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Post by Kapitan on Mar 10, 2023 12:28:07 GMT
Moving along (though you can feel free to keep going on WIBN, too):
Track #2: You Still Believe In Me (B. Wilson, T. Asher)
I know perfectly well I'm not where I should be. I've been very aware you've been patient with me. Every time we break up, you bring back your love to me. And after all I've done to you, how can it be you still believe in me?
I try hard to be more what you want me to be, but I can't help how I act when you're not here with me. I try hard to be strong, but sometimes I fail myself. And after all I've promised you so faithfully, you still believe in me.
I wanna cry.
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Post by kds on Mar 10, 2023 14:19:46 GMT
A bit of a jump from the young love theme of Wouldn't It Be Nice.
Good, introspective lyrics to this one.
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Post by Kapitan on Mar 10, 2023 15:00:15 GMT
I love these lyrics, too. And when you look at them, you realize how few there are. Two verses, and a one-sentence chorus.
Where I think this flows naturally from WIBN thematically (not necessarily in a narrative fashion; I've never thought Pet Sounds was that kind of concept album) is the intensity of the emotions, which I still associate with the late adolescent/very early adulthood spirit of WIBN. But of course, this is the flip-side of that exhuberance; this is sheer despair.
In both cases, there is a real self-absorption, the kind of relative narcisissm that I think is normal for those kinds of intense emotion for people in those years of their lives. "You Still Believe in Me" could almost be thought of as the patriarch of a whole kind of indie pop, the sensitive boy singer-songwriter endlessly investigating his own depression. It's interesting, because while the narrator is apologetic about the damage he's doing to the relationship, he's focused on himself. Both verses, "I..." Chorus, "I." This isn't a criticism of either the lyric or the narrator. It's just interesting to me. It feels very natural for intense emotions to end up pointed mostly inward.
How typical were these kinds of vulnerabilities in songs by male singers in those years? It seems that while gender roles were changing by the mid-60s, they weren't yet anything close to what we're used to now. YSBIM is very, very vulnerable--like the anti-Mike Love persona.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 10, 2023 16:31:08 GMT
Yeah, the lyrics to "You Still Believe In Me" are great, simple, and very effective. And, Brian could not have delivered them more effectively. As Kapitan mentions, there aren't a lot of lyrics in the song, and, again, Brian's genius turns the song into an all-timer. And, to me, "You Still Believe In Me" is an all-timer.
But - yes, there's a but - lyrically speaking, just lyrically speaking, "You Still Believe In Me" following "Wouldn't It Be Nice" is one of the worst sequencing choices in the history of popular music! It makes no sense. It would've been a no-brainer to place "You Still Believe In Me" somewhere on Side 2, AFTER Brian left, explored life, and realized what he had or left behind. NOT at the beginning of the album!
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Post by kds on Mar 10, 2023 16:38:01 GMT
I can't say that I mind the sequencing here. In fact, I think the contrast between WIBN and You Still Believe In Me works pretty well.
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Post by Kapitan on Mar 10, 2023 17:17:52 GMT
I disagree with you, Sheriff John Stone , about the sequencing, but I understand where that argument comes from. I think it's clear that historically you're looking for more narrative arc in albums than I am. My impression is, you're often looking to build a story, or at least sets of lyrics that could fit into some sort of narrative generally. I just don't think that's necessary. But even in that sense, I don't mind it here. It could be argued as a kind of hot-and-cold, intensely emotional roller coaster. So the narrator is head over heels horny and excited one minute, and tearing his hair out the next minute. He isn't starting from a position of pure innocence, he's already in the relationship to some degree. He isn't 15, he's 19 or 20. WIBN isn't a first date, it's a few months in. Edit - one thing I actually LOVE about the sequencing is the dramatic contrast in the music, while still maintaining a constant sense of youthfulness. The intro to WIBN in its own way is almost as childlike, as music box-like, as YSBIM. So it's like the craftsman with the same toolbox, just with the craftsman on one extreme or another. Musically it flows wonderfully and lyrically it is almost the same kind of thing. Just my thought.
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
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Post by Emdeeh on Mar 10, 2023 21:45:04 GMT
For me, it's less the lyrics and more what they do with them at the end of the song -- specifically the "I want to cry-yi-yi-yi" etc. segueing into the chorale (and bicycle fx).
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Post by carllove on Mar 11, 2023 1:48:26 GMT
I don’t think Pet Sounds would work as well as a album if it were sequenced by the natural order of events. The fact that you are immediately taken from the optimistic, happy, longing of “perfect” love to the utter reality of the difficulty of maintaining that love months or years later, is jarring, heartbreaking and sheer genius. The juxtaposition of the themes of the songs, highlights the feelings expressed in each song. Without that contrast - the depth of those emotions - especially in “Young Still Believe In Me”, would not feel as deep.
While everyone is emphasizing the “young love” aspect of this album - this particular songs lyrics encompass all age groups. My husband is 53 and I am 60 - and this is totally something he would sing to me and to which I can totally relate. When you find your person, you find their good, even when they can’t believe you can, because they know they have made things difficult. It is the beauty of love - and it’s timeless.
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Post by kds on Mar 11, 2023 2:21:47 GMT
For me, it's less the lyrics and more what they do with them at the end of the song -- specifically the "I want to cry-yi-yi-yi" etc. seguing into the chorale (and bicycle fx). I love that part. That's what really turns a good song to an all timer.
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Post by carllove on Mar 11, 2023 2:25:06 GMT
For me, it's less the lyrics and more what they do with them at the end of the song -- specifically the "I want to cry-yi-yi-yi" etc. seguing into the chorale (and bicycle fx). I love that part. That's what really turns a good song to an all timer. I do agree that the ending of that song really brings it all home. Dang - so much greatness in one album - I want to cry thinking about it!
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Post by kds on Mar 11, 2023 2:27:53 GMT
I love that part. That's what really turns a good song to an all timer. I do agree that the ending of that song really brings it all home. Dang - so much greatness in one album - I want to cry thinking about it! I decided to listen to Pet Sounds earlier today. Disc 2 of The River, McCartney, Pet Sounds, and Maiden's Senjustu. Made for a nice Friday.
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Post by carllove on Mar 11, 2023 2:35:55 GMT
I do agree that the ending of that song really brings it all home. Dang - so much greatness in one album - I want to cry thinking about it! I decided to listen to Pet Sounds earlier today. Disc 2 of The River, McCartney, Pet Sounds, and Maiden's Senjustu. Made for a nice Friday. I hung out in my office today - so I was able to music binge in between meetings and visits inside the hospital to take care of some odds and ends and to touch base with the staff. I have the DCC gold Pet Sounds CD in my car - so I played the beginning of that on my way to work in preparation for todays topic - since that version is so much better than the Apple Music version. A little McCartney, for the same purpose, then back to Steely Dan “Can’t Buy A Thrill”. Good music just makes the day so much better!
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Post by lonelysummer on Mar 11, 2023 6:11:20 GMT
I think it's quite normal to be totally self absorbed until the time comes that you have children. (Note: I am just guessing on this, because I don't have any children of my own, just basing it on the sacrifices I saw my parents make, and others make for their kids). It is something we associate with being 16 years old, but it can go on many, many years after that (yes, judge, I am guilty as charged). The thing I was not ready for as a teenager was the change from the first couple of months of being in love, where everything is sunny, bright, happy, positive - to the moment where you are dropped back down into reality, and you start to see the flaws in the one you love, you start to have disagreements; not that you don't love anymore, but it's basically showing you where things are going to be if you stay together. Not every day will be wonderful; there will be times when you want a night out with the boys (or the girls), people that understand this are the ones that stay together. Sadly, most of the fools I grew up with would give up when the going got a little rough. As they got older, some got wiser. Some are still playing the game. One of my favorite songs is "Always On My Mind", first recorded by Elvis Presley, popularized by Willie Nelson. It's a sad song, and plays with your emotions. If you focus on what the lyrics actually say, the guy is a scoundrel! "Maybe I didn't treat you, quite as good as I should have"....ya think??? "Maybe I didn't love you, quite as often as I should have"...well, that's debatable. "Little things I should have said and done, I just never took the time"...yeah, well who's fault is that? Oh, but you're supposed to feel comforted because "you were always on my mind, you were always on my mind". "Maybe I didn't hold you, all those lonely, lonely times, and I guess I never told you I'm so happy that you're mine, if I made you feel second best, girl I'm so sorry I was blind"...yeah, let's see how far this apology gets you this time, buster. "You were always on my mind"..I know, I know..."you were always on my mind". "Tell me, tell me that your sweet love hasn't died, give me just one more chance to keep you satisfied'...why should I? You never did what you were supposed to do before, why should I believe it will be different this time?" "You were always on my mind...blah blah blah". Sometimes people get a second chance. Many times they don't. The protagonist in "You Still Believe In Me" probably will, but that's only because he's found the most amazing girl in the world!
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Post by Kapitan on Mar 11, 2023 12:39:28 GMT
While everyone is emphasizing the “young love” aspect of this album - this particular songs lyrics encompass all age groups. My husband is 53 and I am 60 - and this is totally something he would sing to me and to which I can totally relate. When you find your person, you find their good, even when they can’t believe you can, because they know they have made things difficult. It is the beauty of love - and it’s timeless. I agree with you. For me, it feels like "young love" probably because of the sequencing: coming right out of the obviously youthful WIBN, it just has me in that frame of mind. But you're correct that the feeling or lesson is timeless.
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Post by B.E. on Mar 12, 2023 0:54:38 GMT
"Wouldn't It Be Nice"As for the technical side, well, I think that's great, too. The rhymes don't seem forced; the biggest offender in that respect might be "happy times together we've been spending," which is quite an awkward construction. But in the grand scheme of the song, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. It is an awkward construction, but sometimes that can make for a more memorable line (in a good way). We're about to come up on another example of that in "That's Not Me". Musically, my favorite part of the song might be the bridge, which has a really unusual chord progression (whereas the rest of the song mostly follows a stock I-IV-ii-V pattern). That might also be my favorite part of the lyrics. I love the rhythmic cadence of maybe if we think and wish and hope and pray it..." the key terms being accented parts of a swinging beat of ands and its. It hammers in the whole point of the song: think, wish, hope, pray. That's my favorite lyric in the song! Rhythmically, it's great, and I think the word choice and placement has probably been taken for granted. Try rearranging them, or substituting a word or two...or worse, just omit one. Another line I'd like to comment on is this one: I think that's a very clever line! In Brian's case, though, I never thought his songs were primarily about physical love. Brian's songs were more concerned with the heart. Yeah, generally, I think I'm with ya. I think his lyrics tended to be more innocent. Certainly during this earlier period. Lastly, I'd like to agree with the idea that these lyrics perfectly fit the music. I think these lyrics are great. The whole album's lyrics are great! Edit: I also think the "then we'd be happy" line is somewhat interesting. As in - wait, you're not happy now? Like, I know you're excited for more, and for the future, but you're still happy together otherwise, right?
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