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NBA
Oct 23, 2021 0:07:19 GMT
B.E. likes this
Post by Kapitan on Oct 23, 2021 0:07:19 GMT
I thought it was odd that MSG network was blacked out last game. I had set it to record and ended up missing the first half as a result. Oh well, so I watched the rest on ESPN. Well, it's blacked out again...turns out xfinity dropped MSG. I guess I'm not watching the Knicks. Edit: It really looks like I'm going to have to settle for nationally televised games and after-the-fact YouTube recaps/highlights. I'm not paying $65/mo for Fubo and I'm currently reluctant to switch providers. This really sucks. Knicks are up 25 right now and I've been looking forward to it all day! It's gonna be a great season (injury permitting). Welcome to my world. Last year and this, same thing. No realistic options.
Well, to be fair, Knicks up 25 is far from "my world." We're losers in this-here state.
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NBA
Oct 23, 2021 0:20:42 GMT
Post by B.E. on Oct 23, 2021 0:20:42 GMT
Now, that you've reminded me, I do remember you mentioning that. What's the situation? MSG airs the Knicks, the Rangers, Islanders, and Devils of the NHL, and Red Bulls of MLS. It's crazy to me to think that all these teams have been, essentially, taken off TV in entire states (NJ and Connecticut). It really shouldn't be that bad for me, because the reality is I only have time to turn on a game here and there. Most of the time I'm just checking box scores and watching highlights anyway. It just would be nice, when I do get a chance, to sit back and watch a half hour, or an hour, or an entire game of live action every once in a while. And I really wanted to make more of an effort this year...the Knicks are finally GOOD.
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NBA
Oct 23, 2021 0:22:39 GMT
Post by B.E. on Oct 23, 2021 0:22:39 GMT
By the way, the shotmaking in the double OT opener vs Boston was insane!
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NBA
Oct 23, 2021 22:17:16 GMT
Post by B.E. on Oct 23, 2021 22:17:16 GMT
The complete list of the NBA's 75 greatest players of all-time.
I was slightly surprised at the Dave DeBusschere choice. Obviously I never saw him play but Bill Sharman surprised me. Dennis Rodman? One of the 75 best? And, Bill Walton certainly had the skills to be selected, but...
DeBusschere, Sharman, and Walton were on the 50th list. Not that we can't discusses them. On the contrary, I'm currently diving head first into this rabbit hole. Just wanted to point that out, though. I think that was the right choice. Keep the 50th in tact and add 25 more. Or 26 more, apparently, what's up with that? As for Dennis Rodman, I think I disagree with you guys. I'm leaning towards him belonging on the list. More on that later... EDIT: Wait, did they vote from scratch for the 75th list but just so happened to include every player from the 50th list? Hmm. Obviously, having made the 50th team only padded out their resumes even more and made it that much harder to vote against them. I suppose I could be convinced not including some of the original 50 is OK, but it just doesn't really feel right to me. I mean, is a guy like Carmelo Anthony, a great scorer but little else, really worth knocking off champions and All-NBA 1st teamers from prior eras? If there weren't enough room for players who have (consistently) carried their teams deep into the playoffs, that's one thing, but there's plenty of room for those guys, I think.
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NBA
Oct 23, 2021 22:42:08 GMT
Post by B.E. on Oct 23, 2021 22:42:08 GMT
I'll take a look soon, here, but two quick comments: - I LOVE--but also HATE--this kind of list! They are so much fun to speculate on, but every time I try to get serious about making or reviewing them, I quickly remember that they're impossible. What do we mean by greatest? Highest peaks? Longest stretches of excellence? Winning? Etc. You mentioned Bill Walton, and he's a great example: one of the most talented, and at his peak one of the best, players. But not for long. Much of his career he wasn't all that great, unfortunately, due to injuries. From a later era, think of Larry Johnson: in his first couple seasons, he was one of the best in the league and seemed on his way to superstardom. But it wasn't to last, again due to injuries. (Obviously I am not campaigning for LJ in the Top 75 ... but where is the line? When is an LJ not OK but a Walton OK?) Or what about different eras? Does someone dominating the '50s mean as much as someone dominating the '10s? 1) Probably when one has an MVP and a Finals MVP. I think a good example could have been Derrick Rose. He made it to the Conference Finals in 2011. What if they had won the championship? Walton is still borderline for me because his peak was so short, but I think if you are THE best player for a year or two and win all the accolades (most importantly, the championship), then you probably deserve it over a guy with longevity but never won it all. If you think about it like this: there are 75 years of the NBA, one spot for the best player of each year. Obviously, the best player may have spanned multiple seasons, so that opens the door for other 'top 5' guys. 2) When worded like that, I actually think it does, because it's relative. That said, if we were starting the 75 list from scratch--though I would defer significantly to NOT comparing the eras--I couldn't be absolute in that. All else being equal, I might use it as a tiebreaker. (Or I'd just assign it a value of 5-10% or something. And what we are really talking about here is the average physical size and athleticism of the modern era, as well as, outside shooting ability.)
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NBA
Oct 24, 2021 11:50:25 GMT
B.E. likes this
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 24, 2021 11:50:25 GMT
The complete list of the NBA's 75 greatest players of all-time.
I was slightly surprised at the Dave DeBusschere choice. Obviously I never saw him play but Bill Sharman surprised me. Dennis Rodman? One of the 75 best? And, Bill Walton certainly had the skills to be selected, but...
DeBusschere, Sharman, and Walton were on the 50th list. Not that we can't discusses them. And I had questions then, too!
I view the list as the superstars of the superstars, and I didn't view DeBusschere that way. Make no mistake, he was great player, a workmanlike, dependable grinder. His statistics over 13 years are remarkably consistent, and the Knicks probably wouldn't have won their championships without him. Let me reconsider this one.
I remember my buddies and I were more intrigued that Dave DeBusschere was also a major league pitcher, having pitched a shutout for the Chicago White Sox.
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NBA
Oct 24, 2021 12:01:13 GMT
Post by Kapitan on Oct 24, 2021 12:01:13 GMT
As for Dennis Rodman, I think I disagree with you guys. I'm leaning towards him belonging on the list. More on that later... ... I mean, is a guy like Carmelo Anthony, a great scorer but little else, really worth knocking off champions and All-NBA 1st teamers from prior eras? If there weren't enough room for players who have (consistently) carried their teams deep into the playoffs, that's one thing, but there's plenty of room for those guys, I think. Isn't the latter more or less just the mirror image of the former? Yes, Rodman's teams won big ... but was Dennis Rodman the deciding factor in that regard, as opposed to Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Bill Laimbeer, Mark Aguirre; Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc? One suspects Carmelo would have won titles on similarly talented teams despite being an offense-only player.
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NBA
Oct 24, 2021 12:43:47 GMT
Post by B.E. on Oct 24, 2021 12:43:47 GMT
DeBusschere, Sharman, and Walton were on the 50th list. Not that we can't discusses them. And I had questions then, too!
I view the list as the superstars of the superstars, and I didn't view DeBusschere that way. Make no mistake, he was great player, a workmanlike, dependable grinder. His statistics over 13 years are remarkably consistent, and the Knicks probably wouldn't have won their championships without him. Let me reconsider this one.
I remember my buddies and I were more intrigued that Dave DeBusschere was also a major league pitcher, having pitched a shutout for the Chicago White Sox. I hear ya. The only thing I'd say to that is there probably weren't 50 "superstars of the superstars" then (or 75, now). That would be a more exclusive list. That said, I don't think someone like DeBusschere should have made the (original) list over someone like Bob McAdoo (whom I'm glad was included on the 75th list). The deeper I get into this, the more I think I'm going to come up with my own list of 75, and I think DeBusschere won't make it. Walton will. I haven't considered Sharman yet. And I will definitely be making changes to the new 24. Oh, and cool pictures SJS. I had forgotten about his MLB career!
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NBA
Oct 24, 2021 13:12:17 GMT
Post by B.E. on Oct 24, 2021 13:12:17 GMT
As for Dennis Rodman, I think I disagree with you guys. I'm leaning towards him belonging on the list. More on that later... ... I mean, is a guy like Carmelo Anthony, a great scorer but little else, really worth knocking off champions and All-NBA 1st teamers from prior eras? If there weren't enough room for players who have (consistently) carried their teams deep into the playoffs, that's one thing, but there's plenty of room for those guys, I think. Isn't the latter more or less just the mirror image of the former? Yes, Rodman's teams won big ... but was Dennis Rodman the deciding factor in that regard, as opposed to Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Bill Laimbeer, Mark Aguirre; Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc? One suspects Carmelo would have won titles on similarly talented teams despite being an offense-only player. Well, I'm not sure I'd rank Rodman below Aguirre and Kukoc in terms of importance to those championship teams, but I do think winning (5 rings to 0) means a lot. I agree with you that we could play "what if" and swap players on and off championship teams and we could play "what if" in regard to injuries, but I think, ultimately, the players who proved it on the court deserve the nod. All that said, the deeper I get into this, I'm thinking Rodman might not make it. My gut reaction to disagree with you guys was more a result of believing that you don't need to be well-rounded to make such a list. If you are an all-time great (i.e. truly exceptional and unique) in even just one aspect and it contributes to winning at the highest level, I think you could make it. As for Melo, I've currently got Adrian Dantley and Alex English slightly above him (they had more playoff success and while Melo did it for a few more years I attribute that to modern medicine). By the way, I spent a lot of time learning about Dantley last night. He really was Melo before Melo! (But, arguably better.) And a guy that may or may not have won a ring if he wasn't traded from Detroit (or if Melo was on better teams)...or was it their ball-stopping-"I'm the man"-ego that kept them from winning? I actually think Dantley would have won with Detroit, and he wasn't the reason they lost when he was there, but that's why I gotta go with what actually happened - with who won - because there's no way to really know.
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NBA
Oct 24, 2021 13:27:20 GMT
Post by Kapitan on Oct 24, 2021 13:27:20 GMT
A lot of guys were "Melo before Melo" in the '70s and '80s! Offense was so prominent and defense was, well, technically part of the game.
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NBA
Oct 25, 2021 12:47:43 GMT
Post by Kapitan on Oct 25, 2021 12:47:43 GMT
ESPN's "experts" had a feature about the Top 75 list. Here are a few interesting takeaways. Both sets of names aren't in order or ranked in any way; I have just listed all players named in each of those two categories.
Most surprising inclusions: - Damian Lillard - Dominique Wilkins - Bob McAdoo - Bill Walton - Anthony Davis
Biggest snubs: - Dwight Howard - Kyrie Irving - Manu Ginobilli - Tracy McGrady - Pau Gasol - Klay Thompson - Paul George - Tony Parker - Alonzo Mourning - Ben Wallace
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NBA
Oct 25, 2021 13:05:55 GMT
Post by Sheriff John Stone on Oct 25, 2021 13:05:55 GMT
It's so close. Really. I think some of the active players will be re-considered more strongly when they retire. I was little surprised to see Damian Lillard on the list.
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NBA
Oct 26, 2021 1:21:17 GMT
Post by B.E. on Oct 26, 2021 1:21:17 GMT
ESPN's "experts" had a feature about the Top 75 list. Here are a few interesting takeaways. Both sets of names aren't in order or ranked in any way; I have just listed all players named in each of those two categories.
Most surprising inclusions: - Damian Lillard - Dominique Wilkins - Bob McAdoo - Bill Walton - Anthony Davis
Biggest snubs: - Dwight Howard - Kyrie Irving - Manu Ginobilli - Tracy McGrady - Pau Gasol - Klay Thompson - Paul George - Tony Parker - Alonzo Mourning - Ben Wallace
I probably won't finish my list 'til the weekend, so in the meantime here are the top 3 MVP vote finishers that weren't included on the 75 list: George Yardley; 3rd; '57-58 Bob Lanier; 3rd; '73-74 David Thompson; 3rd; '77-78 Bernard King; 2nd; '83-84 Penny Hardaway; 3rd; '95-96 Grant Hill; 3rd; '96-97 Alonzo Mourning; 2nd; '98-99; 3rd; '99-00 Jermaine O'Neal; 3rd; '03-04 Derrick Rose; 1st; '10-11 Dwight Howard; 2nd; '10-11 Blake Griffin; 3rd; '13-14 Paul George; 3rd; '18-19 Nikola Jokic; 1st; '20-21 Joel Embiid; 2nd; '20-21 I was looking for a list of the top 5 for each season, but couldn't find one. So, I watched a YouTube video of the top 3.
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NBA
Oct 26, 2021 1:34:17 GMT
Post by B.E. on Oct 26, 2021 1:34:17 GMT
I also stumbled upon an interesting tidbit in my travels: John Drew has one of the highest points per minute of ALL-TIME. He averaged 20.7ppg for his career...in only 29.5 minutes per game.
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NBA
Oct 26, 2021 11:54:47 GMT
B.E. likes this
Post by Kapitan on Oct 26, 2021 11:54:47 GMT
I also stumbled upon an interesting tidbit in my travels: John Drew has one of the highest points per minute of ALL-TIME. He averaged 20.7ppg for his career...in only 29.5 minutes per game. First player ever banned by the league under its substance abuse policy. He was already on the decline by then, being 30 (and having had a cocaine problem for years. He had been in and out of rehab repeatedly.
Drew also left college (Gardner Webb) after only two years, a rarity at the time. The Supreme Court had only recently (1971) ruled in favor of Spencer Haywood against the NBA and its old rule that players could not enter the NBA until four years after their high school class graduated. He--Drew, I mean--was really good!
But maybe the most impactful moment of his career was when he was packaged with Freeman Williams (another shoot-first ... and shoot-second) shooting guard and sent to the Utah Jazz for Dominique Wilkins, who wasn't willing to sign with Utah (which drafted him #3 in 1982).
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