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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 11, 2022 14:29:39 GMT
I've read those stories/interviews before. Let's just say I'm skeptical about the truthfulness of them. Very bizarre, even for The Beach Boys. However, I don't dispute that those Landy years and the year or two after were nuts, and I will admit/agree that Mike, Carl, and Al were obviously resentful toward Brian because of what Brian was saying and writing in books.
To be clear, most of my "argument" that Brian could've been a Beach Boy and a solo artist is based on the post-1994 years. Things were so much better in Brian's world then, and as I mentioned, the people/musicians who would've played a large part in any relationship between Brian and The Beach Boys would've been assets instead of liabilities. I'm not denying a lot of healing needed to take place, but I still think things could've been worked out. Work with Van Dyke Parks on Orange Crate Art as Brian Wilson, but Imagination should've been a Beach Boys' album. "Present" SMiLE as Brian Wilson, but Getting In Over My Head should've been a Beach Boys' album. Reimagine Gershwin, but That Lucky Old Sun should've been a Beach Boys' album. Do the Disney thing, but No Pier Pressure should've been a Beach Boys' album. Things should've been worked out. Damn dysfunction...
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 11, 2022 14:53:26 GMT
For my own listening pleasure, I totally, absolutely wish he had actually remained a Beach Boy in full all along, and kept them a recording entity when they became a live-only band. For me, there is no doubt that everything (except maybe Smile, depending on whether and how everyone had come around by then) should have been a Beach Boys album. (I consider Orange Crate Art a Van Dyke Parks album, so I exclude that.)
Of course in that world, those albums would have turned out somewhat differently, too: hopefully less of the low-end material, replaced by some of the others' contributions or new collaborations; sadly, probably some embarrassing stuff from Love; ideally no Disney album; etc. It would also mean GIOMH would have been radically different because half of those songs would have been released in the 90s instead of Stars & Stripes. Alternative histories make for a lot of complications!
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Post by B.E. on Nov 12, 2022 2:19:59 GMT
Not really furthering an argument, but just sharing another bit of background info from some of the tumultuous times--nearing the end of the second Landy era--here is a quote from first autobiography writer Todd Gold, as published in a story by Bill Holdship in the Dec 1991 issue of Bay Area Magazine (as republished in Abbott's Back to the Beach).
"I accompanied Brian on the road for a 10-day tour with the Beach Boys during the summer of 1990. He was filling in for Mike Love who was at a TM conference, learning to levitate. When Brian arrived that night he asked Carl to do an interview with me for the book and Carl's response was "let me talk to my attorney." Earlier in May of 1990, shortly after the conservatorship suit was filed Brian flew up to San Francisco for a couple of gigs two nights in a row. He walked backstage to the dressing room and not having seen these guys for months, Mike's response wasn't 'hello,' but rather to walk up to Brian and stand as close as possible, intimidating Brian, and playing up to Brian's fear of Mike. And then the first words out of his mouth were: 'those shoes look hideous.' When Al Jardine walked up and said to Brian: 'what are you doing here?" Brian said 'I work here. These are my songs.' Al was quiet for a moment and then said 'Well, just don't sing like you're a Vegas lounge act.' And Carl didn't say a word to Brian that whole night. He just kept his distance."
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Post by lonelysummer on Nov 12, 2022 9:02:49 GMT
I take the opposite view regarding Smile. That should have been a Beach Boys album. It should have had their voices on it. I'm fine with Imagination and the others being solo Brian. Mike wouldn't have wanted to do an album of 12 BW songs without his input. Do we need to hear Mike sing "Your Imagination"? "South American"? "Morning Beat"? "What I Really Want for Christmas"? I'm saying all this, assuming that in our alternate reality, Carl still dies in 1998. If he had lived, sure, I would have loved for him to sing a few of Brian's new songs - "Where Has Love Been" would have been beautiful with Carl's voice on it; there were moments on TWGMTR that called out for a Carl vocal. I think the Landy years did a lot of damage to Brian's relationships with the other Beach Boys; the autobiography put it all out in the open. Frankly, if I was Carl or Mike, I wouldn't be greeting Brian with open arms and smiles, either. Then Melinda comes along, and she does not seem to have a high opinion of the Beach Boys. Have I ever heard her say anything good about Brian's brothers? I think she believes all the praise should go to Brian alone, she wants his name elevated above all others. I'm sure she saw C50 as a huge compromise; and Mike seems to see it the same way. I think the most disappointing thing is Brian DID join the Beach Boys again in 1996 - so what did we get? Stars and Stripes. A complete waste of time and effort.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 12, 2022 11:32:09 GMT
Do we need to hear Mike sing "Your Imagination"? "South American"? "Morning Beat"? "What I Really Want for Christmas"? Actually at least with TLOS, I can't help but hear where the Beach Boys' voices ought to be. Funny you named "Morning Beat," because YES, I always do listen to that and think Mike belongs on it!
But your other point about him not likely to have wanted to do collections of Brian songs is true. He'd have wanted to co-write or offer his own songs. And you know, he could've made "Mexican Girl" 25% better...
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 12, 2022 12:19:02 GMT
I take the opposite view regarding Smile. That should have been a Beach Boys album. It should have had their voices on it.I'm fine with Imagination and the others being solo Brian. Mike wouldn't have wanted to do an album of 12 BW songs without his input. Do we need to hear Mike sing "Your Imagination"? "South American"? "Morning Beat"? "What I Really Want for Christmas"?
Frankly, if I was Carl or Mike, I wouldn't be greeting Brian with open arms and smiles, either. Then Melinda comes along, and she does not seem to have a high opinion of the Beach Boys. Have I ever heard her say anything good about Brian's brothers? I think she believes all the praise should go to Brian alone, she wants his name elevated above all others. I'm sure she saw C50 as a huge compromise; and Mike seems to see it the same way.
With BWPS, that travesty should NOT have been a Beach Boys' album because their best singer, Carl, who was on a couple of key SMiLE songs, wasn't available. I just think it would've sounded awkward without Carl and 60 year-old Beach Boys. It's bad enough with Brian trying to pull off those songs.
Yes! I do need to hear Mike singing those BW solo songs! ALL of Brian's solo albums would've benefited from The Beach Boys' voices, especially Mike's on the fast songs.
I think a very large part of Brian Wilson not being a Beach Boy for most of the last 30 years can be traced back to Melinda and her...influence.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 12, 2022 12:41:52 GMT
I know this has gone around and around as a topic with Brian, but re Melinda not necessarily having a high opinion of the Beach Boys, I think that can easily be justified. She came into the picture during times when they weren't exactly supportive of him (as a human being). Even if there is blame to go around, whose side is she going to take, her husband's, or Mike Love's? (I name him because Mike was the obvious other power center during the time she has been involved. Al and Bruce don't matter in that respect, and of course Carl died...and wasn't acting like a power broker in the band anyway since the late 70s, or 85 at the latest.)
Why should she say, "You know what you need to do, dear? Find a way to go back to that group led by your cousin, whom you don't like and might be afraid of to some extent, so you can continue to bicker and argue about what to do and how to do it. That seems like the best thing for your well being."?
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 13, 2022 12:42:01 GMT
I know this has gone around and around as a topic with Brian, but re Melinda not necessarily having a high opinion of the Beach Boys, I think that can easily be justified. She came into the picture during times when they weren't exactly supportive of him (as a human being). Even if there is blame to go around, whose side is she going to take, her husband's, or Mike Love's? (I name him because Mike was the obvious other power center during the time she has been involved. Al and Bruce don't matter in that respect, and of course Carl died...and wasn't acting like a power broker in the band anyway since the late 70s, or 85 at the latest.)
Why should she say, "You know what you need to do, dear? Find a way to go back to that group led by your cousin, whom you don't like and might be afraid of to some extent, so you can continue to bicker and argue about what to do and how to do it. That seems like the best thing for your well being."?
And, going around and around even more, I go back to not having effective management or "go-betweens" who could help/assist/lead both...sides...into working out whatever was necessary to co-exist and be productive. And I realize that sounds naive. We are talking about personal issues in addition to professional ones. And, we know that all parties had a lot of issues. The entire Beach Boys' career was full of drama, tension, and conflict. I just find it hard to believe something couldn't have been worked out. Not to rehash my whole premise again, but things had improved in the areas of health, money, and an overall lack of professional pressure. Oh, well...
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 13, 2022 13:06:34 GMT
In the end, it always seems to come back to this for me: we can't possibly know what's best for other people. We try to divine the truth between the lines of stories, interviews, reunion publicity events, etc., but we've never had (and will never have) the fullness of reality exposed to us, and even if we did, we'd be trying to project "what they should have done" based largely on what we want.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 13, 2022 13:20:41 GMT
In the end, it always seems to come back to this for me: we can't possibly know what's best for other people. We try to divine the truth between the lines of stories, interviews, reunion publicity events, etc., but we've never had (and will never have) the fullness of reality exposed to us, and even if we did, we'd be trying to project "what they should have done" based largely on what we want. That's absolutely true. And, I'm basing my entire...point...on the premise that Brian Wilson - in his heart - always wanted to be a Beach Boy, or more specifically, didn't want to stop being one entirely. But, like you said, that's what I wanted...
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 13, 2022 13:25:56 GMT
Exactly: and I see that side of it as wistful and financial, but that otherwise he'd rather not--especially without his brothers. The metaphor I can't get over is, it looks to me like a marriage that's over but without a divorce. You can hang in there, you can hang around, you can drag it out. There are some reasons to do so, but maybe not the right reasons, or not enough reasons. But that's my impression from far, far away.
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Post by lonelysummer on Nov 13, 2022 21:08:37 GMT
David Leaf sure was a proponent of the "Brian needs to go solo" idea. There were several people who said SMiLe should have been a solo album - and I'm talking about back in 66-67. The same people said Love You should have been a solo album. Leaf, in the first edition of his book, described Brian as a prisoner who couldn't escape the Beach Boys. Then Landy comes along (the second time), and starts doing the groundwork for Brian to have a solo career - and only a part time Beach Boy. So as much as Landy and Melinda might disagree on what is appropriate for Brian's life, they wanted Brian out on his own, they didn't want the Beach Boys depending on him to come up with more hits for them. It's a much different situation if we are talking about the Beach Boys circa 1977 or 1988 or 1995 versus 1998 or 2012 or today. A Beach Boys band without Dennis or Carl is probably not the same band in Brian's mind. And his handlers are going to say "why does Brian need to go back to the Beach Boys? He's got two of them in his own band". Mike surely believes "I don't need Brian or Al; I've got the Beach Boys name and we're still working more than any sane 80 year old would want to!"
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 15, 2022 20:53:02 GMT
Since I was adding content from Brian that pointed in one direction, I thought I ought to be fair and add something going the other way, too. I was looking in I Am Brian Wilson for his remarks about TWGMTR, since I didn't really remember many (except the "25% better" crack about the lyrics to "Spring Vacation").
"After the preparing, the actual reunion was pretty straightforward. We met up at Capitol, all the guys, and recorded a version of 'Do It Again.' ... The whole process of recording was a great feeling. You couldn't pretend that time hadn't happened. But the music brought everyone back. You couldn't sing an old melody and not go back there a little bit.
"The reunion was also sad in some ways. Being back with the band made me miss my brothers. When we started, it was a family band, and I was the only part of the family left. ...
"Over a month or so we made a record, That's Why God Made the Radio. That was kind of a reunion all by itself. Joe Thomas came back and worked on it. It wasn't exactly the same as making a solo record. We had to find material that was right for everyone to sing. Joe and I still had a few songs we worked on around the time of Imagination that I didn't think were right for me to do as a solo artist. We got those and finished them. ... The album we ended up with was a good record, though it was different in spirit than any record we ever would have made before. That was partly because of the technology. We put the record together on Pro Tools, which is the modern way of doing things, instead of going into a studio with dozens of musicians.
"I sometimes read in interviews that Mike wants to go into a room with me and write new material for the Beach Boys. But it's just not done that way anymore. That's a '70s idea. At this point, we go with the new way. I write lots in the studio. It's a real musical environment. ...
"The tour wasn't always easy. I had to be Johnny-on-the-spot. I had to get every cue and pay attention to things I hadn't paid attention to in decades. And my back was getting worse and worse ...
"But mostly I had the time of my life. Mostly I loved it. Everyone was together, singing songs we made when we were together, and that made me happy. That made me whole. I remember on one of the tour stops we had dinner. We were all there. Mike was there. If you closed your eyes you could almost forget the year. ...
"The tour ended in a weird way. We had played all the dates we were supposed to, but we were doing such a great job that offers started coming in to extend the tour. I would have done it, but Mike didn't want to do it. He went back to the way things were before, where he was touring with the Beach Boys name. He said he wanted to play smaller markets. And that was the end of the fiftieth reunion."
(Wilson w/ Greenberg, p. 264-269)
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Post by kds on Nov 15, 2022 21:00:38 GMT
I remember reading the book, hoping that Brian would've said a little more about the music on TWGMTR, specifically the final three songs on the album.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 15, 2022 21:09:11 GMT
Me, too. He did say a few things, which I omitted since my focus here was about the experience of working within the band again. But basically all he said was: - TWGMTR was an old song - Spring Vacation started out as an old song that Mike "made 25% better" by rewriting lyrics - That he wrote Bill & Sue and Beaches in Mind. (Literally, that's what he said. "I wrote some songs like TPLoB&S and Beaches in Mind.") - That (presumably the recording of) the record started with Strange World, and moved through other songs like FTtBA and PCH. - And this, about Summer's Gone:
"The last song on the album was 'Summer's Gone.' It was a beautiful melody. It was also one of those songs that people thought was a farewell, like 'When You Wish Upon a Star.' It was definitely nostalgic, but anything we made in 2012 would have been nostalgic. We were looking backward. That's how seasons went. When I sang it, I was thinking of Carl and Dennis and my dad, but it was like 'Caroline, No' also, because I was thinking about younger versions of myself."
(p. 265)
That's by far the most he said about any of the music.
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