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Post by Kapitan on Apr 10, 2024 1:17:54 GMT
I've never had such an immediate downturn in an opinion of someone in so short a time. I was neutral on him, just knowing his name and reputation. But wow, it's like he's scientifically designed to make me hate him.
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Post by lonelysummer on Apr 10, 2024 2:58:28 GMT
I won't be surprised if the doc ends at 1980. That's where, for all intents and purposes, An American Band ends; and the only post-1980 stuff in Endless Harmony is, of course, a mention of Kokomo, a tribute to Dennis, and discussion of Brian's troubles. Let's face it, the general public only cares about 1961-1966; us die-hards care about 1967-1980; and even less of us care about the years beyond that. That is, unless they want to put the spotlight on Brian and his "comeback" as a solo artists from 1998 onward.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 10, 2024 11:52:48 GMT
I won't be surprised if the doc ends at 1980. That's where, for all intents and purposes, An American Band ends; and the only post-1980 stuff in Endless Harmony is, of course, a mention of Kokomo, a tribute to Dennis, and discussion of Brian's troubles. Let's face it, the general public only cares about 1961-1966; us die-hards care about 1967-1980; and even less of us care about the years beyond that. That is, unless they want to put the spotlight on Brian and his "comeback" as a solo artists from 1998 onward. A couple points... The reason the An American Band documentary doesn't have much post-1980 stuff is because it was released in 1985, so the production of that documentary probably started in 1983-84. Now, a lot did happen in 1983-84, but that wasn't the documentary to highlight to 1980s and 1990s. Endless Harmony is a good documentary, but it also falls short in exploring post-1980. These are even more reasons why it's necessary to devote more time to the post-1980 years. There's nothing out there that does!
This is related to the new documentary. Regarding the new Beach Boys' book, I've been lurking on the other forums. I don't buy for a second those opinions which are "alright" with the book ending in 1980. I'm reading a lot about "who cares"? There were only a few albums recorded. It's too negative of an era. Too many solo albums/careers. And on and on. Well, I care! I think it's ignorant and short-sighted to ignore the various happenings in a group outside the actual music. For most fans - yes, most fans - those things are important in developing and growing one's fandom. The "stories behind the music" is crucial; many times it affects the way we view or hear the music - whether we want it to or not. And, the Beach Boys definitely have the stories. I don't consider it Hollywood, soap opera, or National Enquirer stuff. Hey, fans live and die with this stuff. It's what forms/affects/determines the group or the group members. It directly influences the music which is created - on stage and in the studio. Not to sound corny, but music fans form a kind of relationship with bands and the band members. There's nothing wrong with wanting to know everything you can about your musical heroes. It's a big part of being a fan.
These are things (post-1980) that were/are important to many fans and, in my opinion, worth devoting some time to in a documentary:
- Carl Wilson's temporarily leaving the band/solo albums (Mike's?) - the return of Eugene Landy - the James Watt controversy - the 1983 appearance at the White House with Ronald Reagan
- Dennis Wilson's decline and death - 1984 D.C. Beach Party
- the band's appearance at Live Aid and Farm Aid
- the 1985 album, "Getcha Back", MTV videos, various TV appearances, - the 25th Anniversary TV special
- the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame induction
- Brian's 1988 solo album - the success of "Kokomo" - the Full House/John Stamos connection - Still Cruisin' and Summer In Paradise - the Endless Summer syndicated TV show - Brian leaving Dr. Landy - Stars & Stripes - Carl's death and Mike & Bruce continuing to tour as The Beach Boys
- Brian's solo career - 1997 Kennedy Center Honors (Brian) - Brian Wilson Presents Smile / The Smile Sessions - the 2012 reunion, album, tour
...to name a few.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 10, 2024 11:55:51 GMT
My bet is that it doesn't end (hard stop) at 1980, but that it goes something like Endless Harmony did: 4th of July mention/footage, "America's Band," Dennis's death, "Kokomo," brief mention of everyone going their separate ways, and brief reunion coverage, all more or less skipping the controversies, tensions, and lawsuits. But as usual, I'm guessing at least half the running time will be up through Pet Sounds/Smile; then I'm betting they emphasize the albums that have been part of the major archival releases--in part because it will give ample opportunity to talk about Al's, Carl's and Dennis's contributions and becoming a racially integrated group--more than they have in the past; and then they'll breeze through the rest quickly.
But I have to admit, having it and the book take the same approach would make a lot of sense if these are to be thought of as part of a cohesive whole. (However, making sense would almost make me vote against it, considering we're talking about the Beach Boys' career.)
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 10, 2024 12:00:13 GMT
Regarding the new Beach Boys' book, I've been lurking on the other forums. I don't buy for a second those opinions which are "alright" with the book ending in 1980. I'm reading a lot about "who cares"? There were only a few albums recorded. It's too negative of an era. Too many solo albums/careers. And on and on. Well, I care! I think it's ignorant and short-sighted to ignore the various happenings in a group outside the actual music. For most fans - yes, most fans - those things are important in developing and growing one's fandom. The "stories behind the music" is crucial; many times it affects the way we view or hear the music - whether we want it to or not. And, the Beach Boys definitely have the stories. I don't consider it Hollywood, soap opera, or National Enquirer stuff. Hey, fans live and die with this stuff. It's what forms/affects/determines the group or the group members. It directly influences the music which is created - on stage and in the studio. Not to sound corny, but music fans form a kind of relationship with bands and the band members. There's nothing wrong with wanting to know everything you can about your musical heroes. I wouldn't say "who cares?" but I would say "who's surprised?" And the reason is, the book is an official book, i.e., it's a promotional item. It's a KISS lunchbox, basically (but bigger, heavier, and more expensive). No official documentary or book is ever going to cover the details of some of those things we want to know about in a way that feels honest or satisfying because their primary purpose isn't to create a complete, accurate historical record, but to sell Beach Boys product.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 10, 2024 12:12:48 GMT
Regarding the new Beach Boys' book, I've been lurking on the other forums. I don't buy for a second those opinions which are "alright" with the book ending in 1980. I'm reading a lot about "who cares"? There were only a few albums recorded. It's too negative of an era. Too many solo albums/careers. And on and on. Well, I care! I think it's ignorant and short-sighted to ignore the various happenings in a group outside the actual music. For most fans - yes, most fans - those things are important in developing and growing one's fandom. The "stories behind the music" is crucial; many times it affects the way we view or hear the music - whether we want it to or not. And, the Beach Boys definitely have the stories. I don't consider it Hollywood, soap opera, or National Enquirer stuff. Hey, fans live and die with this stuff. It's what forms/affects/determines the group or the group members. It directly influences the music which is created - on stage and in the studio. Not to sound corny, but music fans form a kind of relationship with bands and the band members. There's nothing wrong with wanting to know everything you can about your musical heroes. I wouldn't say "who cares?" but I would say "who's surprised?" And the reason is, the book is an official book, i.e., it's a promotional item. It's a KISS lunchbox, basically (but bigger, heavier, and more expensive). No official documentary or book is ever going to cover the details of some of those things we want to know about in a way that feels honest or satisfying because their primary purpose isn't to create a complete, accurate historical record, but to sell Beach Boys product. But there should be. At least some documentary. I know I'm repeating myself but The Beach Boys deserve it. They deserve a multi-episode documentary. You have to admit that, while you/I/we would never predict a multi-episode documentary, when we first read that Iconic was working on one, maybe for a second we were hoping for that elusive all-encompassing historical documentary. Like The Beatles? Yes, what it looks like we're getting is another promotional item for the band's album catalogue. I'm easily frustrated and I'm old. I'm not ready to say "It's better than nothing".
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 10, 2024 12:24:18 GMT
I agree with you. There should be. I just don't see it happening in an official capacity.
That of course brings the problem of likely not having anywhere near full use of the resources, be it new interviews with everyone or archival materials. An outsider could put together some great stuff with existing materials, and maybe they could get new interviews with some people (though if it were unofficial, I'd guess the official camp would frown on anyone doing so).
It's an unfortunate problem. Time is another one.
I'll say this: my bet is the best documentary ever will end up being produced by an outsider, without any proper licensing, and will be posted on YouTube, where it will constantly be removed for copyright infringements, reposted, removed, and reposted forever.
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Post by kds on Apr 10, 2024 12:46:55 GMT
I've never had such an immediate downturn in an opinion of someone in so short a time. I was neutral on him, just knowing his name and reputation. But wow, it's like he's scientifically designed to make me hate him. I decided to Google him out of curiosity and he's in that band One Republic that I happen to hate. I think they're just one of those faceless, bland pop-rock groups of the 2000s. But, I don't want to be overly negative. At least he's not in Imagine Dragons.
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Post by kds on Apr 10, 2024 12:50:49 GMT
Regarding the new Beach Boys' book, I've been lurking on the other forums. I don't buy for a second those opinions which are "alright" with the book ending in 1980. I'm reading a lot about "who cares"? There were only a few albums recorded. It's too negative of an era. Too many solo albums/careers. And on and on. Well, I care! I think it's ignorant and short-sighted to ignore the various happenings in a group outside the actual music. For most fans - yes, most fans - those things are important in developing and growing one's fandom. The "stories behind the music" is crucial; many times it affects the way we view or hear the music - whether we want it to or not. And, the Beach Boys definitely have the stories. I don't consider it Hollywood, soap opera, or National Enquirer stuff. Hey, fans live and die with this stuff. It's what forms/affects/determines the group or the group members. It directly influences the music which is created - on stage and in the studio. Not to sound corny, but music fans form a kind of relationship with bands and the band members. There's nothing wrong with wanting to know everything you can about your musical heroes. I wouldn't say "who cares?" but I would say "who's surprised?" And the reason is, the book is an official book, i.e., it's a promotional item. It's a KISS lunchbox, basically (but bigger, heavier, and more expensive). No official documentary or book is ever going to cover the details of some of those things we want to know about in a way that feels honest or satisfying because their primary purpose isn't to create a complete, accurate historical record, but to sell Beach Boys product. I tend to agree. With very few exceptions, music docs rarely get into the nitty gritty that die hards like us really want to see covered. I think my expectations for the doc haven't really changed much since seeing the trailer. I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised. I figure, at the very worst, it'll be a well done doc telling the story of one of my favorite bands again.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 10, 2024 12:53:29 GMT
I've never had such an immediate downturn in an opinion of someone in so short a time. I was neutral on him, just knowing his name and reputation. But wow, it's like he's scientifically designed to make me hate him. I decided to Google him out of curiosity and he's in that band One Republic that I happen to hate. I think they're just one of those faceless, bland pop-rock groups of the 2000s. But, I don't want to be overly negative. At least he's not in Imagine Dragons. Yeah, I knew he had been in One Republic, which is one of those bands I can't think of a song by, and don't recognize when I listen ... except as one of those awful 00s bands like you mentioned. But I was (am, I suppose) willing to cut him slack or give him credit for his massive resume with some heavy-hitters. That performance Sheriff posted, though. Gawd, it makes me hate him. The ultimate douche, from the holey t-shirt to the faux-emotive squawking, to the facial expressions.
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Post by kds on Apr 10, 2024 12:54:32 GMT
I wouldn't say "who cares?" but I would say "who's surprised?" And the reason is, the book is an official book, i.e., it's a promotional item. It's a KISS lunchbox, basically (but bigger, heavier, and more expensive). No official documentary or book is ever going to cover the details of some of those things we want to know about in a way that feels honest or satisfying because their primary purpose isn't to create a complete, accurate historical record, but to sell Beach Boys product.But there should be. At least some documentary. I know I'm repeating myself but The Beach Boys deserve it. They deserve a multi-episode documentary. You have to admit that, while you/I/we would never predict a multi-episode documentary, when we first read that Iconic was working on one, maybe for a second we were hoping for that elusive all-encompassing historical documentary. Like The Beatles? Yes, what it looks like we're getting is another promotional item for the band's album catalogue. I'm easily frustrated and I'm old. I'm not ready to say "It's better than nothing". I never expected anything to be a comprehensive as The Beatles Anthology. And, realistically, no other rock band was ever going to get that treatment. I'll admit, when I first heard it was a Disney+ exclusive, I was hoping for at least a two part doc. But, again realistically, I'm not sure if the demand warrants it. Hopefully, if anything, this will shine a light on the band, and I'm at least hoping it shows the pubic at large that there was life after Good Vibrations.
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Post by kds on Apr 10, 2024 12:56:38 GMT
I decided to Google him out of curiosity and he's in that band One Republic that I happen to hate. I think they're just one of those faceless, bland pop-rock groups of the 2000s. But, I don't want to be overly negative. At least he's not in Imagine Dragons. Yeah, I knew he had been in One Republic, which is one of those bands I can't think of a song by, and don't recognize when I listen ... except as one of those awful 00s bands like you mentioned. But I was (am, I suppose) willing to cut him slack or give him credit for his massive resume with some heavy-hitters. That performance Sheriff posted, though. Gawd, it makes me hate him. The ultimate douche, from the holey t-shirt to the faux-emotive squawking, to the facial expressions. I agree. I couldn't even watch the whole thing. It wasn't worth my time.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 10, 2024 13:11:44 GMT
I wouldn't say "who cares?" but I would say "who's surprised?" And the reason is, the book is an official book, i.e., it's a promotional item. It's a KISS lunchbox, basically (but bigger, heavier, and more expensive). No official documentary or book is ever going to cover the details of some of those things we want to know about in a way that feels honest or satisfying because their primary purpose isn't to create a complete, accurate historical record, but to sell Beach Boys product. With very few exceptions, music docs rarely get into the nitty gritty that die hards like us really want to see covered. I'm going to respectfully disagree on that ^ point, kds. Just thinking of some documentaries I've seen - Johnny Cash, The Doors/Jim Morrison, Pink Floyd/Syd Barrett, Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, The Clash, KISS, Arthur "Killer" Kane of The New York Dolls, the various Beatles, Ozzy Osbourne, Nirvana, The Who, David Crosby, and Bob Dylan - they get pretty nitty gritty. Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys take no backseat to those artists when it comes to sensationalism. And, again, I do find some merit in covering things outside the music, how they influence the music.
I wanted to address something Kapitan posted - "I'll say this: my bet is the best documentary ever will end up being produced by an outsider..." He posted more than that but I think the "outsider" part is relevant. As I posted above, I was holding out hope for/with Iconic, but I was also holding out hope for other, acclaimed film makers like Martin Scorsese, Ken Burns, and Spike Lee. They are not only fans of music, but they have a record, a history of brilliant documentaries.
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Post by kds on Apr 10, 2024 13:15:42 GMT
With very few exceptions, music docs rarely get into the nitty gritty that die hards like us really want to see covered. I'm going to respectfully disagree on that ^ point, kds. Just thinking of some documentaries I've seen - Johnny Cash, The Doors/Jim Morrison, Pink Floyd/Syd Barrett, Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, The Clash, KISS, Arthur "Killer" Kane of The New York Dolls, the various Beatles, Ozzy Osbourne, Nirvana, The Who, David Crosby, and Bob Dylan - they get pretty nitty gritty. Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys take no backseat to those artists when it comes to sensationalism. And, again, I do find some merit in covering things outside the music, how they influence the music.
I wanted to address something Kapitan posted - "I'll say this: my bet is the best documentary ever will end up being produced by an outsider..." He posted more than that but I think the "outsider" part is relevant. As I posted above, I was holding out hope for/with Iconic, but I was also holding out hope for other, acclaimed film makers like Martin Scorsese, Ken Burns, and Spike Lee. They are not only fans of music, but they have a record, a history of brilliant documentaries. To be honest, I never really thought the docs I've seen on Ozzy, Pink Floyd / Syd Barrett, The Doors, The Who, etc were really that in depth. They all basically touched on the same talking points most fans already knew.
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Post by Kapitan on Apr 10, 2024 13:23:42 GMT
I didn't have in mind those kinds of big-name movie producers/directors when I said "outsider," and I don't think a doc would happen with any of them unless it were an officially sanctioned one. My prediction meant outsider more like some superfan, someone with no industry or band connections whatsoever, who obsessed over the available content and assembled a doc from that.
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