|
Post by B.E. on Apr 21, 2024 13:24:53 GMT
This was shared by Ian a few weeks ago at SSMB and EHF:
I don't believe he has followed up yet with the full interview.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Apr 21, 2024 14:21:45 GMT
The big takeaway for me is clarification about Dennis' hand injury. To hear the details from Dennis...at the time...clears things up for me. It was indeed as serious as had been reported. He couldn't play for more than 30 seconds due to the injury. He knew it would take (approximately) 3 years to heal and between 3 and 3 1/2 years later he was back drumming live for the Beach Boys.
But when it comes to pulling his songs from Surf's Up and his argument with Carl, his place in the band, and potentially quitting touring(!), we get some new information that fits in pretty well with what we knew but also adds a few wrinkles. Dennis was certainly at a crossroads in that moment.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Apr 21, 2024 14:41:58 GMT
I think this is interesting: This was shared by Ian a few weeks ago at SSMB and EHF: As I recall, that's what "It's a New Day" was meant to be: an ad for an airline or something. What's interesting, though, is that Dennis seems to be thought of as one of those "pure art over commerce" kinds of guys with his music. Yet in the early '70s he was looking to use his music to hawk products! The stereotypes would lead one to guess Mike Love or Bruce Johnston would be the one to use their music in commercials.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 21, 2024 15:53:14 GMT
Dennis sure was a troubled soul. It just seems like his life was one calamity after another. He had a meeting in New York to discuss things that never came to fruition. He was "done touring" which, of course, didn't happen. He had an argument with Carl and pulled his songs from the Surf's Up album because his music "sounds nothing like what it should on the album" (which it, in fact, did). And, he severed the nerves in his hand and couldn't drum. Anything else? Jeez...Dennis just was not meant to have a normal life, whatever that is/was.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Apr 21, 2024 16:13:48 GMT
He had an argument with Carl and pulled his songs from the Surf's Up album because his music "sounds nothing like what it should on the album" (which it, in fact, did). I'm not defending the outcome, but artistically what he's saying makes sense. How could his music - as he envisioned it - flow when interrupted by others' music. Particularly when much of that music was quite different stylistically. That interview does put a little bit of a spin on the "sequencing" aspect of the argument. Perhaps it wasn't so much about the placement of a particular track but more an overall dissatisfaction of how to (or whether to) integrate Dennis' material as a whole. Could also have been a bit of both. Again, not defending the decision, but it certainly sounds like at the time he planned to prioritize his music, but obviously things didn't work out that way. But, pulling his songs from Surf's Up and (potentially) quitting touring in favor of working on his music with Daryl seems to be where his head was in mid 1971. And what if he ended up releasing a solo album later that year or in 1972? Might have been worth it. We also don't know how much resistance he got from the band about doing his own thing. Was Dennis' return to touring in September 1971 predominantly his idea or was he convinced to stay in the fold and not branch out? I'm thinking it wasn't necessarily one or the other. He was in a complicated situation and probably had conflicted feelings. And, to your earlier point, he was troubled.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 21, 2024 16:41:55 GMT
He had an argument with Carl and pulled his songs from the Surf's Up album because his music "sounds nothing like what it should on the album" (which it, in fact, did). I'm not defending the outcome, but artistically what he's saying makes sense. How could his music - as he envisioned it - flow when interrupted by others' music. Particularly when much of that music was quite different stylistically. That interview does put a little bit of a spin on the "sequencing" aspect of the argument. Perhaps it wasn't so much about the placement of a particular track but more an overall dissatisfaction of how to (or whether to) integrate Dennis' material as a whole. Could also have been a bit of both. Again, not defending the decision, but it certainly sounds like at the time he planned to prioritize his music, but obviously things didn't work out that way. But, pulling his songs from Surf's Up and (potentially) quitting touring in favor of working on his music with Daryl seems to be where his head was in mid 1971. And what if he ended up releasing a solo album later that year or in 1972? Might have been worth it. We also don't know how much resistance he got from the band about doing his own thing. Was Dennis' return to touring in September 1971 predominantly his idea or was he convinced to stay in the fold and not branch out? I'm thinking it wasn't necessarily one or the other. He was in a complicated situation and probably had conflicted feelings. And, to your earlier point, he was troubled. And, I don't agree with Dennis that his music, even as he envisioned it, would not have fit on Surf's Up. Actually, his songs from around that period (including "Lady" if that was chosen) would've fit perfectly. And, for Dennis to use sequencing as a reason for pulling them is also absurd - and that comes from someone who is obsessed with album sequencing. What was the alternative? Pulling the songs and then nobody hears them. That makes no sense. And, like his songs on Carl & The Passions fit stylistically with the others?
I do agree that Dennis was prioritizing working with Daryl Dragon and releasing a solo album in the early 70's. How did that work out? Just another Dennis "thing" that didn't...happen. Yes, being in the Beach Boys was a complicated situation which brought about complicated feelings and led to total chaos at times. It was always that way. Dennis Wilson could be very honest and direct in some interviews. However, sometimes I think he was full of shit. Or, maybe he just said whatever he was thinking or whatever was on his mind at a particular moment. The guy was a dreamer.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Apr 21, 2024 16:59:53 GMT
However, sometimes I think he was full of shit. Or, maybe he just said whatever he was thinking or whatever was on his mind at a particular moment. The guy was a dreamer. That seems to have run in the family, at least among the two older brothers. Yet I'll say this: I'm surprised if you don't appreciate that--meaning saying whatever he was thinking or whatever was on his mind at a particular moment--about Dennis. After all, you've criticized Carl's interviews for being too guarded, too party line. So isn't Dennis's honesty (be it on a whim or even full of shit) refreshing? I think this whole discussion really just points to the problems of a democracy. If the band is going to operate in such a way that everyone chimes in with his own two cents, that (as Al is quoted as saying a lot) whoever showed up in the studio and pushed hardest got his way, then there are going to be four, five, six, seven different ideas of what they ought to be doing at any particular moment, and there's no reason to expect cohesion.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Apr 21, 2024 17:02:29 GMT
I'm not defending the outcome, but artistically what he's saying makes sense. How could his music - as he envisioned it - flow when interrupted by others' music. Particularly when much of that music was quite different stylistically. That interview does put a little bit of a spin on the "sequencing" aspect of the argument. Perhaps it wasn't so much about the placement of a particular track but more an overall dissatisfaction of how to (or whether to) integrate Dennis' material as a whole. Could also have been a bit of both. Again, not defending the decision, but it certainly sounds like at the time he planned to prioritize his music, but obviously things didn't work out that way. But, pulling his songs from Surf's Up and (potentially) quitting touring in favor of working on his music with Daryl seems to be where his head was in mid 1971. And what if he ended up releasing a solo album later that year or in 1972? Might have been worth it. We also don't know how much resistance he got from the band about doing his own thing. Was Dennis' return to touring in September 1971 predominantly his idea or was he convinced to stay in the fold and not branch out? I'm thinking it wasn't necessarily one or the other. He was in a complicated situation and probably had conflicted feelings. And, to your earlier point, he was troubled. And, I don't agree with Dennis that his music, even as he envisioned it, would not have fit on Surf's Up. Actually, his songs from around that period (including "Lady" if that was chosen) would've fit perfectly. And, for Dennis to use sequencing as a reason for pulling them is also absurd - and that comes from someone who is obsessed with album sequencing. What was the alternative? Pulling the songs and then nobody hears them. That makes no sense. Like his songs on Carl & The Passions fit stylistically? I do agree that Dennis was prioritizing working with Daryl Dragon and releasing a solo album in the early 70's. How did that work out? Just another Dennis "thing" that didn't...happen. Yes, being in the Beach Boys was a complicated situation which brought about complicated feelings and led to total chaos at times. It was always that way. Dennis Wilson could be very honest and direct in some interviews. However, sometimes I think he was full of shit. Or, maybe he just said whatever he was thinking or whatever was on his mind at a particular moment. The guy was a dreamer. That's fine that you disagree with him, but that doesn't make his point of view absurd. And I doubt the point of pulling them was to make sure nobody ever heard them. As I read it, the point would be to present them differently (e.g. on a solo album). As we see, though, he very quickly changed his mind about touring and then clearly approached CATP differently. I think he gave up on his solo ambitions fairly quickly in the early 70s, but I think he was very open to it in mid 1971. Perhaps his injury pushed him toward (thoughts of) a solo career before he was really ready?
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Apr 21, 2024 17:14:10 GMT
I also don't get a "full of shit" vibe from what Ian shared. Other interviews? Sure, but not that one. Just my reading of it.
Though, like I alluded to in my initial post, Dennis' comments surrounding Surf's Up, while undoubtedly adding to the history, don't exactly clear things up. There's still uncertainty surrounding those events. We'll never understand it completely.
Oh, and I don't even know what way to take his comment about SDT, is that positive or negative? I assume the former?
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 21, 2024 17:43:22 GMT
However, sometimes I think he was full of shit. Or, maybe he just said whatever he was thinking or whatever was on his mind at a particular moment. The guy was a dreamer. That seems to have run in the family, at least among the two older brothers. Yet I'll say this: I'm surprised if you don't appreciate that--meaning saying whatever he was thinking or whatever was on his mind at a particular moment--about Dennis. After all, you've criticized Carl's interviews for being too guarded, too party line. So isn't Dennis's honesty (be it on a whim or even full of shit) refreshing? I think this whole discussion really just points to the problems of a democracy. If the band is going to operate in such a way that everyone chimes in with his own two cents, that (as Al is quoted as saying a lot) whoever showed up in the studio and pushed hardest got his way, then there are going to be four, five, six, seven different ideas of what they ought to be doing at any particular moment, and there's no reason to expect cohesion. Yes, Carl and Dennis were definitely opposites when it came to interviewing. Dennis's honesty was refreshing, but like I said (and this seems to be true with a lot of Beach Boys' interviews), how much of it was Dennis just spouting or fantasizing or dreaming or just trying to impress? How much of what Dennis prognosticated was based in fact or...fantasy?
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 21, 2024 17:59:22 GMT
And, I don't agree with Dennis that his music, even as he envisioned it, would not have fit on Surf's Up. Actually, his songs from around that period (including "Lady" if that was chosen) would've fit perfectly. And, for Dennis to use sequencing as a reason for pulling them is also absurd - and that comes from someone who is obsessed with album sequencing. What was the alternative? Pulling the songs and then nobody hears them. That makes no sense. Like his songs on Carl & The Passions fit stylistically? I do agree that Dennis was prioritizing working with Daryl Dragon and releasing a solo album in the early 70's. How did that work out? Just another Dennis "thing" that didn't...happen. Yes, being in the Beach Boys was a complicated situation which brought about complicated feelings and led to total chaos at times. It was always that way. Dennis Wilson could be very honest and direct in some interviews. However, sometimes I think he was full of shit. Or, maybe he just said whatever he was thinking or whatever was on his mind at a particular moment. The guy was a dreamer. That's fine that you disagree with him, but that doesn't make his point of view absurd. And I doubt the point of pulling them was to make sure nobody ever heard them. As I read it, the point would be to present them differently (e.g. on a solo album). As we see, though, he very quickly changed his mind about touring and then clearly approached CATP differently. I think he gave up on his solo ambitions fairly quickly in the early 70s, but I think he was very open to it in mid 1971. Perhaps his injury pushed him toward (thoughts of) a solo career before he was really ready? Yes, it does, jk. It can make it absurd. What sense is it to write, arrange, produce, record, mix, and maybe master songs - and then not release them because you don't like where they appear on the album? To me, and maybe to a lot of people, that's absurd. I'll say it again, nobody dwells on album sequencing like I do. I think it's one of the most underrated aspects of making an album successful. But, to remove all of your songs from an entire album because you don't agree with the sequencing or the placement of the songs - basically taking your ball and going home - accomplishes nothing, unless you want said songs released on a comp 50 years later when you're dead and gone. If every band member took that point of view, you couldn't get a good album assembled. It's complete self-destruction and a waste of a lot of time, effort, and money.
I wasn't making the point that pulling the songs was to make sure nobody ever heard them. The point was that the result of pulling them - ultimately nobody hearing the songs - was equally absurd. It was such an exercise in futility and poor judgment. It accomplished nothing. OK, Dennis, you made your point. Where'd that get you?
And, again, as far as "saving" them for a solo album where the music is "presented differently", sure, go for it. But, you better make sure you can pull that off, because if you can't, again, it's a total waste. And that's how I view a lot of Dennis's (previously) unreleased music. Such a waste.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Apr 21, 2024 18:34:40 GMT
SJS, perhaps reconsider the following quote:
This doesn't really sound like he just didn't like the sequence and that some other sequence of the same tracks would have worked. It seems like, ultimately, he just didn't think his music fit at all and that no sequence would have been satisfying to him. You really seem to be looking at this both as a fan of the group (over solo) and entirely in hindsight, but neither were the case for Dennis in 1971. Again, I'm not defending the outcome, but I can understand/appreciate it. Can you not see how an artist might not think his music gels with other people's music? That's what I think he's saying here. It's not like the group went to great lengths to collaborate and integrate their collective music into the group. Dennis' tracks in particular were nearly entirely solo endeavors.
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 21, 2024 19:03:53 GMT
SJS, perhaps reconsider the following quote: This doesn't really sound like he just didn't like the sequence and that some other sequence of the same tracks would have worked. It seems like, ultimately, he just didn't think his music fit at all and that no sequence would have been satisfying to him. You really seem to be looking at this both as a fan of the group (over solo) and entirely in hindsight, but neither were the case for Dennis in 1971. Again, I'm not defending the outcome, but I can understand/appreciate it. Can you not see how an artist might not think his music gels with other people's music? That's what I think he's saying here. It's not like the group went to great lengths to collaborate and integrate their collective music into the group. Dennis' tracks in particular were nearly entirely solo endeavors. I addressed the "fitting" point above. I don't agree with Dennis's point of view in this area. Not only is it perfectly normal, but it is commonplace for a member of a band to compose and record songs that don't "sound like" the other members or "don't fit" on the particular album being recording. But they find a way! They put 'em on. They make the best of it. They usually...don't pull 'em. I'll repeat that Dennis's songs circa 1971 did sound appropriate for Surf's Up (I know, I know, it's what he thought), would've flowed fine, and I'll repeat that if you're gonna start pulling your songs (or not offering them in the first place) because you're contemplating putting them on an upcoming solo album, then you better have your ducks in a row. And Dennis didn't.
B.E, I understand what Dennis is trying to say in this interview, but I just don't agree with it, I don't agree with his points. And I think it (not having Dennis's songs on Surf's Up) was a huge loss for the group and the fans. With Dennis's songs, I think Surf's Up would've leapfrogged a few albums on the all-time Beach Boys' album rankings.
|
|
|
Post by B.E. on Apr 21, 2024 19:29:10 GMT
B.E, I understand what Dennis is trying to say in this interview, but I just don't agree with it, I don't agree with his points.
So, just to be clear, you're acknowledging that Dennis might have pulled his songs more for artistic reasons than over sequencing, but either way you disagree with him and think it absurd?
|
|
|
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 21, 2024 20:35:50 GMT
B.E, I understand what Dennis is trying to say in this interview, but I just don't agree with it, I don't agree with his points.
So, just to be clear, you're acknowledging that Dennis might have pulled his songs more for artistic reasons than over sequencing, but either way you disagree with him and think it absurd? No, I don't think Dennis pulled his songs from Surf's Up more for artistic reasons than sequencing reasons. I don't think artistic reasons had anything to do with it. That's where I think Dennis was...not telling the truth. I think he was covering up in that interview, trying to not show himself in a bad light, trying to not make it look like he wasn't a team player. He almost made it look like he was doing the group a favor, pulling his songs to "save" the album from conflicting musical styles. I just don't buy it. Did "Slip On Through", "Got To Know The Woman", and "It's About Time" fit on Sunflower? Did "Make It Good" and "Cuddle Up" fit on Carl & The Passions (which used a Dennis song to close that album)?
This is what I think happened. This is my opinion. I'm not saying it's factual, it's just what I think happened. I think Dennis was very pleased with "(Wouldn't It Be Nice) To Live Again" and wanted it "featured" on Surf's Up as the closing track. I do think Dennis got into an argument with Carl, who was kind of the unofficial producer of the album, and Dennis lost that...sequencing difference of opinion. I think Dennis was probably upset, stubborn, and as I posted above, took his ball and went home. You know, then they're not going to get any of my songs. Fuck 'em.
When I listen to "Lady", "Wouldn't It Be Nice) To Love Again", "4th Of July", and some of the other Feel Flows Dennis songs, I think they would've fit nicely on Surf's Up. I don't think they are too different or too "out there" like some of Brian's stuff. Also, Surf's Up is a mixed bag to begin with, a lot of different styles on there. But, hey, who knows, maybe Dennis was in serious negotiations with some record company at the time for Poops or Hubba Hubba. Maybe Dennis thought, "No problem, I'll just put 'em on there..." But as we know, that never happened.
|
|