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NBA
Apr 16, 2020 17:16:27 GMT
Post by Kapitan on Apr 16, 2020 17:16:27 GMT
I'd love to see a playoff and a champion, but I hate the idea of it dragging into fall. Because then what about next season? It would have to be cut short, you can't have a marathon season that goes almost a full year.
My preference is probably ending the season where it was, a reduced playoffs (3-game series until the finals) beginning Memorial Day weekend, the whole thing is over by mid-July. Draft immediately thereafter. Then we start next season on time. It's imperfect, it will always have an asterisk ... but that's going to be the case anyway.
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NBA
Apr 21, 2020 18:20:14 GMT
Post by Kapitan on Apr 21, 2020 18:20:14 GMT
Did anyone watch the first couple episodes of the ESPN NBA documentary The Last Dance?
I watched them last night. Really enjoyable for me to think back to those days and those teams.
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NBA
Apr 21, 2020 19:45:09 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 21, 2020 19:45:09 GMT
I watched it. It was pretty good. I had forgotten the almost immediate impact that Jordan had on the league.
The most enlightening thing brought out in the documentary for me was when Jordan described walking into that hotel room and some teammates were smoking weed, some were doing coke, and some had various women. He got the hell out of there and vowed not to go down that path. But this was pre-internet and pre-social media and that stuff was kept, literally, behind closed doors.
I felt a little sorry for Jerry Krause. He took a lot of abuse from the players, things that wouldn't be permitted today. And, not that what was brought out was necessarily false about Krause, but it's too bad he was not able to defend himself. I thought Jerry Reinsdorf came across weak for allowing some of it.
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NBA
Apr 21, 2020 20:12:46 GMT
B.E. likes this
Post by Kapitan on Apr 21, 2020 20:12:46 GMT
Without question, the dynamics of players and teams (and media) were just so different then. Beat writers weren't out to expose celebrities' foibles, there was no social media for them to do it themselves, and of course they really weren't anywhere near as wealthy when Jordan came into the league. Sure, there were some guys making huge salaries or endorsement money, but nothing remotely like now, even adjusted for inflation.
Plus, without social media, players didn't have the modern mentality of thinking they should be telling everyone everything all the time, the center of attention. (Not to say only players have that mentality; arguably most people born into that era do.)
Krause ... I feel both ways. On one hand, I don't like the teasing and badmouthing in general. And in this case it did feel like jocks picking on nerds. But on the other hand, Krause was clearly an egotistical guy with (as someone in the doc said) "little man syndrome" or a Napoleon complex. So he brought some of that on himself.
In this story that makes heavy use of an interview with Tim Floyd, Krause comes off arguably even worse.
And then purely professionally ... the guy was terrible at drafting talent. In the doc he was shown saying something about how as the key players aged, they didn't have enough good, young talent around them to carry on. Well guess whose fault that is? If you start from the Bulls' first E.C. Finals appearance season and follow through the rest of that era, look at who he took, and who he could have taken. It's astoundingly bad. Everyone misses on picks, everyone lets the occasional sleeper slip. But look at their first-rounders.
1989 #6, Stacey King. Career 6.4 ppg, 3.3 apg. Players taken later include George McLeod, Pooh Richardson, Nick Anderson, Mookie Blaylock, Tim Hardaway, Dana Barros, Shawn Kemp. #18 BJ Armstrong. Career 9.8 ppg 3.3 apg. #20 Jeff Sanders. Career 2.0 ppg. Players taken after include Vlade Divac, Sherman Douglas, Clifford Robinson, Doug West, Dino Radja, Chucky Brown, and Haywoode Workman. King and Sanders were terrible picks, Armstrong was a reasonably solid player but not a great pick.
1990 No 1st round pick #29, Toni Kukoc. Hard to argue that one on talent, though the multiyear wait and locker room tension didn't help. But best players taken later are the likes of Cedric Ceballos, Greg Foster, Negele Knight. This was a good pick.
1991 #26 Mark Randall, career 2.6 ppg 1.3 rpg. Players taken later include Randy Brown, Bobby Phills, Richard Dumas, Ike Austin, Donald Hodge, Zan Tabak. They weren't going to get a star, but they could have gotten better than Randall. Horrible pick.
1992 #27, Byron Houston, career 3.9 ppg 3 rpg. Players taken later include PJ Brown, Sean Rooks, Popeye Jones, Matt Geiger, Predrag Danlilovic. Horrible pick.
1993 #25, Corie Blount, 3.6 ppg 4.2 rpg. Players taken later include Lucious Harris, Gheorghe Muresan, Nick Van Exel, Byron Russell, and Chris Whitney. Horrible pick.
1994 #21, Dickey Simpkins, 4.2 ppg 3.6 rpg. Players taken later include Wesley Person, Monty Williams, Charlie Ward, Howard Eisley, Jim McIlvaine, Voshon Lenard, Lawrence Funderburke, Zeljko Rebraca, Anthony Goldwire. Horrible pick.
1995 #20, Jason Caffey, 7.3 ppg 4.4 rpg. Players taken after include Chicago native Michael Finley, Travis Best, Greg Ostertag, Eric Snow, Tyus Edney, Fred Hoiberg, Chris Carr. Bad pick.
1996 #29 Travis Knight, 3.4 ppg 3.1 rpg. Players taken later include Othella Harrington, Moochie Norris, Jeff McInnis, Malik Rose, Jamie Feick, and Shandon Anderson. Horrible pick.
1997 #29 Keith Booth, 2.9 ppg 2.2 rpg (449 total NBA minutes played). Players taken later include Marc Jackson the Temple center, Anthony Johnson, Stephen Jackson, Cedric Henderson, Eric Washington, Alvin Williams, Predrag Drobnjak, Chris Crawford, Mark Blount. Horrible pick.
In those nine drafts, it is safe to say none of their 10 first round picks was ever the best player on the board, and in most cases he wasn't one of the top 5 players on the board. They weren't mediocre at drafting; they were terrible. It wasn't just that they drafted low; it's that they blew almost every single pick. When Jerry Krause said something about not having young talent as his stars aged, that's because of him. That's because he was bad at drafting young talent.
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Apr 21, 2020 20:30:01 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 21, 2020 20:30:01 GMT
Excellent breakdown there! You should write a book. Again, I'm not necessarily defending Krause's record or behavior/personality - it does speak for itself in places. I just felt a little bad that he wasn't around to weigh in himself (where he/it was defensible). But, hey, everyone passes away eventually and such are documentaries. And I love documentaries.
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Apr 22, 2020 16:49:09 GMT
Post by B.E. on Apr 22, 2020 16:49:09 GMT
I loved it. This is perfect for me. I didn't start watching the NBA until the following season and it was probably another 4-5 years until I closely followed the business side of things, so while I've seen the highlights, heard stories, and know the major plot points, a lot of these details are new to me. Truly fascinating stuff. I can't believe how many times the word "rebuild" was spoken in the first episode. I understand the need or desire to make a (minor) move or two to address an aging roster (and it was an aging roster, no question), but to even have a passing thought of completely tearing down a multi-championship team is obscene. This is a business after all. Was anyone more "box office" than Michael Jordan? The level of toxicity entering the 1997/8 season is staggering. I had no idea it was that bad and out in the open. The teasing and mocking of Krause was unpleasant, and as Kerr said I think he deserves a lot of credit for what he did accomplish, but it also seems quite apparent that he was at the center of the toxicity. SJS mentioned Reinsdorf as coming off weak for allowing it. I'll buy that, but what about Phil Jackson? It's his job to keep the players in line, but he was in the same position as Scottie was. That's not an excuse, but for the "kindest guy you'd ever meet" Krause certainly succeeded in alienating the most important people in the organization at the time: Phil, MJ, and Scottie. Let me be clear, though, none of them are among my favorite people. To me, each of them has always come across as unlikable, personality-wise. This documentary is already confirming that that's not just Knicks' fan bias. Kapitan's point about Krause's drafting ability is well taken. Thanks for the breakdown. I looked ahead to their 1998/9 roster to find rookies Booth and LaRue returned and four new rookies onboard (Cory Benjamin, Cory Carr, Kornel David, and Charles Jones). Of those 6 players, Benjamin went on to have the longest NBA career totaling 153 games played (14mpg). Dire. A few other thoughts: - As a Knicks fan it was painful watching MJ (and James Worthy) defeat Ewing in the NCAA Championship game. A sign of things to come! -I also couldn't help but notice that after MJ promised 2-3 more NCAA Championships, he was suddenly deciding to enter the draft. (To be fair, they are using a non-linear approach, so maybe they'll revisit his college career in a future episode). -As for the cynic in me, as much as I enjoy the backstory of MJ and Scottie (especially MJ's mother reading one his old letters, and MJ's reaction), work ethic isn't everything. And, I'm not downplaying how hard those guys worked. They probably did outwork other nearly equally gifted athletes, but the fact is (according to the documentary, anyway) MJ grew 5 inches over the summer after missing the cut. Scottie was 6'1'' entering college, then all of a sudden he was 6'5'', then 6'7''. I was 6'1'' when I entered college and 6'1'' when I left. Edit: I forgot to mention the strict 14 minute time restriction they placed on MJ. That was ridiculous. I may have heard the story before, but I hadn't retained it. Anyway, I appreciate the organization's position, but to be that strict about it? If he plays an extra 15 or 30 seconds in a pivotal game, you'll fire the coach - really?
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Apr 22, 2020 17:31:09 GMT
B.E. likes this
Post by Kapitan on Apr 22, 2020 17:31:09 GMT
Great points throughout, B.E. Two things come to my mind:
1) I agree with you that frankly the principals were all pretty unlikable people. I never liked any of them, to be honest, and still don't. I enjoyed watching them play to some degree, though I was always anti-Bulls. (Probably mostly the contrarian in me, even as a kid. Everyone likes Jordan? Fine, I like Dominique Wilkins!) But one has to wonder how much that disagreeableness played into greatness, too. If Jordan were the nicest guy out there, didn't have a killer instinct, would he have become what he became? And along those lines...
2) Work ethic v talent. The point can't be overstated: you need both, and more. I--having been a huge geek as a kid and thus a player of role-playing games--always think about it like a combination of categories, each with its own ranking. This is huge oversimplification, but let's say there's intelligence, work ethic, physical dimensions, raw athleticism, and coordination/skill, and you might be a 1-10 rating in each category. To make the NBA, you need to be a 40, and that requires more than any one thing.
So the most skilled, hardest working, smart player may well turn into a really good college player, but if he's a 6-2 forward without a lot of athleticism, he's a 30 ... he's not making the NBA. But ditto the 6-8 freak of nature who just doesn't care, or who is dumb as a rock.
Jordan had arguably the greatest combination of everything ever. His athleticism was off the charts. His intelligence was up there. His work ethic was off the charts. His size/physical characteristics were ideal. And his skill level was high. He literally became the prototype for SGs to the point that it was all anyone mentioned in draft previews or league analyses. "Jordanesque frame," "not athletic enough to defend Jordan," and of course the curse of "the next Jordan." (Forget Kobe; LaBradford Smith, Harold Miner, and too many others to name, the poor guys.)
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Apr 22, 2020 18:09:13 GMT
Post by B.E. on Apr 22, 2020 18:09:13 GMT
1) I agree with you that frankly the principals were all pretty unlikable people ... But one has to wonder how much that disagreeableness played into greatness, too. If Jordan were the nicest guy out there, didn't have a killer instinct, would he have become what he became? And along those lines...
Absolutely not, I'd say. That reminds me of one of the best moments so far: MJ's brother, Larry, stating that he was so competitive that if he lost it could come to blows. That probably seems highly excessive to the average viewer, but I can relate (to an extent) and it doesn't surprise me in the least that someone as competitive as Michael Jordan would have had a brother like that. His father also admitted dismissing his son, telling him he'd amount to nothing because he grabbed the wrong tool. That motivates some people, it has the opposite effect on others. So, when it comes to being a leader, I think you need to understand the people you're leading and how each situation is different. But, that said, having a killer instinct is an essential element (just don't get lost in it!). Man, I can't wait for the next episodes.
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NBA
Apr 22, 2020 18:33:28 GMT
Post by Kapitan on Apr 22, 2020 18:33:28 GMT
See, and that is exactly why I don't necessarily think Jordan was a great leader; I just think he was a great player. That franchise ended up watching him break many players who probably could have been more, done more. But because he had ultimate belief in himself and his way, and he had such power in the franchise, that was that.
I remember Lou Holtz--one of my favorite college football coaches ever--talk about how he never even tried to treat everyone the same. And his reasons were exactly what you said. With some people, you need to ride them hard. Others, you need to pamper them a little, give pep talks. Obviously you can't just have a dozen (for basketball) or 85 (for college football) different approaches. But a great leader understands the different dynamics of his followers.
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NBA
Apr 27, 2020 16:08:51 GMT
Post by B.E. on Apr 27, 2020 16:08:51 GMT
Any thoughts on episodes 3 and 4? Let me know when you guys are caught up. I don't want to spoil anything. I'm not certain what's common knowledge and what might be new.
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NBA
Apr 27, 2020 16:28:44 GMT
Post by Kapitan on Apr 27, 2020 16:28:44 GMT
I haven't watched yet, but I'll probably catch them both tonight.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:03:44 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 27, 2020 17:03:44 GMT
I'll be careful not to elaborate too much.
It was another two excellent episodes. I appreciate Jordan's honesty with his recollections; he's not mincing too many words. And, by the way, Isiah Thomas is really pushing back on the various talk shows today.
Phil Jackson was ahead of his time in the way he handled the various crazy issues with the Bulls. Even though Rodman was great and valuable, not many coaches could've handled him the way Jackson did.
I didn't like the Pistons then and I still don't like them now (do I sound like Jordan?).
One thing on the documentary itself. I know they wanted to go with a theme - "the last dance", the breaking up of the team. But, I don't think it was necessary to have a theme, and because of it, they have to keep going from 1997-98 BACK ten or fifteen years. I sometimes lose track of where they're at or what direction they're going, or what point they're trying to make. One minute they're talking about breaking up the team, and literally a few seconds later they're focusing on an entirely different year/team/highlight/point. I think the documentary would've been easier to follow along and still eventually focus on the "last dance" if they just would've gone along chronologically.
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NBA
Apr 28, 2020 14:32:47 GMT
Post by Kapitan on Apr 28, 2020 14:32:47 GMT
I have now watched episodes 3-4, too. Considering we do about 95% of the NBA talk, I think we can speak without fear of spoilers at this point. (Though I guess my main point this morning isn't really a spoiler.)
SJS, I want to riff off of your comment about the chronology.
I agree to some degree that it can be hard to follow sometimes, because you're engaged deeply in a 1987 story about Doug Collins, then a 1991 story about that first title, then back to the purported topic of that final season. But I think maybe more than a flaw in the documentary itself, it's a flaw in the marketing of it as "The Last Dance." It doesn't really seem to be that. Rather, it seems to be a documentary about the Bulls' Jordan era, which naturally would have a heavy emphasis on that last season.
Marketing it as "The Last Dance" might seem more dramatic and thus saleable, but I think it is misleading.
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Apr 28, 2020 14:48:24 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Apr 28, 2020 14:48:24 GMT
I have now watched episodes 3-4, too. Considering we do about 95% of the NBA talk, I think we can speak without fear of spoilers at this point. (Though I guess my main point this morning isn't really a spoiler.)
SJS, I want to riff off of your comment about the chronology.
I agree to some degree that it can be hard to follow sometimes, because you're engaged deeply in a 1987 story about Doug Collins, then a 1991 story about that first title, then back to the purported topic of that final season. But I think maybe more than a flaw in the documentary itself, it's a flaw in the marketing of it as "The Last Dance." It doesn't really seem to be that. Rather, it seems to be a documentary about the Bulls' Jordan era, which naturally would have a heavy emphasis on that last season.
Marketing it as "The Last Dance" might seem more dramatic and thus saleable, but I think it is misleading.
Yes, the marketing is misleading and I don't think necessary. I kept hearing about the 10-hour "Michael Jordan documentary" on ESPN and that was enough to entice me. The "last dance" aspect is a sub-story, a sub-plot.
They're almost half way through and I think they better move it along. They have to cover several more championship seasons, and, to many fans, the most intriguing, in-depth (revealing?) story of Jordan leaving the NBA for baseball. That will take an entire episode right there.
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NBA
Apr 28, 2020 14:52:08 GMT
Post by Kapitan on Apr 28, 2020 14:52:08 GMT
Right, and I am assuming they will focus more on the last season as we approach the end, too. But I'd guess baseball gets at least one full episode.
I keep wondering whether Kukoc gets more attention soon, too. His storyline was a hugely important one, first with Jerry Krause falling in love with the teenaged Euro-Magic way back when, then drafting him in '90 (I think it was), then Michael and Scottie just demolishing him in their first matchup at the '92 Olympics, then integrating him in '93 or whatever year, and finally him being an essential piece of those latter-day championships. Hugely underrated complementary player who maybe could have been a borderline star on worse teams.
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