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Post by beachboystalkmatt on Sept 8, 2021 2:26:36 GMT
First I want to say that I think Bruce is a brilliant musician and songwriter.
Bruce had a successful career before he joined the Beach Boys. This weekend I listened to Sunflower, Surf's Up, Carl and the Passions, and Holland. One thing I noticed was that though Bruce's songs are nice, they do not seem to fit on a BB album. In fact, they do not seem to fit on any Rock and Roll album. I started to wonder if Bruce could have had a career writing songs for singers in the Easy Listening genre and be successful? We know that he was very successful with I write the songs. The songs on Sunflower written by Bruce sound like they could have been hits for the Carpenters. Disney Girls does as well. But they do not fit on a BB album in my opinion.
Did Bruce settle? Did being part of the Beach Boys stunt his musical career? Again, I do not mean any disrespect to Bruce. I just wonder if joining the Beach Boys was good for him from a musical point of view. His songs on BB albums all sound like solo songs. He sings most of them if not all, and he did not collaborate very much with members of the band. Maybe he could have written more songs and albums if he was not in the band.
I noticed when I listened to CATP and Holland that I was not missing hearing a Bruce song on the albums. Blondie and Ricky's songs fit in better than his songs in my opinion.
I would like to know your thoughts on these questions. Did the Beach Boys stifle Bruce? Did he settle? Did he hurt the Beach Boys at all? Thanks to all who tuned in to our review of Sunflower tonight. It was so much fun!!
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Post by jk on Sept 8, 2021 8:51:28 GMT
Hi Matt. As I said at EH, I think Bruce's compositions fit as well on BB albums as anything by any other member of the band. They enrich the mix.
And there's this anecdote from the distant past: I remember being non-plussed when Keith Moon arrived at the Ready Steady Go! studios with "Bruce Johnston of The Beach Boys" to promote Pet Sounds back in May 1966. I'd never heard of him and certainly wasn't aware of his connection with the Boys. But since then I've warmed to him and regard him as always having been an asset to the band.
Did he settle? Now that's a more difficult question to answer!
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 8, 2021 11:38:32 GMT
This is an interesting topic which is rarely discussed in depth, I guess because Bruce has always been viewed as the "5th" or even "6th" Beach Boy.
Did Bruce hurt the Beach Boys at all? Did he fit? The best way I can describe Bruce's contributions to the Beach Boys is "up and down". On one album, his song(s) are fine and definitely make an impact, then on the next they are inconsequential and can sound out of place. Sometimes it can be both!
On 20/20, Bruce gave us "The Nearest Faraway Place". Personally, I love the song but does it really fit on 20/20? There's a lot of rock & roll/rock music on that album, so maybe it is valuable in that it provides...quieter music. Is the effect any different than Brian's "I Went To Sleep" or "Time To Get Alone"?
While I don't especially care for "Deidre" and "Tears In the Morning", again I think they play a role on Sunflower. Bruce's songs are adult, mature music, the direction the band was starting to pursue. But, is it...Beach Boys' music? Do you see a pattern here?
Bruce's only contribution to Surf's Up is "Disney Girls", arguably his best song. Hell yeah it's a very good maybe great song, but what does it have to do with any other Surf's Up songs? So, again, Bruce provides diversion. Did the album need diversion?
Keepin' The Summer Alive? It's a stretch to say that "Endless Harmony" is a fit on a supposedly "summer" album, but you could also say that about a couple of the album's other songs, too. And, hey, who was pushing for the inclusion of the out-of-place "When Girls Get Together"?
I think Bruce finally found his home with The Beach Boys (1985) and Summer In Paradise. His songs do fit on those albums and they aren't that bad (I think that's a compliment).
So, I think it's fair to say that Bruce's contributions, while sometimes strong songwriting-wise, were hit and miss. He certainly wasn't a great fit, and while it's off-topic, he was also a poor choice as producer in 1979-80.
As far as the other question, could've Bruce been successful at writing songs for other artists? The answer is a simple YES! But, that also begs another question - why didn't he? It's perplexing. Let's be honest, for the last 55 years, there was very little if any pressure on Bruce to provide songs/music to The Beach Boys. There were always three, four, five, or six(!) songwriters in the group to provide material. I doubt anybody was depending on Bruce for material. So, what was keeping him from "writing on the side", especially over the last forty years? After his short but prosperous run (1969-71) with The Beach Boys, and after composing "I Write The Songs", it's fair to say that Bruce mostly disappeared as a serious songwriter. We're talking, what, three or four Beach Boys' songs over the last forty years and NO solo material. Why? Why didn't Bruce continue to write - seriously - for The Beach Boys, other artists, or himself? I have to think he either has or should have a studio in his home(s). I keep thinking he has a stash of songs stored somewhere that he will someday unveil to the world. Well, Bruce is pushing 80, so, if he is planning to release any hidden gems or songs that he would really like to be heard, he better hurry.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 8, 2021 11:49:12 GMT
I'd imagine Bruce could have continued (as did his pre-Beach Boys colleague Terry Melcher) as a staff producer, as an A&R guy, as an occasional songwriter and session man, and made a good, mostly anonymous career.
But when asked, he took the job being a performer in a band that already had its sound (and primary songwriter/producer) settled. As part of that trade-off, he wasn't going to be "the man," but he would be a part of something far bigger than anything he was likely to do on his own.
In either case, I don't think Bruce was prolific enough to be a full-time solo artist. Look at his debut (and only) solo album after leaving the Beach Boys. Was it a triple-disc tour de force like George Harrison's All Things Must Pass finally releasing the pressure valve of all those stopped-up songs? No: in fact, it rehashed a handful of previously released songs among its nine songs. What about when the Beach Boys were going to release their first all-new studio album in decades, in 2012? Bruce offers up a remake of his almost 30-year-old "She Believes in Love Again," which had not only been on a Beach Boys album but was a single!
I say all this because it seems to me Bruce wanted to be involved. He wanted a role. He wanted to get paid. As a multi-instrumentalist, good singer, and competent producer, he could serve as a pinch-hitter in various situations.
But I do not think he cost himself anything by choosing to be a Beach Boy over his own solo career--I don't think a consistent solo career was ever in the cards for him.
As for whether or how his songs fit on the Beach Boys albums, that's another question, and another long answer. So I'll save it for now.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 8, 2021 19:42:48 GMT
I meant to get back to this topic and mention Bruce's actual songs. First, to reiterate what SJS said (because I am going to go off it in parts): While I don't especially care for "Deidre" and "Tears In the Morning", again I think they play a role on Sunflower. Bruce's songs are adult, mature music, the direction the band was starting to pursue. But, is it...Beach Boys' music? Do you see a pattern here? Bruce's only contribution to Surf's Up is "Disney Girls", arguably his best song. Hell yeah it's a very good maybe great song, but what does it have to do with any other Surf's Up songs? So, again, Bruce provides diversion. Did the album need diversion? Keepin' The Summer Alive? It's a stretch to say that "Endless Harmony" is a fit on a supposedly "summer" album, but you could also say that about a couple of the album's other songs, too. And, hey, who was pushing for the inclusion of the out-of-place "When Girls Get Together"? I think Bruce finally found his home with The Beach Boys (1985) and Summer In Paradise. His songs do fit on those albums and they aren't that bad (I think that's a compliment). I think his songs actually weren't a bad fit for the new "adult" version of the Beach Boys. They stood out, but in a way that I think helped. They weren't bad, and if they were different, well, wasn't "Feel Flows" different from "Don't Go Near the Water" from "This Whole World" from "Surf's Up"? The Beach Boys were almost never a one-trick pony, even in the early years. And by the late '60s, it was no shock to have the shock of one unique song beside another. Those songs he contributed are generally pretty good.
Maybe more than that, he was a great utility player to have in the studio as they used fewer session musicians. He could play keyboard instruments better than anyone else in the band as well as play bass, sing, and produce. So I think that was helpful for the home studio environment.
The disjointed nature might have been more cultural/factional than anything else. I think the musical dichotomies were fine. But the guy who writes "Disney Girls" is not exactly simpatico with the guy writing "Feel Flows."
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 8, 2021 21:05:56 GMT
I meant to get back to this topic and mention Bruce's actual songs. First, to reiterate what SJS said (because I am going to go off it in parts): While I don't especially care for "Deidre" and "Tears In the Morning", again I think they play a role on Sunflower. Bruce's songs are adult, mature music, the direction the band was starting to pursue. But, is it...Beach Boys' music? Do you see a pattern here? Bruce's only contribution to Surf's Up is "Disney Girls", arguably his best song. Hell yeah it's a very good maybe great song, but what does it have to do with any other Surf's Up songs? So, again, Bruce provides diversion. Did the album need diversion? Keepin' The Summer Alive? It's a stretch to say that "Endless Harmony" is a fit on a supposedly "summer" album, but you could also say that about a couple of the album's other songs, too. And, hey, who was pushing for the inclusion of the out-of-place "When Girls Get Together"? I think Bruce finally found his home with The Beach Boys (1985) and Summer In Paradise. His songs do fit on those albums and they aren't that bad (I think that's a compliment). I think his songs actually weren't a bad fit for the new "adult" version of the Beach Boys. They stood out, but in a way that I think helped. They weren't bad, and if they were different, well, wasn't "Feel Flows" different from "Don't Go Near the Water" from "This Whole World" from "Surf's Up"? The Beach Boys were almost never a one-trick pony, even in the early years. And by the late '60s, it was no shock to have the shock of one unique song beside another. Those songs he contributed are generally pretty good. I think Bruce's songs WERE significantly different from other album songs - in some/most cases. On Surf's Up, "Disney Girls" WAS much more different from "Feel Flows" than "Feel Flows" was from "Don't Go Near The Water". "Feel Flows" and "Don't Go Near The Water" were cool songs, with Rieley-influenced lyrics, and very 1971. "Disney Girls" was/is a great song, but it's not cool; it's not supposed to be cool. It's an old-time romantic song, with 50's lyrics and...whistling. While I like "Disney Girls" and I wouldn't necessarily say that it didn't...belong...on Surf's Up, I can understand how some fans might be turned off by its sappiness on that particular album.
Now, Sunflower, with its laid back vibe and "adult relationship" theme on several songs, would be a better home for Bruce's songs. That's what I was trying to convey above. Bruce's songs were hit and miss as far as fitting in. "The Nearest Faraway Place" on 20/20? Meh. "Endless Harmony" on Keepin' The Summer Alive? No. "She Believes In Love Again" on BB1985 and "Slow Summer Dancin' (One Summer Night)" on Summer In Paradise? Well, yes. You never knew with Bruce, but I can see how some fans would not be enamored with his songs. And, I just realized something, one thing you did know about Bruce - every Bruce song was gonna be a ballad (if you count "Deidre" as a ballad and don't consider "How She Boogalooed Ity" and "Somewhere Near Japan" as Bruce songs).
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