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Post by Kapitan on Aug 23, 2022 19:37:47 GMT
The talk of Pacific Ocean Blue had me thinking about the Beach Boys and their writing partners: Dennis co-wrote just 3 of that album's 12 songs with other Beach Boys ("River Song" with Carl; "Pacific Ocean Blues" with Mike; and "Rainbows" with Carl and Stephen Kalinich). While he sometimes wrote with other Beach Boys--Carl, Mike, uncredited Brian--he more often wrote alone or with outside collaborators.
I was thinking about whether each member's best work tended to come from internal or external collaborations (or fully solo work, for that matter). I also wonder (though I have a guess) as to whether their better internal collaborations tended to be earlier or later. (I'm guessing it there would turn out to be very few really good internal collaborations after, say, Holland.)
Has anyone ever paid much attention to this, or dug into it? Who had the highest percentage of in-band collaborations, or the lowest, among their writing credits? Whose work was notably better or worse when working within versus without the band? Which band members combined to write the best material together?
It seems relatively safe to say that the greatest internal collaborations came from Brian Wilson and Mike Love, and that most of those happened before Pet Sounds (though there were some really good ones that came later, too). But were those Brian's best songs overall? I feel pretty safe saying they were Mike's.
What's the point of this thread? Is there a call to action? Ummm ... I don't know. There were a bunch of questions in that third paragraph, and one in the fourth. And I think the overall topic might imply a few others. So ... discuss!
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 23, 2022 23:40:02 GMT
As I survey Brian's collaborators/co-songwriters during his Beach Boys' years, it appears that no matter who Brian wrote with, the results were excellent. Love, Christian, Asher, Parks, Rieley - and even Gary Usher co-authored a few classics. It will always be debatable who the "best" collaborator was depending on the listener's preference (of style of music). I'll go out on a limb, and not a very long one, and say that Brian's contributions were overwhelming musical, and the collaborators were mainly lyrical, though we know that each one contributed something to the music, too.
Looking at Dennis and Carl, I think the same is true with them. They were the "music men", and they employed collaborators for the lyrics. I don't know if Dennis and Carl lacked confidence and/or ambition when it came to writing lyrics, or like Brian, they knew their strengths and spent their time and effort on the music end. When you look at Dennis's Beach Boys' music and his solo music, almost every song has a co-writer. About the only one of those I didn't really appreciate was Carli Munoz. Carli wrote some good stuff, but I understand he wrote/co-wrote a lot of Bambu and I'm not a big fan of that material. Looking at Carl Wilson's songs, with The Beach Boys you have a lot of Jack Rieley, and with his solo albums you have primarily Myrna Smith. So, in that respect, Carl resembled Dennis. I guess the Wilsons just thought they didn't have "the chops" to write good lyrics for their songs. When Brian wrote his own lyrics, sometimes it was because there was nobody around, with The Beach Boys out on the road.
I won't even address Mike or Al as I don't take them seriously as songwriters.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 24, 2022 12:09:40 GMT
I won't even address Mike or Al as I don't take them seriously as songwriters. If songwriter includes the lyrical side--which it has to!--I don't think you can exclude Mike as a songwriter.
Speaking of those two, though, I find it odd how rarely they wrote together, especially in the '70s. After all, this is when the band apparently had split into the pro- and anti-drug factions, and Mike was keepin' it clean with Al Jardine. You'd have thought when they had those separate planes, or when they were together in the studios (especially MIU), that they might have found one another as the most convenient (or coherent...awake) sounding boards for one another.
But if I'm not mistaken, the only times they cowrote without others' involvement were "Don't Go Near the Water" (which I like a lot) and "Kona Coast." Even on the California Sage suite, they didn't have credits on one another's contributions. They did write together with Wilsons' involvement from time to time: "He Come Down" and "All This is That," for example.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 24, 2022 12:30:13 GMT
I won't even address Mike or Al as I don't take them seriously as songwriters. If songwriter includes the lyrical side--which it has to!--I don't think you can exclude Mike as a songwriter.
Speaking of those two, though, I find it odd how rarely they wrote together, especially in the '70s. After all, this is when the band apparently had split into the pro- and anti-drug factions, and Mike was keepin' it clean with Al Jardine. You'd have thought when they had those separate planes, or when they were together in the studios (especially MIU), that they might have found one another as the most convenient (or coherent...awake) sounding boards for one another.
But if I'm not mistaken, the only times they cowrote without others' involvement were "Don't Go Near the Water" (which I like a lot) and "Kona Coast." Even on the California Sage suite, they didn't have credits on one another's contributions. They did write together with Wilsons' involvement from time to time: "He Come Down" and "All This is That," for example.
Yes, I can. I am choosing to.
No, seriously, I really don't have much interest in Mike's songwriting contributions; I think they were minor and lightweight. And, to repeat/clarify, I think his contributions to Brian's songs and others' were overwhelmingly lyrical and not much more (despite Mike claiming so). Yeah, there might've been a line here or a phrase there, but...
If you want to discuss or analyze Mike's lyrical contributions, sure, he had his moments, some excellent and some pedestrian. But as a songwriter musically, he barely made a dent or a difference in the catalogue. Am I being too tough on Mike?
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 24, 2022 12:35:28 GMT
No, I don't think that's too tough on Mike, I think it's too narrow a definition of songwriting. I think being a lyricist is being (half of) a songwriter. Pop songs, after all, usually comprise music and lyrics. And so for a decade there, Mike was a really good songwriter.
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Post by kds on Aug 24, 2022 12:35:45 GMT
If songwriter includes the lyrical side--which it has to!--I don't think you can exclude Mike as a songwriter.
Speaking of those two, though, I find it odd how rarely they wrote together, especially in the '70s. After all, this is when the band apparently had split into the pro- and anti-drug factions, and Mike was keepin' it clean with Al Jardine. You'd have thought when they had those separate planes, or when they were together in the studios (especially MIU), that they might have found one another as the most convenient (or coherent...awake) sounding boards for one another.
But if I'm not mistaken, the only times they cowrote without others' involvement were "Don't Go Near the Water" (which I like a lot) and "Kona Coast." Even on the California Sage suite, they didn't have credits on one another's contributions. They did write together with Wilsons' involvement from time to time: "He Come Down" and "All This is That," for example.
Yes, I can. I am choosing to.
No, seriously, I really don't have much interest in Mike's songwriting contributions; I think they were minor and lightweight. And, to repeat/clarify, I think his contributions to Brian's songs and others' were overwhelmingly lyrical and not much more (despite Mike claiming so). Yeah, there might've been a line here or a phrase there, but...
If you want to discuss or analyze Mike's lyrical contributions, sure, he had his moments, some excellent and some pedestrian. But as a songwriter musically, he barely made a dent or a difference in the catalogue. Am I being too tough on Mike?
Considering how many songs Mike had lyrical input on during The Beach Boys mega hits era, I think he deserves some credit. Yeah, he's not Dylan, Townshend, Lennon, or Waters, but he really didn't have to be.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 24, 2022 12:42:22 GMT
Yes, I can. I am choosing to.
No, seriously, I really don't have much interest in Mike's songwriting contributions; I think they were minor and lightweight. And, to repeat/clarify, I think his contributions to Brian's songs and others' were overwhelmingly lyrical and not much more (despite Mike claiming so). Yeah, there might've been a line here or a phrase there, but...
If you want to discuss or analyze Mike's lyrical contributions, sure, he had his moments, some excellent and some pedestrian. But as a songwriter musically, he barely made a dent or a difference in the catalogue. Am I being too tough on Mike?
Considering how many songs Mike had lyrical input on during The Beach Boys mega hits era, I think he deserves some credit. Yeah, he's not Dylan, Townshend, Lennon, or Waters, but he really didn't have to be. I do give Mike credit for his lyrical contributions with Brian and some other Beach Boys. It's the MUSICAL part of his songwriting that I'm not giving as much credit as I'm sure Mike does. Yeah, he could come up with a "Big Sur" every great while, but, as a songwriter, I place him WELL BELOW Brian, Dennis, and Carl. And Bruce!
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Post by kds on Aug 24, 2022 12:44:10 GMT
Considering how many songs Mike had lyrical input on during The Beach Boys mega hits era, I think he deserves some credit. Yeah, he's not Dylan, Townshend, Lennon, or Waters, but he really didn't have to be. I do give Mike credit for his lyrical contributions with Brian and some other Beach Boys. It's the MUSICAL part of his songwriting that I'm not giving as much credit as I'm sure Mike does. Yeah, he could come up with a "Big Sur" every great while, but, as a songwriter, I place him WELL BELOW Brian, Dennis, and Carl. And Bruce! I guess I'm with Kapitan in that I feel lyrics make up a good portion of being a songwriter. Which is why I'd place Mike above Carl at least. Probably Bruce too (at least in terms of Beach Boys output).
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 24, 2022 14:49:18 GMT
Anyway, it seems to me odd that other than Brian Wilson and Mike Love, despite all the other Beach Boys being songwriters to some extent or another, and while all worked with other writers more often than not, none tended to work with other Beach Boys. Instead it was most often Jack Rieley, or Daryl Dragon, or Ron Altbach, or Gregg Jakobson, or Stephen Kalinich, or Geoffrey Cushing-Murray, or ... you get the idea.
There is one exception, which is Blondie and Ricky working together on 100% of their Beach Boys songs: two just the two of them; one (We Got Love) with Mike; and one (Leaving This Town) with Carl and Mike. But with only four songs, there isn't a big sample size.
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