NFL

[Sheriff John Stone]

The players' salaries - not just in the NFL but in all professional sports - have affected my fandom more than any other factor. I just find it very hard to pull or root for millionaires and billionaires who are playing a sport, a game. They're not players, they're corporations. And then, of course, that leads to my allegiance, or lack of, for the teams(s). Obviously, it wasn't always that way. As a young sports fan who was discovering and playing all sports (from ages 8-18), I never thought there would be the day when I didn't...care. But it's here. Maybe not totally but significantly.

On a side note, fantasy football has renewed my interest in the NFL somewhat. It's amazing what a few dollars, curiosity, and ego will do to you. I'll find myself following games, hanging in longer than I should, and researching players' stats just because I have an "interest" in them. There are players who I wouldn't even know what team they play for who I am watching on a Thursday night at midnight - because I drafted them!

[kds]

Aug 27, 2024 18:35:44 GMT Sheriff John Stone said:

The players' salaries - not just in the NFL but in all professional sports - have affected my fandom more than any other factor. I just find it very hard to pull or root for millionaires and billionaires who are playing a sport, a game. They're not players, they're corporations. And then, of course, that leads to my allegiance, or lack of, for the teams(s). Obviously, it wasn't always that way. As a young sports fan who was discovering and playing all sports (from ages 8-18), I never thought there would be the day when I didn't...care. But it's here. Maybe not totally but significantly.

On a side note, fantasy football has renewed my interest in the NFL somewhat. It's amazing what a few dollars, curiosity, and ego will do to you. I'll find myself following games, hanging in longer than I should, and researching players' stats just because I have an "interest" in them. There are players who I wouldn't even know what team they play for who I am watching on a Thursday night at midnight - because I drafted them!

I've actually come around on the salaries of players.   Owners and TV Networks are printing money due to these sports, so it's only fair that players get a good share of the pot.  What does bother me, however, is when owners cry poor when it's time to pay their players.   The Orioles had a big issue with this when the team was under the ownership of the Angelos family.   Hopefully, things will be different under new ownership.

Back to football.  I kind of get the appeal of fantasy football, and I actually almost joined a league 20 years ago.   That said, I hate it.  Back when I still did my NFL Sundays, I stopped watching PreGame shows because of the barrage of fantasy coverage.   And, Sheriff, I don't mean you when I say this because I've never seen you do it, but fantasy football has bred a new special kind of insufferable football fan who think they know everything about the game, and think that stats are the be all / end all of football.   

[Kapitan]

I'm conflicted about salaries. I'll say this: considering the money involved, I absolutely think the players deserve their fair share. (For a modestly political contextual comment, that's where my slightly left-of-center capitalism comes into play. I'm not such a lefty as to be shouting "down with the capitalists! down with the owners!" but I am someone who believes the people doing or building the thing deserve a big chunk of the profits. So do those who put in the money and run things, sure. But I like some balance. And I've never yet seen Steve Bisciotti take the field against Jeffrey Lurie, or Zygi Wylf make a phenomenal play on John Mara.)

But where I am uneasy is just the overall money involved for everyone, because once something is that big of a business, the game will always be (at best) secondary to the business for everyone involved. Healthy players may sit because of money. Owners may make their teams worse because of money. Advertising has gotten so over-the-top, it's funny thinking back to when there would be controversy over putting little corporate logos in the corner of the screen occasionally. Now not just every stadium, but in-game features like being in the red zone or the halftime show or the instant replay all have corporate sponsorships. Commercials run during games on a split-screen. Ad graphics are literally omnipresent. That's something I get sick of. It's just too much periphery, not enough football.

Speaking of football, though, the Vikings cut their 2022 1st round pick, safety Lewis Cine, yesterday. One of the most disappointing players in team history, based on his draft position and lack of productivity. Despite good size and athleticism, he only played something like 10 games, all in a reserve/special teams capacity, across two seasons. He had a leg injury that shortened his rookie season, but didn't fare well in his second, either. And now he's gone. (Our 2022 draft was really a disaster. We recently gave up on our 2nd-rounder, too.)

[Kapitan]

As for fantasy football, I actually lump that in with the businessification of the game. I loved and played it for years, but as time goes on, I do think a lot of people see the games more as a way to fulfill their gambling than as a sport to enjoy. People care about their players' points, but in many cases are fully ignorant of the game itself. It's funny how many non-fans are "fans." My sister-in-law is a great example, she plays in a fantasy league with my brother (her husband), her brother, and various of their friends. And so each Thanksgiving, she's glued to the screens and her phone watching the games. But it's not about enjoying the games so much as "how's my guy doing?"

With Sheriff John Stone, I know he was actually a high school athlete who played football, so obviously a person like him is different in that respect.

[kds]

Aug 28, 2024 12:16:27 GMT Kapitan said:

I'm conflicted about salaries. I'll say this: considering the money involved, I absolutely think the players deserve their fair share. (For a modestly political contextual comment, that's where my slightly left-of-center capitalism comes into play. I'm not such a lefty as to be shouting "down with the capitalists! down with the owners!" but I am someone who believes the people doing or building the thing deserve a big chunk of the profits. So do those who put in the money and run things, sure. But I like some balance. And I've never yet seen Steve Bisciotti take the field against Jeffrey Lurie, or Zygi Wylf make a phenomenal play on John Mara.)

But where I am uneasy is just the overall money involved for everyone, because once something is that big of a business, the game will always be (at best) secondary to the business for everyone involved. Healthy players may sit because of money. Owners may make their teams worse because of money. Advertising has gotten so over-the-top, it's funny thinking back to when there would be controversy over putting little corporate logos in the corner of the screen occasionally. Now not just every stadium, but in-game features like being in the red zone or the halftime show or the instant replay all have corporate sponsorships. Commercials run during games on a split-screen. Ad graphics are literally omnipresent. That's something I get sick of. It's just too much periphery, not enough football.

Speaking of football, though, the Vikings cut their 2022 1st round pick, safety Lewis Cine, yesterday. One of the most disappointing players in team history, based on his draft position and lack of productivity. Despite good size and athleticism, he only played something like 10 games, all in a reserve/special teams capacity, across two seasons. He had a leg injury that shortened his rookie season, but didn't fare well in his second, either. And now he's gone. (Our 2022 draft was really a disaster. We recently gave up on our 2nd-rounder, too.)

I will say that the in game commercials are a bit much for me.   

The salary thing is funny when you think about it, in that the NFL is the most profitable of the four major US sports leagues, yet the players on average aren't compensated as such.   Granted, the big stars get huge paydays.   

[Kapitan]

Aug 28, 2024 12:48:36 GMT kds said:

Aug 28, 2024 12:16:27 GMT Kapitan said:

I'm conflicted about salaries. I'll say this: considering the money involved, I absolutely think the players deserve their fair share. (For a modestly political contextual comment, that's where my slightly left-of-center capitalism comes into play. I'm not such a lefty as to be shouting "down with the capitalists! down with the owners!" but I am someone who believes the people doing or building the thing deserve a big chunk of the profits. So do those who put in the money and run things, sure. But I like some balance. And I've never yet seen Steve Bisciotti take the field against Jeffrey Lurie, or Zygi Wylf make a phenomenal play on John Mara.)

But where I am uneasy is just the overall money involved for everyone, because once something is that big of a business, the game will always be (at best) secondary to the business for everyone involved. Healthy players may sit because of money. Owners may make their teams worse because of money. Advertising has gotten so over-the-top, it's funny thinking back to when there would be controversy over putting little corporate logos in the corner of the screen occasionally. Now not just every stadium, but in-game features like being in the red zone or the halftime show or the instant replay all have corporate sponsorships. Commercials run during games on a split-screen. Ad graphics are literally omnipresent. That's something I get sick of. It's just too much periphery, not enough football.

Speaking of football, though, the Vikings cut their 2022 1st round pick, safety Lewis Cine, yesterday. One of the most disappointing players in team history, based on his draft position and lack of productivity. Despite good size and athleticism, he only played something like 10 games, all in a reserve/special teams capacity, across two seasons. He had a leg injury that shortened his rookie season, but didn't fare well in his second, either. And now he's gone. (Our 2022 draft was really a disaster. We recently gave up on our 2nd-rounder, too.)

I will say that the in game commercials are a bit much for me.   

The salary thing is funny when you think about it, in that the NFL is the most profitable of the four major US sports leagues, yet the players on average aren't compensated as such.   Granted, the big stars get huge paydays.   

I've also long been surprised that the players' union hasn't gotten guaranteed salaries the way the NBA has. I'd think that, considering the violent nature of the game, that would be a high priority for the union. As it is, if you happen to get hurt, the team can waive you and in many cases not pay you another dime, or in other cases, pay some limited guaranteed amount. Clearly this is great for teams' financial and roster flexibility, so I can also see why the league would try to avoid it--largely for the same reasons the players would want it. (They don't want to be forced to pay millions to an underproducing, possibly banged-up player who they don't see as worth the money.)

[kds]

Aug 28, 2024 13:04:21 GMT Kapitan said:

Aug 28, 2024 12:48:36 GMT kds said:

I will say that the in game commercials are a bit much for me.   

The salary thing is funny when you think about it, in that the NFL is the most profitable of the four major US sports leagues, yet the players on average aren't compensated as such.   Granted, the big stars get huge paydays.   

I've also long been surprised that the players' union hasn't gotten guaranteed salaries the way the NBA has. I'd think that, considering the violent nature of the game, that would be a high priority for the union. As it is, if you happen to get hurt, the team can waive you and in many cases not pay you another dime, or in other cases, pay some limited guaranteed amount. Clearly this is great for teams' financial and roster flexibility, so I can also see why the league would try to avoid it--largely for the same reasons the players would want it. (They don't want to be forced to pay millions to an underproducing, possibly banged-up player who they don't see as worth the money.)

The NFLPA seems fairly weak compared to MLB and NBA.   No guaranteed contracts.   The league expanded the schedule and schedules more and more games on short rest.   

When you think about it, NFL owners have it great.   The league's a cash cow.   If your players get injured, you can recoup of the allotted money.   You only have to keep the lights on for ten games a year.   And, with the cap, there's no pressure to spend to win.   

Edit - And it's a great time to be a Baltimore owner.   The Maryland Stadium Authority received a $1.2B grant for improvements to both stadiums in town.  So, the Orioles and Ravens each get $600M for refurbish their stadiums.   So far, it looks like a lot of the money is going into "luxury fan experiences."  

[Kapitan]

Aug 28, 2024 13:08:16 GMT kds said:

And it's a great time to be a Baltimore owner.   The Maryland Stadium Authority received a $1.2B grant for improvements to both stadiums in town.  So, the Orioles and Ravens each get $600M for refurbish their stadiums.   So far, it looks like a lot of the money is going into "luxury fan experiences."  

Yeah, ownership is a great racket. We had a stretch of stadium insanity in Minnesota over roughly a decade or a bit more, I want to say 2006 to 2018 maybe. Biggest and shiniest was US Bank stadium for the Vikings, which the owners call "the people's stadium." Well, they're right in that the people of Minnesota paid for an awful lot of it ... but we don't own it, they do. Nice deal if you can get it! But also in those years we taxpayers built a new Gophers football stadium, the new Twins' stadium, a new soccer stadium, a new minor league baseball stadium, and refurbished the Wolves' stadium. And honestly I might be missing something. 

And as you said, a lot of the new stadiums or refurbished stadiums, the cost goes into the luxury experiences, which benefit very, very few people: the rich, or people who are attending on corporate dimes. (We occasionally have access to attending games in suites for work reasons. But to me, that actually isn't appealing, because I don't want to be stuck at games--nice suite or not--with colleagues or clients. That's not fun, it's work.) So normal taxpayers are making sure the ultra-rich have a deluxe experience at games? Cool. It's like taxing all of us to send rich kids to Harvard or something!

[kds]

Aug 28, 2024 13:40:12 GMT Kapitan said:

Aug 28, 2024 13:08:16 GMT kds said:

And it's a great time to be a Baltimore owner.   The Maryland Stadium Authority received a $1.2B grant for improvements to both stadiums in town.  So, the Orioles and Ravens each get $600M for refurbish their stadiums.   So far, it looks like a lot of the money is going into "luxury fan experiences."  

Yeah, ownership is a great racket. We had a stretch of stadium insanity in Minnesota over roughly a decade or a bit more, I want to say 2006 to 2018 maybe. Biggest and shiniest was US Bank stadium for the Vikings, which the owners call "the people's stadium." Well, they're right in that the people of Minnesota paid for an awful lot of it ... but we don't own it, they do. Nice deal if you can get it! But also in those years we taxpayers built a new Gophers football stadium, the new Twins' stadium, a new soccer stadium, a new minor league baseball stadium, and refurbished the Wolves' stadium. And honestly I might be missing something. 

And as you said, a lot of the new stadiums or refurbished stadiums, the cost goes into the luxury experiences, which benefit very, very few people: the rich, or people who are attending on corporate dimes. (We occasionally have access to attending games in suites for work reasons. But to me, that actually isn't appealing, because I don't want to be stuck at games--nice suite or not--with colleagues or clients. That's not fun, it's work.) So normal taxpayers are making sure the ultra-rich have a deluxe experience at games? Cool. It's like taxing all of us to send rich kids to Harvard or something!

It stinks, but it's the nature of the beast.   I heard a retired member of the Maryland Stadium Authority on the radio talking about the grant.  And, he said that the $1.2B is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of building new stadia these days.   And the concept of replacing our stadiums sounds nuts, considering they opened in 1992 and 1998 respectively.   But, teams have replaced newer places than that in recent years for all the shiny upgrades that most fans never get to see.   

I've done suites a couple times, and yeah, it's cool.   But, if I'm going to a football game, I wanna be in the crowd, experiencing the weather and the energy.  

[Kapitan]

The whole thing about new, modern, luxury stadiums feels odd to me. I grew up in the era when old stadiums were revered: Wrigley Field, Chicago Stadium, Boston Garden, the Rose Bowl, Madison Square Garden, Williams Arena here in town (Gophers basketball), etc. I know that as a society we just changed what we wanted out of games, and so that meant history was less important than good wifi and massive Jumbotrons and luxury suites, but I still never quite felt any allegiance to those newer priorities.

Business is business, though.

[kds]

Aug 28, 2024 14:09:54 GMT Kapitan said:

The whole thing about new, modern, luxury stadiums feels odd to me. I grew up in the era when old stadiums were revered: Wrigley Field, Chicago Stadium, Boston Garden, the Rose Bowl, Madison Square Garden, Williams Arena here in town (Gophers basketball), etc. I know that as a society we just changed what we wanted out of games, and so that meant history was less important than good wifi and massive Jumbotrons and luxury suites, but I still never quite felt any allegiance to those newer priorities.

Business is business, though.

I get the feeling that sports doesn't embrace its history like it once did.   And, I especially get that impression from younger, more analytically inclined, fans.   

Maybe it's just my getting older, but I don't see or hear the same reverence for classic venues, uniforms, players, etc.   Now, it seems more about bright shiny stadia, new fangled stats, loud and ugly uniforms.   

Oh, and get off my lawn!!  

[kds]

To add to that point, the NFL pretty much goes out of its way to almost dismiss their history prior to the inception of the Super Bowl (1920-1966).

Of the four majors, I think baseball romanticizes its past more than the others, but even that seems to be fading.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I've told this story before. I don't know if it was on this board. If it was, bear with me.

I once saw this segment on ESPN with an actuary who worked for an NFL team. I don't know if he was still employed; probably not. Anyway, he explained in detail how the NFL teams went about justifying and reconciling the rising salaries for the players. He said that, before a player was offered a (new) contract, this actuary or a team of actuaries had to calculate in detail how the salary would ultimately be paid. These actuaries would meet with the owner, GM, and other interested employees of the team and lay out - item for item - what had to be done to meet the increase in salary. The actuary would say things like you have to raise ticket prices x amount of dollars. Raise parking at the stadium x amount of dollars. Charge your vendors (for hot dogs, drinks, etc.) x amount of dollars more. Raise the price x amount for programs. Negotiate more (a bigger cut) for T-shirts, jerseys, hats, and other memorabilia. Cut a certain amount of (selected) players who have big salaries but aren't giving you significant playing time. And then there was the biggie: raise the dollar amount of the broadcasting rights to the games with ESPN, FOX, and CBS. That's where the league (and in turn the owners) makes the big bucks. The networks pay millions and millions and millions of dollars to the NFL to broadcast their games.

What's the moral of the story. We, the fans, ultimately end up paying for the brunt of a player's salary. Through all those things I mentioned, the costs are simply funneled back to us, the fans. You pay more for a ticket, just to park your car, for your watered-down beer, for a hat for your kid, for a t-shirt as a Christmas present. And the biggest item? Do you wonder why your monthly TV cable bill keeps going up? Because the networks have to recoup the money they shelled out to the leagues. Now we have those Thursday night games where you have to purchase Amazon Prime just to have access to the game. The NFL negotiated that deal....for how much that goes right into their pockets? You watch, some day the Super Bowl will be pay-per-view.

Oh, of course the owners do pay for a portion of the players' salaries. But, it's significantly less of a hit to them than it is to the fans. Sometimes it makes me feel like a sucker, but I still have my rights, my free will. I don't have to watch the games, support the leagues. But I would still like to keep my cable TV. Look, I'm still pro-owner. I accept the owner/worker structure. True, their risk is minimal. I get it. Hey, several of the NFL owners purchased their franchise for around $500 million back in the day. Their franchise is now worth over $1 billion dollars...and rising. Pretty good investment, huh. Yes, you're welcome, owners. Don't mention it.

[kds]

Don't forget streaming services. Thursday Night Football is on Prime most weeks. The Christmas Night game will be on Netflix. One of the playoff games last season was a Peacock exclusive.

You know, the more we talk about this, the increasingly casual nature of my fandom is making even more sense.

[Kapitan]

Aug 28, 2024 15:00:07 GMT Sheriff John Stone said:

What's the moral of the story. We, the fans, ultimately end up paying for the brunt of a player's salary. Through all those things I mentioned, the costs are simply funneled back to us, the fans. ...

Oh, of course the owners do pay for a portion of the players' salaries. But, it's significantly less of a hit to them than it is to the fans. 

That's the reality of every business, though. Of course owners don't (usually) pay salaries out of their own fortunes! They pay them out of the business's revenue streams, which are ticket prices, season tickets, suites, corporate licensing, media deals, etc. The owner of my company* doesn't pay me out-of-pocket, either, but through our business's revenue--of which he takes a large share for himself and divides the rest among employees. None of this is a charity! And especially since most fans enjoy most games "for free" (e.g. broadcast TV), the money has to come from somewhere. The old saying goes, when there's no cost for the product, you are the product. In sports, that has always been true: the real money is in the advertising, and the owners sell our eyeballs and ears to advertisers.


*Simplified: my company doesn't have an owner, but various entities that own various aspects of one another. Typically complex corporate structure. But I simplified to make the point.