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Post by Kapitan on May 6, 2022 13:30:15 GMT
As anyone participating in our various rankings threads, people clearly use different criteria or have different ideas now just of how individual things rate, but of how to rate things more broadly. Using examples here, I'm probably the harshest when it comes to ratings, doling out the lowest scores on average. (That's my impression anyway.) Conversely, I'd guess jk is the most generous, rating things 10s and 9s or not rating them at all (the music-ratings equivalent of "if you can't say something nice, say nothing").
It had me thinking generally, how many "perfect 10" albums do you think there are in the world of popular music of the rock and roll era? Are there few enough that you could list them here? (If so, please do!) Or do you think more or less any great album is a 10, so maybe there are some every year ... maybe quite a few some years, like those late 60s or early 70s years that seem such a golden era? Are most of the 10s congregated among a few legendary artists, or are there a lot of "one-10-wonders" out there?
Lots of questions here, no need to address them all. Rather I'm just kicking off a general topic that you can chime in on however you'd like.
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Post by kds on May 6, 2022 13:44:55 GMT
I think there are quite a few perfect tens, especially in what I truly think is the golden era for album oriented rock in the later half of the 60s, the 1970s, and early 80s. I think CD's are partly to blame for the decline of that era for albums as runtimes for albums spiked from that 35-45 min range to 50, 60, even 70 minutes.
I think you have a select few artists who have multiple tens of their resume - The Beatles, Pink Floyd, The Who, maybe Queen.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on May 6, 2022 19:58:08 GMT
I struggle with "perfect 10" rankings, or just "10" rankings. Not to be anal about it, but for an album to be a "perfect 10", all of the songs on the album have to be, well, 10s. I can think of several great, great albums, but on none of them are all the songs ranked at a 10. It's more possible for an album to be ranked just a "10", because it could conceivably average out to 9.5 and rounded up to a 10.
I'll use one of our favorite and most familiar albums - Pet Sounds - as an example. Certainly, not all 13 songs are 10s ("Let's Go Away For Awhile", "Pet Sounds", maybe "Here Today" aren't 10s are they?), so how can that album be a "Perfect 10". Actually, depending on how some of the weaker songs (yes, I know there aren't any weak songs on the album ), it's hard to average out to 9.5 or higher. Yet, I suppose Pet Sounds is a 10.
I don't want to get weird over it, but you know what I mean. Rankings and ranking systems are so subjective, especially systems that use numbers. I think I actually prefer using *s or stars. It's much easier to rank a truly great album as a *****album. There's more room to play with.
However, in the spirit of the thread, I'll name five "10's", and they certainly aren't...obscure.
The Doors - L.A. Woman The Beach Boys - Pet Sounds The Beatles - Abbey Road Bob Dylan - Bringing It All Back Home Paul McCartney - Band On The Run
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Post by kds on May 6, 2022 20:06:49 GMT
I not sure I'd say that every song needs to be a 10 for an album to get a ten rating. But, at the minimum, all the tracks needs to be at least good, like nothing less than a 7 or 8.
Take an album like A Night at the Opera. To me, songs like Sweet Lady and Lazing on a Sunday Afternoon aren't 10s, but they're also not bad songs, and don't detract from the album. So, I'd still give ANATO a ten, as the full 12 track listening experience is still damn near perfect IMO.
But, take something like Pink Floyd's Meddle album. It's only got six tracks, and two of them - Seamus and San Tropez - border on novelty songs.
I should add that I'm a little more forgiving with concept albums. So, to me, something like Tommy's Holiday Camp isn't enough to hurt the rating on Tommy.
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Post by kds on May 7, 2022 1:29:48 GMT
Here's a short list of perfect 10s for me
The Who - Quadrophenia Blue Oyster Cult - Secret Treaties Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here Black Sabbath - Heaven and Hell Meat Loaf - Bat Out of Hell Bruce Springsteen - Born to Run Van Halen - s/t Deep Purple - In Rock CCR - Cosmo's Factory Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime
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Post by jk on May 7, 2022 9:31:40 GMT
Good call for a thread, Kapitan (as the jk thought process chugs into action): That word "perfect". It reminds me of a sentence from a J.P. Donleavy novel: "The greatest whiteness is flecked with black". I think albums can have peaks and troughs (or greater and lesser moments) and still deserve the adjective "perfect". Surf's Up is a good example in my book, indeed like many Beach Boys albums. There are a few albums I cannot fault in any way, albums that in my view flow seamlessly from start to finish. One is David Crosby's If Only I Could Remember My Name. Another is Santana's debut (and indeed, their kaleidoscopic fourth, Caravanserai). And, closer to home, Pet Sounds. Just a few random thoughts there (my brain's beginning to hurt)...
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Post by Kapitan on May 7, 2022 11:48:44 GMT
Those comments about what "perfect" means in this context all resonate with me, in that I tend to be very literal, to get stuck in semantics. So I have to ask, is it literally true that nothing could improve this album? This album is perfect!?
The answer to that question is never yes.
But I've come to consider the term differently. A perfect 10 doesn't mean a perfect album to me, but an album that warrants that perfect, highest score of 10. It is a distinction to me that changes the meaning from "literally perfect" to "as good as albums get." So they're the kind of albums loaded with great songs (even if not fully comprising great songs), the kind of albums that become reference points and influence other bands, etc.
That said, I'm still pretty stingy with them. I still don't think there are that many out there, and only a few artists/bands have more than one to their name. (Beatles, Dylan ... I'm not sure I'd say anyone else has more than one. But maybe.) Even though I think Pet Sounds might be the best, the most perfect album of all time, I don't think they've got another 10. (Today is probably closest, but it doesn't hit the mark for me. Though I would say they've got several in the next tier, and that's nothing to sneeze at.)
I wonder how many albums I do consider a 10. Is it 10? 20? More? I don't know. I suspect if I really thought about it, I'd get too frustrated, worrying about "mistakes," as if there could be such a thing on such an exercise...
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Post by carllove on May 7, 2022 15:51:25 GMT
My perfect 10 albums - in no particular order:
Pet Sounds - The Beach Boys Abbey Road - The Beatles Dummy - Portishead December’s Children (And Everybody's) - The Rolling Stones Days of Future Passed - The Moody Blues Ambient 1: Music for Airports - Brian Eno Purple - Stone Temple Pilots Kimono My House - Sparks Surrealistic Pillow - Jefferson Airplane Graduation - Kanye West American Gangster - Jay Z In The Court of The Crimson King - King Crimson Close To The Edge - Yes Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd Led Zeppelin (IV) - Led Zeppelin Tapestry - Carole King London Calling - The Clash The Velvet Underground & Nico Jagged Little Pill - Alanis Morissette Exodus - Bob Marley and the Wailers Violator - Depeche Mode
My criteria - An album that you enjoy immensely, has multiple songs that I would rate a 10 and I will play it all of the way through with no skipping and enjoy it all. There might be a few more Beatles albums I could list, but nothing tops Abbey Road. Sunflower might come close to me for The Beach Boys, but I find myself skipping “It’s About Time” and “Got To Know The Woman” more often than not even though those songs aren’t really bad - I love me some Dennis - but not those songs. So as much as I love Sunflower - it fails to meet my personal criteria.
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Post by carllove on May 7, 2022 16:55:40 GMT
I think there are quite a few perfect tens, especially in what I truly think is the golden era for album oriented rock in the later half of the 60s, the 1970s, and early 80s. I think CD's are partly to blame for the decline of that era for albums as runtimes for albums spiked from that 35-45 min range to 50, 60, even 70 minutes. I think you have a select few artists who have multiple tens of their resume - The Beatles, Pink Floyd, The Who, maybe Queen. Yeah - the Beatles didn’t write many stinkers and their great songs are truly amazing. I wouldn’t change a thing on most of their albums. Revolver and Rubber Soul probably should be on my list. For Pink Floyd, I can’t argue against the inclusion of Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall if anyone chooses to include them. Led Zeppelin’s Physical Graffiti is a second 10 I can think of for a legacy group. I wore out the grooves on my copy, back in the day. Oh, my parents hated that album! I could also add a second Kanye West album, because My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is an awesome album that is a good listen all of the way through. He is perhaps the only current artist that I can think of who in my opinion has two possible perfect tens. He might be a nut job, but the man has talent. I don’t listen to much of that genre, but his work stands out for me and I really enjoy it.
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Post by Kapitan on May 7, 2022 17:07:43 GMT
I'm trying to think of albums I'd rate as 10s. And as I made my list, I ended up with way more than I thought I would. (That's what I meant when I said I could imagine it getting out of hand. They're very rare, yes ... but there are a LOT of albums in this world!) As many as there are below, though--about 37-40, depending on how you take some of my "under consideration" ones--I think I'd have at least 10 to 20 times as many 9s, and 100 times as many 8s. That said, collect all the major-label (or even major indie label) albums in the world, and I'm guessing the average rating from me would be about a 4-5.
The Beatles have a good number of them: Rubber Soul, Revolver, Sgt. Pepper, Abbey Road. And if you wanted to include The White Album, I wouldn't fault you, though I don't go quite that high with that one.
Bob Dylan is up there with four of his own: Bringing It All Back Home, Highway 61 Revisited, Blonde on Blonde, Blood on the Tracks.
I'd give three of the four canonical Velvet Underground albums the nod: VU & Nico, s/t, Loaded.
Two for Led Zeppelin: IV and Houses of the Holy.
I'm not sure anyone else has more than one, off the top of my head.
The Beach Boys, Pet Sounds (possibly the most perfect album ever, imo)
Jimi Hendrix Experience, Are You Experienced?
Zappa/Mothers, We're Only In It For The Money The Zombies, O&O
Captain Beefheart & the Magic Band, troutmaskreplica (though I am really considering Safe As Milk)
Harry Nilsson, Nilsson Sings Newman
Lou Reed, Transformer Queen, A Night At the Opera
KISS, Love Gun (sorry, we're not taking any questions at this time, thanks! ) Van Halen, S/T
Squeeze, East Side Story
Bruce Springsteen, Nebraska (but serious consideration for Born to Run)
Michael Jackson, Thriller
Prince, Purple Rain
Paul Simon, Graceland U2, The Joshua Tree Guns n Roses, Appetite For Destruction
The Beastie Boys, Paul's Boutique
Cotton Mather, Kontiki Neutral Milk Hotel, In the Aeroplane Over the Sea Puerto Muerto, See You In Hell
Joanna Newsom, Ys
Herman Dune, Giant Vampire Weekend, Father of the Bride
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Post by carllove on May 7, 2022 17:17:03 GMT
I'm trying to think of albums I'd rate as 10s. And as I made my list, I ended up with way more than I thought I would. (That's what I meant when I said I could imagine it getting out of hand. They're very rare, yes ... but there are a LOT of albums in this world!) As many as there are below, though--about 37-40, depending on how you take some of my "under consideration" ones--I think I'd have at least 10 to 20 times as many 9s, and 100 times as many 8s. That said, collect all the major-label (or even major indie label) albums in the world, and I'm guessing the average rating from me would be about a 4-5.
The Beatles have a good number of them: Rubber Soul, Revolver, Sgt. Pepper, Abbey Road. And if you wanted to include The White Album, I wouldn't fault you, though I don't go quite that high with that one.
Bob Dylan is up there with four of his own: Bringing It All Back Home, Highway 61 Revisited, Blonde on Blonde, Blood on the Tracks.
I'd give three of the four canonical Velvet Underground albums the nod: VU & Nico, s/t, Loaded.
Two for Led Zeppelin: IV and Houses of the Holy.
I'm not sure anyone else has more than one, off the top of my head.
The Beach Boys, Pet Sounds (possibly the most perfect album ever, imo)
Jimi Hendrix Experience, Are You Experienced?
Zappa/Mothers, We're Only In It For The Money The Zombies, O&O
Captain Beefheart & the Magic Band, troutmaskreplica (though I am really considering Safe As Milk)
Harry Nilsson, Nilsson Sings Newman
Lou Reed, Transformer Queen, A Night At the Opera
KISS, Love Gun (sorry, we're not taking any questions at this time, thanks! ) Van Halen, S/T
Squeeze, East Side Story
Bruce Springsteen, Nebraska (but serious consideration for Born to Run)
Michael Jackson, Thriller
Prince, Purple Rain
Paul Simon, Graceland U2, The Joshua Tree Guns n Roses, Appetite For Destruction
The Beastie Boys, Paul's Boutique
Cotton Mather, Kontiki Neutral Milk Hotel, In the Aeroplane Over the Sea Puerto Muerto, See You In Hell
Joanna Newsom, Ys
Herman Dune, Giant Vampire Weekend, Father of the Bride
Nice to see some Squeeze, Lou Reed, Prince, Beastie Boys and Vampire Weekend on your list. I almost added Purple Rain - but the list was getting long. That’s a great listen all of the way through. I just watched the Nilsson documentary, so it’s great to see him on your list as well. U2 was another band that almost made it with War. Nice list!
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Post by jk on May 7, 2022 20:39:33 GMT
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Post by jk on May 8, 2022 10:01:47 GMT
As for drawing up a list, I lost track of the criteria somewhere along the way. Quite frankly, I wouldn't know where to start -- or where to end. But it's an interesting subject, to be sure.
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Post by Kapitan on May 8, 2022 11:52:15 GMT
As for drawing up a list, I lost track of the criteria somewhere along the way. The criteria are as individual as each list-maker, there's no shared set of rules on this one.
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Post by jk on May 8, 2022 14:00:41 GMT
As for drawing up a list, I lost track of the criteria somewhere along the way. The criteria are as individual as each list-maker, there's no shared set of rules on this one. In that case, I'd take it a step further and suggest that each album has its own set of rules. So if I were to draw up a list, the only thing connecting them would be the fact that I like what I'm hearing, and that sounds more like a favourite albums topic to me.
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