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Post by Kapitan on Jan 22, 2020 23:21:31 GMT
What's so dangerous about keeping the executive in check? I do want to say that this is one of my strong beliefs, and something I dislike strongly about this president. He is, by all accounts including those people who support him, someone who values his own judgment and his own counsel more than that of experts. And he clearly (as evidenced by his numerous executive actions, no small number of which have been overturned by courts as unconstitutional) believes he should have the authority to act as he might in his private companies, as a sole executive.
America is too big, with too many diverse interests and responsibilities, for that. The executive should be weakened after its decades of empowerment, to be better in balance with the judiciary and legislature. (And that means the legislature, especially, has to step up and put on their big-boy pants and do something, or at least take a stand, every once in a while.) This has historically been a conservative position, with really only moderate-to-liberal Republican Richard Nixon and wartime-and-Cheney-influenced George W. Bush. The entire Tea Party movement fought this battle. But both parties have pushed executive power, and they have gotten away with it, for decades.
It has to end. I was opposed to Pres. Obama pushing for more executive power, and I voted for him twice. I was opposed to Pres. Bush on the subject. I was opposed to Pres. Clinton on the subject. (Before that, I was too young to vote.) But point being, it isn't just wrong with "the other side" has the presidency. It IS a way to get things done quickly, but it isn't a way to actually solve problems, certainly not with the prerequisite buy-in that prevents them from being overturned by the next opposition-party president.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 23, 2020 14:16:23 GMT
This uses the impeachment trial as a launching point, but isn’t about that. Indulge me though… The other day, Chief Justice Roberts reprimanded the impeachment managers and the president’s counsel for their tone, basically saying that they needed to show appropriate decorum and respect for the institutions of the country. This morning, I’m listening to (very) conservative Ben Shapiro’s daily podcast from yesterday, and he’s mocking Chief Justice Roberts for trying to maintain some semblance of respect, or (as I’d call it) class and dignity. Shapiro’s argument is basically that the cat is already out of the bag, it’s a circus, so let’s just let it all hang out and run rampant rather than pretend to take this seriously. A little later, in describing the president, he makes an analogy about the president’s behavior toward the institutions, saying something like “let’s not pretend the president killed anyone; rather, the president showed up and saw the body was already dead.” In other words, Politics is already broken, so screw it. I agree with part of the diagnosis: politics is broken; the impeachment is a partisan cartoon. But I wholly disagree with the conclusion that, because things aren’t good, we should feel free to make them worse. That feels to me like saying if you see a candy bar wrapper on the ground at the park, you should feel free to toss your empty bottles, napkins, and paper plates on the ground, too. Someone left a paper towel on the restroom floor? You should just piss on the floor, then. People are speeding on the highway? You ought to ignore all traffic laws, just drive on the shoulder or in the wrong lanes. In other words, that’s a fatalistic mindset. It’s saying, “the damage is already done, so forget it: throw the rules out the window.” And by definition, there can’t be improvement if everyone takes that mindset. It’s the easy way out, and it feels good in the moment, but it’s not productive. Rather, as much as I hate clichés, I do like and believe to some extent in the concept of “fake it ‘til you make it.” I think good behavior, even if for the sake of ritual or formality, breeds good behavior … even good thoughts. Actually “ritual” is a great word here, especially as applies to institutions we’re talking about here: it calls to mind religion, where ritual helps reinforce faith (and often, people trying to be better versions of themselves); but it applies to institutions like Congress, like the media, like academia, as well. In every one of those institutions, I think we’d all be better served if more people brought more respect to them (which means bringing respect to the other people within them), rather than deciding that since they’re already broken, we may as well be our animal selves. Thanks for humoring me on this long post, and apologies and thanks to anyone who suffered through it all.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 23, 2020 14:38:42 GMT
Good post, and I agree with you. We couldn't see it on TV, but it was later reported that several Senators were getting up and leaving, not returning for HOURS. Some were gathering outside and just shooting the sh--. Rand Paul was observed doing crossword puzzles. There were other stories, too.
Now, I get it. In my opinion, these impeachment hearings are a joke and a fraud, but that's not the point. I think there is a time and place to express your feelings on the proceedings. There will never be a shortage of reporters to express your opinion to; they'll stand there and record you for as long as you want to speak. However, I don't think the time and place to express your dissatisfaction is during the actual proceedings. I know it's hard to sit there and listen to the opposition, especially with people like Adam Schiff rambling on for days. But that's what you were elected for. That's what you are being paid for. We all have parts/times in our jobs when we look like to disappear, too, but we have to stay and work through it. And, I'm sure those Senators make a lot more money and have a lot more perks than you and I do.
Regarding Chief Justice Roberts, I do think he missed the boat. His little speech was a little too late...um, after-the-fact. Why did he sit there silent and then, when things were over, admonish the Senate. Why didn't he stop it from going on hours earlier when it was happening? And, in my opinion, much of the same thing happened yesterday, AFTER his admonishment, and he sat silent again. I don't believe in "throwing the rules out the window". Sure, I believe in some give-and-take and letting people say what they really mean, but even somebody like me, Joe Sixpack sitting in his recliner, can see that these senators are crossing the line.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 23, 2020 14:53:13 GMT
It’s not even specific to the hearings for me: it’s a really broad criticism, just with those hearings as a jumping-off point.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 23, 2020 15:29:01 GMT
In regard to the phone call/impeachment, Shapiro was reasonable for about 3 days. He’s gone completely off the rails since.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 23, 2020 15:42:04 GMT
I listen to him almost daily just because I really want to make an effort to hear diverse perspectives and he’s not dumb. (That’s rare in mass media! Well, not that the reporters or hosts are necessarily dumb, but the environment itself dumbs them down.) But that said, I disagree with him almost all the time, and actually think he’s a hypocrite as often as not. He tries—or at least claims to try—to rise above the rank partisanship to be some kind of truth-teller, but it’s pretty obvious that he assigns bad motivations to All Things Left, and good ones to All Things Right; that he calls his slant a fair and honest conservative bias, while calling other people’s disingenuous liberal bias; and so on. And I get it. He has a conservative network to promote. He’s popular with younger conservatives who like that confrontational approach. And when he couches it in objectivity, it feels better. I do appreciate that he continues to call out the president’s lies, rampant egoism, and moral shortcomings. That keeps him at least one step ahead of most conservative media, who seem to have been absorbed into the Permanent Trump Defense Team. But yeah, I’m not thrilled with what I hear from the guy. (Interesting point, though: he’s far, far more interesting and frankly much more personable and nuanced in his views when he’s conversing with other intelligent people, as opposed to his show when he’s a solo act preaching to a choir of like-minded people. That gives me hope that he can be a change agent for the better someday despite his current firebrand status.)
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 25, 2020 14:48:46 GMT
Well, it's a dreary Saturday morning. It's cold and rainy outside. I don't have any special plans for the day. I think I'll settle in and watch...drum roll...the impeachment hearings!
I've been talking a lot about these hearings at home, at work, and at play. I'm trying to remain neutral. I'm definitely not a fan of Adam Shifty Schiff, but at the same time I have to be careful what I say about that treasonous dictator, Donald J. Trump. I just hope I don't end up with my head on a pike.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 25, 2020 15:18:10 GMT
I've got it on the radio for now, though I don't know whether I'll listen to it all.
(Brief personal aside)
I like your goal of keeping an open mind. This is cliched, but it is honestly a REALLY difficult thing to do. I think most of us, just as human beings, subconsciously look for what's called confirmation bias, in other words, finding things that help reinforce the positions you have or those of people you like, and finding opportunities to cut those you don't. In other words, one big "I KNEW I was right!"
Since roughly the last presidential election (although in stages before then) my goal has been to do the opposite for my instincts. If I like someone or something, my first questions are "What makes me think this is true? How might it be wrong?" and with those I don't, "how might this be true? What is the best argument--how could I argue on behalf of this point?" It's sort of drawing on a sentiment I've heard from John Stuart Mill, "he who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that."
It's a really powerful mindset-changer! It also makes it much harder to fall into the easy, comfortable, even self-congratulatory positions of us v them, because you're thinking about "them"'s arguments from their own side, not as retold and rebutted by your own side.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 25, 2020 15:20:05 GMT
I have to say, the introductory remarks already repeated some lies we've heard from GOP before: they claimed to have been locked out of the House process, but the administration refused to participate, and relevant House members were a part of every hearing along the way.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 25, 2020 18:04:05 GMT
I think most of us, just as human beings, subconsciously look for what's called confirmation bias, in other words, finding things that help reinforce the positions you have or those of people you like, and finding opportunities to cut those you don't. In other words, one big "I KNEW I was right!"
And, what you felt you were right about may well have been a result of your brain's nearly infinite supply of false confidence and the trillions of shortcuts it took.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 25, 2020 18:32:55 GMT
I think most of us, just as human beings, subconsciously look for what's called confirmation bias, in other words, finding things that help reinforce the positions you have or those of people you like, and finding opportunities to cut those you don't. In other words, one big "I KNEW I was right!"
And, what you felt you were right about may well have been a result of your brain's nearly infinite supply of false confidence and the trillions of shortcuts it took. Exactly. Not that we ought to paralyze ourselves with incessant, exhausting doubt of everything. But I think most of us, especially in terms of our political/cultural/interpersonal thoughts, have plenty of room for more skepticism of our own positions.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 25, 2020 19:00:35 GMT
I'll admit that this has been a very strange experience for me. I've certainly noticed that I'm seeing certain politicians, now, in a different light. Why? Well, because I agree with them.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 25, 2020 21:03:19 GMT
I'll admit that this has been a very strange experience for me. I've certainly noticed that I'm seeing certain politicians, now, in a different light. Why? Well, because I agree with them. Do you mean "now" as in during these impeachment hearings, or more generally? I'm very curious as to any specifics you'd care to share as far as whom you agree with, on what, etc.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 26, 2020 7:29:53 GMT
I'll admit that this has been a very strange experience for me. I've certainly noticed that I'm seeing certain politicians, now, in a different light. Why? Well, because I agree with them. Do you mean "now" as in during these impeachment hearings, or more generally? I'm very curious as to any specifics you'd care to share as far as whom you agree with, on what, etc. Yes, I was referring to the trial. Schiff, in particular, is the cause of my bewilderment. Previously, I detested the guy. I felt exactly the same way about him as SJS does. I'll probably return to that state immediately following the trial, but, in the meantime, I'm impressed. There were still moments that irked me, but that's because I'm in a rare camp (I think). I don't like, from either side, the emphasis on past or future elections. That might seem odd considering the nature of the impeachment, but for me this is strictly about abuse of power (which also happens to be the stronger argument, IMO). The rest becomes a distraction. Although, even with that in mind, I thought Schiff was fairly persuasive in raising that issue in support of disqualifying Trump from running again (which is a separate issue from removing him from office). Basically, Trump is willing to cheat. He's said as much. It's not just Schiff, though. The strangeness continues. I caught myself listening to a Schumer interview today and agreeing with him. Make it stop! Trump is screwing up my orbit. In all seriousness, since I've crossed the aisle on this issue, I'm also seeing some Republicans in a slightly different light as well. Not that I was blind previously. In fact, I've been mightily disillusioned with both major parties for a long time. Independent or Libertarian. These seem to be my options.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jan 26, 2020 13:51:32 GMT
I blame the two-party system. To me, it is responsible for politicians' lack of honesty, inability to stick to one's beliefs, not doing "the right thing", and overall NOT getting things done for the country. The pressure to "stick to the party line" is an overwhelming pressure, too overwhelming actually, and these impeachment proceedings are a perfect example of it. Is it merely a coincidence that the vote to impeach is right down the middle? Is that REALLY what those representatives and senators...believed?
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