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Post by Kapitan on Jul 30, 2022 21:26:21 GMT
Every so often, it strikes me that Beach Boys fandom seems to skew male, strangely, both in what might be described as the stereotypically masculine Love and the stereotypically feminine Wilson factions.
Obviously I don't mean the fan base is exclusively male, as proven by our own membership on this board, not to mention any casual scanning of any of the bands' crowds at shows. But it seems to me that in all cases, it's more men than women.
And I also don't mean to be overly rigid in these stereotypes of masculine and feminine that I've already named. But I think it's fair to say that Love's lyrics and overall style seem to fit with more traditional understandings of masculinity, while Wilson's seem to incorporate aspects of traditional understandings of femininity. In neither case do I mean this as an insult or a compliment, but just as reality.
I'm curious about this in a few ways.
1. Am I correct, do you think?
2. If so, why is this the case?
I'm curious about any- and everyone's opinions, but maybe especially those of the women of the board.
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Post by kds on Jul 31, 2022 0:56:09 GMT
In my experience discussing music both in real life and on the internet, for whatever reason, music geekdom in general seems to be a male-centric thing.
My wife enjoys The Beach Boys, but I know if I start getting too in the weeds with conversation about the band, her eyes will glaze over a bit.
I feel like there are probably just as many females and males who enjoy them, but males seem more likely to sit around and talk about the music and debate this album vs that album, yada yada.
In my experience, women are more prone to discuss real life in conversation, where as men...we like bullshit. We'll get together and talk for hours about music, movies, sports, whatever.
When I see my friends, my wife will ask "so what's new with them?" My response - "I dunno, we were talking about Jaws and the Orioles."
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
Posts: 520
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Post by Emdeeh on Jul 31, 2022 3:38:09 GMT
My experience as a female BB fan: In the early days -- the teen mag era -- the fans were mostly female. Some where around the later '60s, the audience changed, much as rock 'n' roll gave way to rock.
I don't see the Wilson-Love dichtomy so clearly in terms of fan stereotypes.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 31, 2022 11:36:49 GMT
I don't see the Wilson-Love dichtomy so clearly in terms of fan stereotypes. I don't see it in terms of fan stereotypes, either. I meant a person could see their personalities or writing styles along more gendered stereotypes (yet both seem to have disproportionately male fan bases regardless).
Interesting you mentioned the early years as being more female, because I was thinking that it seems to me--totally anecdotally--that it seems more common for younger girls to be obsessive mega-fans than grown women, while with guys they seem to hang on to it or even grow into it as adults.
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Post by carllove on Jul 31, 2022 12:40:20 GMT
In my experience discussing music both in real life and on the internet, for whatever reason, music geekdom in general seems to be a male-centric thing. My wife enjoys The Beach Boys, but I know if I start getting too in the weeds with conversation about the band, her eyes will glaze over a bit. I feel like there are probably just as many females and males who enjoy them, but males seem more likely to sit around and talk about the music and debate this album vs that album, yada yada. In my experience, women are more prone to discuss real life in conversation, where as men...we like bullshit. We'll get together and talk for hours about music, movies, sports, whatever. When I see my friends, my wife will ask "so what's new with them?" My response - "I dunno, we were talking about Jaws and the Orioles." I think kds nailed it. The geekier the board - the less female presence I see (thinking of Hoffman). This board seems to have more females than most, which could be partly due to the fact that we go “off topic” quite a bit, and the group is smaller, so we kind of “know” each other, which makes it less intimidating and more personal. Men seem to have more confidence in their opinions, rather right or wrong, whereas a lot of Women will back down or just disappear at the first challenge. Still - I think most of the women here have stronger personality types and enough self confidence to hang out with the boys and not think of any criticism as a personal attack. Then again, yesterday as I was canning all day, then my daughter came home and asked “What’s for dinner”, I started wondering if it’s just the fact that Women are too darned busy keeping their households running to spend time on message boards.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jul 31, 2022 12:56:32 GMT
Every so often, it strikes me that Beach Boys fandom seems to skew male, strangely, both in what might be described as the stereotypically masculine Love and the stereotypically feminine Wilson factions.
Obviously I don't mean the fan base is exclusively male, as proven by our own membership on this board, not to mention any casual scanning of any of the bands' crowds at shows. But it seems to me that in all cases, it's more men than women.
And I also don't mean to be overly rigid in these stereotypes of masculine and feminine that I've already named. But I think it's fair to say that Love's lyrics and overall style seem to fit with more traditional understandings of masculinity, while Wilson's seem to incorporate aspects of traditional understandings of femininity. In neither case do I mean this as an insult or a compliment, but just as reality.
I'm curious about this in a few ways.
1. Am I correct, do you think?
2. If so, why is this the case?
I'm curious about any- and everyone's opinions, but maybe especially those of the women of the board.
I think you basically nailed it or summed it up nicely with your opening post. As much as we recognize and praise the volume of music that The Beach Boys released post-1967 (even post-1965), let's be honest - for most Beach Boys' fans, the material that attracted/attracts them and is the most popular is the surfing, cars, and girls-related genre. That rock and roll, combined with the Love/Christian/Usher lyrics, attracted more males - not that females did not appreciate it. It was just the nature of the music and the subject matter. I'm not even sure the split - males vs. females - on the ballads is much closer; closer but not overwhelmingly so. Guys could certainly relate to Brian (or Mike) singing the deeper, emotional ballads, too. It wasn't all hedonistic fun.
I think there was/is another factor at play, and that was the "boy band" dynamic. While there were certainly young boy/young men groups in the 1950s, the early-mid 1960s was really the birth of the boy bands. And, I think many boys vicariously lived through them. They wanted to live the lyrics, they wanted to pick up a guitar and form a band, they wanted to be a rock & roller, they wanted to be cool, they wanted to be THEM! It was a lot easier for Joe Sixpack to be Mike Love or Dennis Wilson than Frank Sinatra...or Elvis Presley. Cruise the strip, buy a guitar, wear a neat jacket, find a girl...that's the life!
I also don't want to be overly rigid in stereotyping, but I always thought the female perspective in those days was more "having a crush" on their favorite rocker than living out the music - or even...loving the music (and, boy, is that gonna get me in trouble ). Did female Beach Boys' fans like Dennis Wilson for his drumming? Dennis barely sang a note in concert, and he went albums without a lead vocal, yet in numerous interviews, the various Beach Boys talked about how the girls went wild for Dennis. It couldn't have been for his music/lyrics. I almost liken it to the way girls swooned over an Elvis Presley, Paul Anka, Ricky Nelson, Frankie Avalon, Tom Jones, and later, David Cassidy.
I have to end defensively (I'm already in deep sh--). I'm not saying that females didn't or couldn't appreciate The Beach Boys as much as males, or even in the same way. They could and did and do. I'm just talking about an overall different way, and THE NUMBERS/PERCENTAGES might show that as well. Whew.
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Post by carllove on Jul 31, 2022 13:20:47 GMT
I also don't want to be overly rigid in stereotyping, but I always thought the female perspective in those days was more "having a crush" on their favorite rocker than living out the music - or even...loving the music (and, boy, is that gonna get me in trouble ). Did female Beach Boys' fans like Dennis Wilson for his drumming? Dennis barely sang a note in concert, and he went albums without a lead vocal, yet in numerous interviews, the various Beach Boys talked about how the girls went wild for Dennis. It couldn't have been for his music/lyrics. I almost liken it to the way girls swooned over an Elvis Presley, Paul Anka, Ricky Nelson, Frankie Avalon, Tom Jones, and later, David Cassidy.
I have to end defensively (I'm already in deep sh--). I'm not saying that females didn't or couldn't appreciate The Beach Boys as much as males, or even in the same way. They could and did and do. I'm just talking about an overall different way, and THE NUMBERS/PERCENTAGES might show that as well. Whew. Well Sheriff - When I was 10, I bought Tiger Beat and listened to Donny Osmond - then I discovered the Beatles and The Rolling Stones. The only member of either group I even found remotely attractive was Brian Jones - and he was dead. Now I do have to admit that my fondness for Duran Duran may have started with their appearance, but the music was still good. There is also a fan page on Facebook where hundreds of Women, including myself, swoon and comment on pictures of Carl Wilson. So you might have a bit of a point. Still - I pay to see 80 year old men play Beach Boys songs - so I doubt I am there to swoon (well, then again, I may have shouted out “I love you Bruce” a few too many times last time I saw Mike’s band.)
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 31, 2022 13:27:41 GMT
Still - I pay to see 80 year old men play Beach Boys songs - so I doubt I am there to swoon (well, then again, I may have shouted out “I love you Bruce” a few too many times last time I saw Mike’s band.)
To be fair, Sheriff John Stone was talking about aggregate averages. So it's not so different than your note that maybe women are too busy making sure their households are running properly. There are exceptions to that, too (said the guy who has always been the primary shopper and cook regardless of living situation).
I wonder if there is any research on obsessive hobbies of adults, broken down by gender. (I'm sure there must be.) If so, I'd bet it skews male. Therein might be the distinction: when it goes from musical appreciation and enjoyment (which I can't imagine being gender-specific) to obsessive hobbies.
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Post by carllove on Jul 31, 2022 13:34:15 GMT
Still - I pay to see 80 year old men play Beach Boys songs - so I doubt I am there to swoon (well, then again, I may have shouted out “I love you Bruce” a few too many times last time I saw Mike’s band.)
To be fair, Sheriff John Stone was talking about aggregate averages. So it's not so different than your note that maybe women are too busy making sure their households are running properly. There are exceptions to that, too (said the guy who has always been the primary shopper and cook regardless of living situation).
I wonder if there is any research on obsessive hobbies of adults, broken down by gender. (I'm sure there must be.) If so, I'd bet it skews male. Therein might be the distinction: when it goes from musical appreciation and enjoyment (which I can't imagine being gender-specific) to obsessive hobbies.
When I used to collect antique bisque dolls, I was always amazed that the ratio of men to women at clubs, shows and auctions was about 50/50. It would seem that there should have been way more women. Then there is my husband, who really needs a hobby!
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Post by kds on Jul 31, 2022 16:20:26 GMT
Still - I pay to see 80 year old men play Beach Boys songs - so I doubt I am there to swoon (well, then again, I may have shouted out “I love you Bruce” a few too many times last time I saw Mike’s band.)
To be fair, Sheriff John Stone was talking about aggregate averages. So it's not so different than your note that maybe women are too busy making sure their households are running properly. There are exceptions to that, too (said the guy who has always been the primary shopper and cook regardless of living situation).
I wonder if there is any research on obsessive hobbies of adults, broken down by gender. (I'm sure there must be.) If so, I'd bet it skews male. Therein might be the distinction: when it goes from musical appreciation and enjoyment (which I can't imagine being gender-specific) to obsessive hobbies.
Somewhat related, I remember years ago either reading, or possibly hearing, someone talk about listening habits of males vs females. According to this (which I'm sorry I can't recall the source or sample size), males tend to mostly decide their music taste around age 12, and for the most part, they'll love that music, or artists, albums, songs, forever. Whereas females tend to move more with the tide with artists, songs, or trends. Just an anecdotal example is my sister. She's gone through many, many musical phases from about age 8 to 38. Other than a couple pop punk acts from the late 1990s, she hasn't really latched onto any artists, and tends to listen to whatever is popular at the time. While I don't think I formed all of my biases at 12, it was around that time I began to move away from Top 40, and more towards classic rock (back when the term classic rock meant rock from the 60s, 70s, and maybe early 80s). It was also around that time that my music geekdom began, specifically with Queen.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 31, 2022 16:25:54 GMT
I've heard that about music tastes, too, though that's one where I'm a big exception. At age 12-15 (which is the range of the years I've heard that tendency about), my two main musical favorites were hard rock/heavy metal and rap. I listen to very little of those now, and in the intervening years I obsessed myself with blues, jazz, Zappa and Beefheart, the Beach Boys, other 60s pop/rock, early 00s indie rock/pop, etc.
Now, I do still have a soft spot for the things I loved in those early years, but I wouldn't say they inform my tastes since to a very big extent.
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Post by kds on Jul 31, 2022 17:03:14 GMT
My 12, I'd grown out of rap. I was already a fan of hard rock and metal, as they were very popular when I was 12 (1992).
I do think I started to expand my horizons in my late teens, getting into Floyd and eventually other proggier, longform stuff as I got into my 20s. Although I've mostly lost interest into some of the newer hard rock bands I got into in my early 20s (ie. Godsmack, Disturbed, Drowning Pool).
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