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Post by Kapitan on Dec 22, 2021 20:37:14 GMT
Brian Wilson has said about composing that he often begins with "feels": chord patterns that he begins with, eventually working out fuller progressions, melodies, etc. I'm not sure he's ever gone into a lot of detail about this, but my impression has always been that he begins with pretty basic things that can "loop" (before we looped things, really...I just mean repeat, obviously) indefinitely. The alternating chords in "Cool Cool Water" are an example I always think of, a simple little thing that he could build on indefinitely, adding this or that little vocal or instrumental idea atop it, and yes, eventually expanding the progression and song from that.
I'm not sure how much there is to discuss about this, but I just wanted to say I think on one hand I can relate to that method ... and on the other it feels to me like a surefire way to run into a dead end, almost because of the method itself.
I was just messing around with some chords that I guess you could call a "feel," a Gm7/D for a bar, then F-7/C and in root position, repeated a few times. Then a Bbmaj7 and Ebmaj7(add9), and back again with that Eb going down to the D that repeats it all again.
[EDIT: a I-vi-IV-V or I-vi-ii-V progression gets the idea across in a familiar way. Think "Earth Angel." You can keep repeating those chords indefinitely.]
Point being, you get into a hypnotic groove doing this sort of thing and it can just feel like everything is well with the world. I completely understand getting lost in such a repetitious activity, finding little things to do with it, almost indefinitely. But I also can see getting stuck in it, my mind looping and not being able to break out of it!
That last part is just anecdotal and personal, so feel free to ignore that. But I am curious if anyone has really thought much about what Brian means when he talks about writing that way.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Dec 22, 2021 21:36:48 GMT
As a non-musician, this topic is outside my whatever, but I have seen that quote from Brian, and this is what I thought/think. Based on what I've read, I surmised that Brian composed songs in two ways. With the first way, he had the song, sometimes the entire song with arrangements, in his head when he went into the studio. It was then just a matter of handing out the parts and laying down the track. However, with the second way, the other way, he went into the studio WITHOUT the song already in his head, and he basically wrote it in the studio. I figured that's where the "feels" came in, meaning he plunked around on the piano (and I mean that in the most flattering way; hey, it's Brian Wilson), coming up with notes and chords and lines and melodies on the spot until he had a...song. He basically wrote by FEEL, not something that was already in his head.
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Post by bellesofparisstan on Dec 26, 2021 7:01:28 GMT
I think the recently released ‘til I die piano demo is a good example of what he would consider a “feel.” It has a lot of the cords used in the final production, it’s clear that the idea is being formed, but does it sound put together? Could you easily slot the lyrics right on top of it? Is everything clicking into place just yet? No. It’s very repetitive, and clearly just in the early stage of an idea, with quite a ways to go before it’s an official song. Same with the don’t talk piano demo.
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sockit
The Surfer Moon
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Post by sockit on Dec 27, 2021 16:58:22 GMT
When I think of BW and his "feels", I think of the scene in the movie Love and Mercy where he's banging out what would become the chorus to "Good Vibrations" in the sandbox. Just playing that chord riff over and over (perhaps for hours) until he figures out where to go with it. From there the song evolves over a period of time--sometimes even a long time.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 27, 2021 17:01:49 GMT
When I think of BW and his "feels", I think of the scene in the movie Love and Mercy where he's banging out what would become the chorus to "Good Vibrations" in the sandbox. Just playing that chord riff over and over (perhaps for hours) until he figures out where to go with it. From there the song evolves over a period of time--sometimes even a long time. Yeah, that is what I was thinking/imagining as well. And I can imagine how it goes on like that, becomes almost hypnotic. It's not an efficient way to write a song, but it certainly can be relaxing, almost like I'd imagine meditation (even if the chords or riff in question don't seem sedate).
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sockit
The Surfer Moon
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Post by sockit on Dec 27, 2021 17:33:54 GMT
When I think of BW and his "feels", I think of the scene in the movie Love and Mercy where he's banging out what would become the chorus to "Good Vibrations" in the sandbox. Just playing that chord riff over and over (perhaps for hours) until he figures out where to go with it. From there the song evolves over a period of time--sometimes even a long time. Yeah, that is what I was thinking/imagining as well. And I can imagine how it goes on like that, becomes almost hypnotic. It's not an efficient way to write a song, but it certainly can be relaxing, almost like I'd imagine meditation (even if the chords or riff in question don't seem sedate). One thing I'm not clear on is whether or not he is (or was) consciously thinking about the specific chords. "Feels" implies that he is simply playing what feels and sounds nice, and then perhaps figuring out the chord names, keys, tempo, etc, later on. However, it's very possible that someone at that astronomically high musical level might be going through the exercise thinking, "Ok, now an Am should go here...." etc, etc.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 27, 2021 17:42:13 GMT
Yeah, that is what I was thinking/imagining as well. And I can imagine how it goes on like that, becomes almost hypnotic. It's not an efficient way to write a song, but it certainly can be relaxing, almost like I'd imagine meditation (even if the chords or riff in question don't seem sedate). One thing I'm not clear on is whether or not he is (or was) consciously thinking about the specific chords. "Feels" implies that he is simply playing what feels and sounds nice, and then perhaps figuring out the chord names, keys, tempo, etc, later on. However, it's very possible that someone at that astronomically high musical level might be going through the exercise thinking, "Ok, now an Am should go here...." etc, etc. Absolutely agree that it is unclear, but suspect he wasn't thinking of what should happen. I don't think Brian really ever composed from an intellectual-theoretical (for lack of a better term, though I don't mean it in a derogatory way) perspective. He obviously knew some basic music theory, just from the perspective of clearly knowing the names of notes, names of chords, etc., as well as common chord progressions that he grew up listening to and studying on his own, whether simpler things like Little Richard/Chuck Berry or the Four Freshmen.
But while he obviously knew and had even absorbed those standard progressions, I don't know that he necessarily thought theoretically. When he's banging out a couple of chords for minutes or hours on end, whether it was totally just going on instinct, hand-shapes (which is how Adam Marsland has described Carl's approach to piano--and thus maybe composition--for example), a vague relationship to theory, or actually carefully considered theory, I have no idea whatsoever.
But I definitely never got the idea he was approaching it from an intentionally theoretical perspective the way that, say, Frank Zappa or Elvis Costello might: "ooh, it would be a surprising and clever change to go from [such-and-such] to that chord, since everyone is expecting this chord, and then I could resolve it later via [whatever]." There are composers who think along those lines. My impression of Brian's "feels" (and non-formulaic composition generally) is almost the opposite of that, whether or not he did or would've understood things theoretically had he thought about it.
I hope this isn't rambling too vaguely. It's hard to be concise and specific about this! (I guess much like composing with "feels" itself...)
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sockit
The Surfer Moon
Posts: 234
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Post by sockit on Dec 27, 2021 18:22:43 GMT
One thing I'm not clear on is whether or not he is (or was) consciously thinking about the specific chords. "Feels" implies that he is simply playing what feels and sounds nice, and then perhaps figuring out the chord names, keys, tempo, etc, later on. However, it's very possible that someone at that astronomically high musical level might be going through the exercise thinking, "Ok, now an Am should go here...." etc, etc. Absolutely agree that it is unclear, but suspect he wasn't thinking of what should happen. I don't think Brian really ever composed from an intellectual-theoretical (for lack of a better term, though I don't mean it in a derogatory way) perspective. He obviously knew some basic music theory, just from the perspective of clearly knowing the names of notes, names of chords, etc., as well as common chord progressions that he grew up listening to and studying on his own, whether simpler things like Little Richard/Chuck Berry or the Four Freshmen.
But while he obviously knew and had even absorbed those standard progressions, I don't know that he necessarily thought theoretically. When he's banging out a couple of chords for minutes or hours on end, whether it was totally just going on instinct, hand-shapes (which is how Adam Marsland has described Carl's approach to piano--and thus maybe composition--for example), a vague relationship to theory, or actually carefully considered theory, I have no idea whatsoever.
But I definitely never got the idea he was approaching it from an intentionally theoretical perspective the way that, say, Frank Zappa or Elvis Costello might: "ooh, it would be a surprising and clever change to go from [such-and-such] to that chord, since everyone is expecting this chord, and then I could resolve it later via [whatever]." There are composers who think along those lines. My impression of Brian's "feels" (and non-formulaic composition generally) is almost the opposite of that, whether or not he did or would've understood things theoretically had he thought about it.
I hope this isn't rambling too vaguely. It's hard to be concise and specific about this! (I guess much like composing with "feels" itself...)
Oh this is not rambling at all! This is a subject worthy of discussion. I suppose the only person who would have the answer would be Brian himself. If I ever had the chance to ask him a question....this would be it!
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Post by joshilynhoisington on Dec 28, 2021 21:31:29 GMT
There's a quote in the new long-promised road movie where the person who says it says something to the effect that Brian told him that these looped feels were almost as visually and spatially motivated practices as they were musical; Brian was trying to "create geometric shapes."
Obviously, with Brian's sort of selective mutism, he is not able to expand upon what this means to him, but I think we can think of these visual shapes in terms of a piano keyboard or notated music.
A lot of Brian's chord patterns are a bit like little puzzles - What can you accomplish by playing a new chord but only moving your index and little fingers? What about only moving the middle and ring fingers?
I honestly think this was more of a source of inspiration and creation than any harmonic ideas sometimes.
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Post by jk on Dec 28, 2021 22:37:31 GMT
JH, I seem to recall "'Til I Die" being described (maybe not in so many words) as an exercise in geometric shapes with the two hands (on the keyboard) operating in mirror image. It might have been in Lambert's book -- I'll keep an eye out for it.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 28, 2021 23:58:01 GMT
That's how A. Marsland has described Carl's keyboard style, in particular. I hadn't thought of it as much with respect to Brian, but it certainly could be. And as you've described it, joshilynhoisington, that makes sense to me.
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Post by joshilynhoisington on Dec 29, 2021 0:39:48 GMT
That's how A. Marsland has described Carl's keyboard style, in particular. I hadn't thought of it as much with respect to Brian, but it certainly could be. And as you've described it, joshilynhoisington , that makes sense to me. I think Carl and Dennis took a lot away from Brian when it came to their own keyboard styles -- after all, he may have been about the only example they had. Carl definitely gravitated toward that almost mathematically rote moves, but Dennis took the more feel based aspects of Brian's playing. That's of course over simplistic.
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