I'd imagine no one had any concrete alternative sequencing ideas ( although I could be 100% wrong on that), but merely in the planning stages of the project, in the face of discussions to explore alternate approaches, Brian was adamant in following BWPS sequencing. Which, by the way, thanks for bringing this to my attention. It's hard to know what the individual Beach Boys think about certain projects or to know their level of involvement sometimes. This is complete speculation - but I'd imagine that after Brian had finally confronted and completed Smile, he wasn't about to revisit it himself OR let anyone else mess with it. As kds mentioned, it's not just that he had finally released Smile, the album, but he had toured it extensively. Whether or not certain fans think Smile was complete in 1967 or that it remains incomplete, I think Brian considers BWPS the definitive, set-in-stone SMiLE.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 3, 2022 16:27:37 GMT
I also wonder, if Brian was "lobbying hard" for the BWPS order, against whom was he lobbying? You don't have to lobby hard against the wind... It's hard to imagine Mike, Bruce, or Al having all that much to say about it. So are we talking about lobbying against Alan Boyd?
Whether or not certain fans think Smile was complete in 1967 or that it remains incomplete, I think Brian considers BWPS the definitive, set-in-stone SMiLE. I don't think he does for a second. What BWPS does do for Brian is, it provides an "excuse" to NOT have to discuss certain SMiLE issues ever again. He no longer has to answer questions about the final tracklist, the sequencing, the linking of the tracks, etc. Even if he wanted to, and I don't think it was ever a possibility anyway, Brian could never sit down and say - and this is complete conjecture and speculation - "I was going to end the 1967 album with "Surf's Up" not "Good Vibrations", or "SMiLE was going to be twelve separate tracks; no suites or linking tracks", or "there was no 'water chant' at that time, and the 'keystone cops bit' had nothing to do with "Fire", or "I planned fades for 'Cabin Essence', 'Surf's Up', and 'Worms'". If Brian would say things like that, it would seriously contradict what he did with BWPS and add even less authenticity to it. Oh, Brian could say that he had a change of plans for it, it evolved, and it was a 37 year work-in-progress (well, he did kind of say that), but that would've been a humongous can of worms opened, and there's no way Brian wanted to go there. So, with the release of BWPS, he conveniently avoided all of that.
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Post by B.E. on Sept 3, 2022 18:05:48 GMT
Whether or not certain fans think Smile was complete in 1967 or that it remains incomplete, I think Brian considers BWPS the definitive, set-in-stone SMiLE. I don't think he does for a second. What BWPS does do for Brian is, it provides an "excuse" to NOT have to discuss certain SMiLE issues ever again. He no longer has to answer questions about the final tracklist, the sequencing, the linking of the tracks, etc. Even if he wanted to, and I don't think it was ever a possibility anyway, Brian could never sit down and say - and this is complete conjecture and speculation - "I was going to end the 1967 album with "Surf's Up" not "Good Vibrations", or "SMiLE was going to be twelve separate tracks; no suites or linking tracks", or "there was no 'water chant' at that time, and the 'keystone cops bit' had nothing to do with "Fire", or "I planned fades for 'Cabin Essence', 'Surf's Up', and 'Worms'". If Brian would say things like that, it would seriously contradict what he did with BWPS and add even less authenticity to it. Oh, Brian could say that he had a change of plans for it, it evolved, and it was a 37 year work-in-progress (well, he did kind of say that), but that would've been a humongous can of worms opened, and there's no way Brian wanted to go there. So, with the release of BWPS, he conveniently avoided all of that. Was Brian ever answering those questions, though? I don't think he feels any obligation to. And I guess I just think it's simpler than that (for Brian). He gave up on it and buried it. It haunted him. Then, with help, he finally finishes it. Why would he even begin to entertain undoing that? I'm not saying he thinks it's exactly how it would have been in 1967, but just that it's finally complete. And I don't think that would preclude him from discussing things he might have done differently in 1967. (Though, clearly, he's never really wanted to discuss Smile in that way...ever. But, again, I think that's equally true both before and after BWPS. He just doesn't like talking about it. And most of the questions he'd be asked are simply unanswerable, anyway.)
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2022 18:55:37 GMT
I think the questions are unanswerable, too, because as I've speculated ad nauseum, he never settled on a plan. So what's he going to say (even if he remembers, which I wonder about)?
Q: How was it supposed to go? A: I'm not sure, that's the problem ... I couldn't figure it out. Q: Why not? A: ...?
I mean, what are you supposed to say when you're being asked WHY you were unable to finish what you thought was your masterpiece?
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 3, 2022 19:08:00 GMT
I think the questions are unanswerable, too, because as I've speculated ad nauseum, he never settled on a plan. So what's he going to say (even if he remembers, which I wonder about)?
Q: How was it supposed to go? A: I'm not sure, that's the problem ... I couldn't figure it out. Q: Why not? A: ...?
I mean, what are you supposed to say when you're being asked WHY you were unable to finish what you thought was your masterpiece?
I think there's a lot of ways it could've been handled. Like I mentioned on another thread, Brian and an interviewer could've taken an approach, similar to ones we've seen with John Lennon and Paul McCartney, where they simply go down the list of SMiLE songs and Brian gives a short but direct and descriptive answer as to the genesis of the song and any other relevant details about it. Why would've that been so difficult for Brian to answer? It surely would've shed some crucial light on the SMiLE songs, at least what Brian had in mind when he wrote the songs. As far as the album not being finished, that could have been handled in an effective way, too. Simply ask Brian what was his intention through the process up to when he scrapped it and transitioned to Smiley Smile. You might've even gotten out of him (the truth) why he didn't complete it. Of course it's all a moot point now. Obviously the interview never happened and it's not going to happen in the future. But, under the right circumstances and with the right participants (i.e. Brian, Van Dyke Parks, David Leaf, maybe Darian Sahanaja), I think it could've. I wonder if it was ever formally proposed or presented to Brian?
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Post by B.E. on Sept 3, 2022 19:52:07 GMT
SJS, that would have been great. Particularly if done by, say, the Spring of 1968 or something. But I don't think that really has any bearing on whether or not Brian thinks of BWPS as the true/definitive/completed/whatever Smile. I really think what kds mentioned holds a lot of weight. How could Brian have toured BWPS night after night and not felt like it was Smile? (Not to mention recording and releasing the album to critical acclaim and winning a Grammy for "Mrs O'Leary's Cow" and the whole thing.)
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2022 20:02:18 GMT
Yeah, I would have loved that kind of interview when Brian was still a lot more with it. Honestly I can't imagine him adding honest answers decades later no matter who asked or how. It was too big a deal, too big a disappointment, too much pressure, too many questions, for too long. I mean, yeah, he did the dog and pony show through BWPS promotion, but he was also full of it when he did those interviews. (We scrapped it because we thought it was too advanced, etc.)
The best interview probably would have been catching him on a good day circa spring or summer 1967, but preferably even before it was announced it was not happening.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 3, 2022 20:14:25 GMT
SJS, that would have been great. Particularly if done by, say, the Spring of 1968 or something. But I don't think that really has any bearing on whether or not Brian thinks of BWPS as the true/definitive/completed/whatever Smile. I really think what kds mentioned holds a lot of weight. How could Brian have toured BWPS night after night and not felt like it was Smile? (Not to mention recording and releasing the album to critical acclaim and winning a Grammy for "Mrs O'Leary's Cow" and the whole thing.) My above post wasn't so much addressing Brian's thoughts on BWPS as much as trying to get to the "truth" about his thoughts on the SMiLE songs/original unfinished album. As far as Brian being emotionally invested in BWPS, while I'll concede there was undoubtedly a lot of emotional hurdles to overcome in the initial confronting of the SMiLE songs in 2003-2004, I remain skeptical about Brian's...interest...in the eventual touring and recording of BWPS.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 3, 2022 20:22:50 GMT
Yeah, I would have loved that kind of interview when Brian was still a lot more with it. Honestly I can't imagine him adding honest answers decades later no matter who asked or how. It was too big a deal, too big a disappointment, too much pressure, too many questions, for too long. I mean, yeah, he did the dog and pony show through BWPS promotion, but he was also full of it when he did those interviews. (We scrapped it because we thought it was too advanced, etc.)
The best interview probably would have been catching him on a good day circa spring or summer 1967, but preferably even before it was announced it was not happening.
I think a meaningful interview could've happened up to 2003-2004 when Brian would've been what, 61 or 62 years old, but after that I don't think it would've been (as) feasible or productive.
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Post by B.E. on Sept 3, 2022 20:53:25 GMT
Kapitan mentioned not appreciating the aux percussion on TSS version of "Wind Chimes". Well, a little detail that always bothered me about another track, "You Are My Sunshine", is the saxophone (?) part at exactly 0:55. Really, the whole part (0:47-0:55) - which I love - is performed pretty poorly, but the specific thing that bothers me is the missing repetition in the lead up to the final three notes. It always feels "off" when I listen to it. Then I listened to BWPS for the first time in ages today I realized, "well, duh, that 3rd repetition is included on the BWPS performance - no wonder TSS version sounds off to me!" (But, also, it's just a matter of timing, right?) Cued up:
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