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Post by B.E. on Feb 18, 2021 0:18:45 GMT
Rubber Soul is an easy ten for me. Although, I really don't think there's a huge divide between the quality of Help and Rubber Soul. There's definitely some growth musically here. I think I'll post more when the coffee kicks in. I completely agree. I haven't gotten around to discussing Help yet, unfortunately, but I've been enjoying it as much as ever lately. Actually, I'm hesitant to even give Rubber Soul the nod, musically. I just think the approach was different. With Rubber Soul, I get the feeling that they were trying harder to perfect their craft. So, it's a bit more refined-sounding, performance-wise (although, there are imperfections). And, the arrangements are more thoughtful. I don't know, it just sounds like they spent more time on it, but that doesn't make Help any less great. Conversely, I almost want to say that Help sounds fresher...more joyful...youthful.
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Post by B.E. on Feb 18, 2021 0:55:22 GMT
With the previous Beatles' albums, I can easily list the "great" songs on the respective albums, and on some of those albums, there's five or six. As I scroll through the Rubber Soul tracklist, I can only come up with a couple - "Norwegian Wood", "Nowhere Man", and maybe "If I Needed Someone". I find other songs like "Drive My Car", "You Won't See Me" and "I'm Looking Through You" as good to very good.; I like them but they're not all-timers. And, I know this opinion is controversial, but I don't think John's "Girl" and "In My Life" are great songs either - nice but nothing spectacular - and I actually find them slightly boring. "Michelle"? Nice melody. "Run For Your Life? Good. "The Word" and "What Goes On"? No.
I agree with what Kapitan said, and I see that you recognize your opinion is somewhat unpopular/controversial (though, you still gave it an 8), but I still gotta say that I think you're underrating "In My Life', in particular, but also "Michelle" and "Girl". Those are all top tier Beatles songs, 2nd tier at worst. I respect your opinion, and I'm not trying to change your mind, but obviously you're just not hearing "it" for whatever reason on those tunes. I guess this is as good a time as any to mention something that's been on my mind as I re-listen to Rubber Soul: John's vocal performance is OUTSTANDING throughout. In fact, this could be his peak. I certainly don't think he tops (or even matches) this moving forward. It's not just the sound of his voice, but the control of it and the care he put into the performances. Now, while this is partly writing, the way he sings the verses of "Girl" is fantastic. Listen to the timing of the delivery. Another song I wanted to comment on (and appears to be getting kicked around a bit ) is "What Goes On". Anyone else notice how after the second verse they just sing the first line of the (3rd) chorus before dropping out in favor of a guitar solo? That stood out to me as an interesting choice, structurally. I've always loved John's singing on this one (I know, I know, I'm a broken record) but especially the climax of the chorus. After a little investigating I understand why, John's singing a "suspended" note which spices things up. Hey, I even love the melodramatic " did you mean to break my heart and watch me die?" line. Not quite " did she understand it when they said that a man must break his back to earn his day of leisure? Will she still believe it when he's dead?" Or the highly original " I'd rather see you dead, little girl, than to be with another man"...Oh wait...something of a pattern? Boy, they are so mature now. Kinda dark. Seriously, though, John sings "Run For Your Life" incredibly well. Very emotive, and sharp. He sounds like the man he's depicting - a wicked guy with a jealous mind. Listen to how he sings " let this be a sermon, I mean everything I said" (oh, there's that word! ). He sounds possessed! Great singing. EDIT: More "unhinged" than "possessed", I suppose, but you know what I mean. The more I think about Rubber Soul and where it improves upon what came before, I guess I'd have to say that, overall, it's more interesting lyrically.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 18, 2021 13:25:43 GMT
With the previous Beatles' albums, I can easily list the "great" songs on the respective albums, and on some of those albums, there's five or six. As I scroll through the Rubber Soul tracklist, I can only come up with a couple - "Norwegian Wood", "Nowhere Man", and maybe "If I Needed Someone". I find other songs like "Drive My Car", "You Won't See Me" and "I'm Looking Through You" as good to very good.; I like them but they're not all-timers. And, I know this opinion is controversial, but I don't think John's "Girl" and "In My Life" are great songs either - nice but nothing spectacular - and I actually find them slightly boring. "Michelle"? Nice melody. "Run For Your Life? Good. "The Word" and "What Goes On"? No.
I agree with what Kapitan said, and I see that you recognize your opinion is somewhat unpopular/controversial (though, you still gave it an 8), but I still gotta say that I think you're underrating "In My Life', in particular, but also "Michelle" and "Girl". Those are all top tier Beatles songs, 2nd tier at worst. I respect your opinion, and I'm not trying to change your mind, but obviously you're just not hearing "it" for whatever reason on those tunes. Yes, I gave Rubber Soul an 8. I gave Beatles For Sale a 7 so I kinda locked myself in. Rubber Soul is better than Beatles For Sale, but I won't go to a 9. That's going into "great" territory and I don't think Rubber Soul is a great album. I mentioned my constant surprise at Brian Wilson's overwhelming praise of Rubber Soul through the years (in much the way I'm surprised at his Phil Spector obsession). I'm even more surprised at Rubber Soul consistently appearing near or at the top of Greatest Albums Of All Time polls. Hell, it's not even The Beatles' best album; to me there's at least seven or eight better!
Like I posted above, I'm always searching for Rubber Soul's greatness. I've listened to Rubber Soul several times over the years just to look for the magic. What am I missing? Which songs will move me? What are they trying to say? What am to take from this...progression? Meh. The songs on the album that rock don't rock enough. The slow songs/ballads on the album don't reach me like other Lennon/McCartney "love songs". There are no fun or rollicking covers. I'm getting ahead of things but there isn't enough psychedelia to make an impression. I know they were trying to expand or consciously move away from the basic guitar/bass/drum/occasional keyboard sound, and I guess they succeeded, but not enough to...blow me away (unlike A Hard Day's Night and Help! which do). Rubber Soul doesn't have to fall into any category. It doesn't have to be compared. It doesn't have to resemble past efforts. It doesn't have to be a "progression". It can stand on it's own, much like Pet Sounds. It can simply be another album of 12 Lennon/McCartney songs and 2 George Harrison songs - clocking in at 34:55 (yes!) - in 1965. Yes, the production, arrangements, musicianship, and vocals are up to the usual standards of The Beatles. No, I don't think the songs - and that's the bottom line for me - exceed the standards of many of their other albums.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 18, 2021 14:28:15 GMT
One thing I don’t think I ever realized was that the title Rubber Soul was at least in part a reference to the band considering this music an artificial (British) brand of (American) soul music.
“Drive My Car” is an example: I just heard it as “Drive My Car.” Never as an attempt at soul music, though once you think of it in those terms, it’s obvious. (I never much cared either way about this song as a little kid, really only liking the joke of “I got no car … but I found a drive, and that’s a start.”) And not just obvious on that song, but a good many of them.
I’ve been a fan of this band as long as I’ve been conscious of music, and yet somehow never caught that. I suppose it’s partly that I wasn’t a fan of Motown or soul music as a kid, when I was absorbing the Beatles. It’s funny how our experiences can seem entirely complete and full such as they are … and yet entirely miss something.
The album also seems to be an advance in vocal arrangements, performances, and production. It’s not to say they’d never been a good vocal harmony group, that’s just not the case at all. But it seems (without actually going back and comparing notes) that there were more examples of better backgrounds. And not just on the singles: I’m thinking things like “The Word.”
I do have to quibble with B.E. on his examples of SJS underrating songs including “In My Life,” “Michelle,” and “Girl.” I’d venture that B.E. is overrating the latter two—by a lot. “Top tier Beatles songs, 2nd tier at worst”!? They’re not even on the second tier of the album they appear on, in my opinion. (I’m not saying they’re bad songs; we are, after all, talking Beatles.)
“Girl” actually might be my least favorite song on the album. And in fact I almost dislike it, especially the gimmicky intake of breath.
Some of what I do love are a few of the obvious songs, but some of the typically overlooked, as well. Like B.E., I think “What Goes On” is great. The instrumental track is fabulous, a country-rockabilly tune that really, really grooves thanks in large part to that bass. And I agree that the guitar solo placement is a nice arrangement touch. (I think little quirks of arrangement are extra-effective in otherwise formulaic songs, while I’d say stranger songs benefit from more typical arrangements.)
Similarly, I love “Run For Your Life” (narrator’s odious tendencies notwithstanding), “The Word,” “Think For Yourself,” and other album tracks that don’t necessarily get the publicity of a “Nowhere Man” or “Norwegian Wood” (both of which I also love).
In the end, I can almost see where SJS is coming from, though. I do think the album lacks some at the very top in terms of those shimmering, brilliant, single-type songs. (Would “Day Tripper” and “We Can Work It Out” have changed that, had they been included rather than released separately?)
It’s just that the average of what’s left, for me, is a batch of really strong (even if not brilliant, top-notch) songs that make the album a real standout despite that relative absence.
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Post by lonelysummer on Feb 19, 2021 2:57:30 GMT
I'm just sitting on the sidelines for now. I have the UK albums, but the ones ingrained in my memory will always be the US versions. The Beatles were the first band I ever loved, at the tender age of 4 years old. I played the Beatles US albums endlessly. If "This Boy" is on the radio, when it's done, in my head I hear "It Won't Be Long". "Roll Over Beethoven" leads into "Thank You Girl". "I've Just Seen a Face" is the opening track of Rubber Soul. And Help! has that silly fake Indian music on it. So when I hear a Rubber Soul that kicks off with "Drive My Car", it just sounds wrong! "This is supposed to be an acoustic album!" I admit I am in the minority. The rest of the world accepts the UK versions as the legit ones (although it puzzles me why one of the original UK albums, A Collection of Beatles Oldies, is not part of the core catalog. Was it ever released on cd?) Sorry to derail the thread. I'll rejoin you when we get to Dr. Pepper.
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Post by jk on Feb 19, 2021 11:00:39 GMT
I'm just sitting on the sidelines for now. I have the UK albums, but the ones ingrained in my memory will always be the US versions. The Beatles were the first band I ever loved, at the tender age of 4 years old. I played the Beatles US albums endlessly. If "This Boy" is on the radio, when it's done, in my head I hear "It Won't Be Long". "Roll Over Beethoven" leads into "Thank You Girl". "I've Just Seen a Face" is the opening track of Rubber Soul. And Help! has that silly fake Indian music on it. So when I hear a Rubber Soul that kicks off with "Drive My Car", it just sounds wrong! "This is supposed to be an acoustic album!" I admit I am in the minority. The rest of the world accepts the UK versions as the legit ones (although it puzzles me why one of the original UK albums, A Collection of Beatles Oldies, is not part of the core catalog. Was it ever released on cd?) Sorry to derail the thread. I'll rejoin you when we get to Dr. Pepper.H'mm, LS. Would that be "Doctor Robert" or Sgt. Pepper? It's always the same. One prefers the version of the album one's used to. I first heard (in this millennium) the US release of Culture Club's Kissing to be Clever (1982), where side one, track one is their debut hit and side two starts with "Time (Clock of The Heart)", which was not on the original pressing. Now that version makes more sense to me, even though it wasn't what Levine & co originally envisaged.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 19, 2021 12:41:03 GMT
My similar experience is with Freddie Mercury's solo music: I had never seen nor heard of Mr. Bad Guy, but there was an album called The Great Pretender in the U.S. that had some of that material (mostly with guitar-heavy mixes instead of dance mixes) plus some of his singles. Those U.S. release versions are still the ones I think of as original, though they were later.
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Post by kds on Feb 19, 2021 13:36:16 GMT
My similar experience is with Freddie Mercury's solo music: I had never seen nor heard of Mr. Bad Guy, but there was an album called The Great Pretender in the U.S. that had some of that material (mostly with guitar-heavy mixes instead of dance mixes) plus some of his singles. Those U.S. release versions are still the ones I think of as original, though they were later. The Great Pretender was also my introduction to Freddie's solo music. However, with The Beatles, I didn't get into their albums until well into the CD era, in which the proper UK albums were released, with the exception of Magical Mystery Tour, which is the US version. I think I've finally gathered my thoughts on Rubber Soul. I feel like this, and Revolver, are really the last links to the early Beatles, which makes sense because they were still a touring band at this point, and had yet to make the decision to concentrate solely on studio creations which were pretty much impossible for a four piece band to recreate on stage at that time. I think it's a great varied album. You get some good rockers like Drive My Car, Run For Your Life, and The Word (with that great organ part). George got TWO songs on the album. I think In My Life might feature Lennon's all time best lyrics. It's simple, poignant, and something everybody can relate to. Nowhere Man, Girl, and Norwegian Wood are also amazing Lennon songs. As stated, the only real blip is What Goes On, but (unlike BB talk tracks) it's not enough for me to downgrade my ten vote.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 23, 2021 12:25:19 GMT
Last day to vote on Rubber Soul; we'll move on tomorrow, so be sure to vote (if you haven't).
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 24, 2021 12:20:06 GMT
Eight voters have voted the Beatles' Rubber Soul an average of 9.4. I'll update the initial post, and we'll launch our next album shortly.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 24, 2021 12:45:16 GMT
In August 1966, the Beatles released another album that could be considered transitional: Revolver. It was their final album on the approximate "every six months" schedule for new releases. It was their final album before retiring from touring. It was their final core album to have different US and UK versions and release dates.
The group began sessions in April with one of the more experimental songs on the album (and their career), "Tomorrow Never Knows," built on tape loops, and concluded in June with "She Said She Said," from which Paul McCartney walked out in an argument. The group reportedly spent nearly three times as long recording Revolver as they had Rubber Soul (220 hours to 80 hours).
Two songs from the album were released as a single: "Eleanor Rigby" bw "Yellow Submarine" were released the same day as the album. The A-side reached #1 in most places and #11 in the US; the other A-side was #1 in even more countries. (The sessions also produced a non-album single, "Paperback Writer" bw "Rain," which was released in May '66 and will be discussed in the Past Masters II discussion.)
In the end, they had another #1. US, UK, Australia, West Germany, Sweden... In the end, they had another multiplatinum album.
Please rate and discuss Revolver.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 24, 2021 12:59:55 GMT
I'll kick things off here, as there isn't much thought required of me.
10.
At various times in my life, this has been my favorite Beatles album. It's always among the top five (which wouldn't sound like much for most bands' catalogues, but considering how many great Beatles albums there are, being in the top five is quite an accomplishment). I love this album. It is brilliant.
I'll try to say something more interesting about it later.
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Post by kds on Feb 24, 2021 13:29:46 GMT
It's a true testament to the greatness of The Beatles that they had several albums to their credit that could be in the discussion for greatest album of all time. Most great bands have one such album. A select few might have two or even three.
Revolver is one such album.
First of all, kudos to George, who is really starting to step out of the shadows at this point. He's got three compositions on the album, including the lead off song - Taxman. We also get some of the more divisive element that George brought to the table - Eastern influenced music with Love You To. George's Eastern influenced songs have divided Beatles fans for years. I'm pretty much in the middle. I think it works here. Less so on some later songs, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Those other two song writers? They're in top form (as per usual). John delivers possibly his two most underrated great Beatles songs in I'm Only Sleeping and And Your Bird Can Sing, although it seems like the later song has really gained popularity in recent years. Paul gives us an all timer with Eleanor Rigby, and probably his most underrated great Beatles song with the sublime For No One.
The Beatles get a little more psyched up with She Said She Said and Tomorrow Never Knows. Some brilliant sequencing too with the trippy She Said She Said being bookended by Yellow Submarine and Good Day Sunshine.
Just a great album.
Ten
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 24, 2021 13:35:49 GMT
The Beatles get a little more psyched up with She Said She Said and Tomorrow Never Knows. Lysergic acid takes a prominent role...
This is, as I understand it, the peak of Lennon's, Harrison's, and Starr's experimentation with LSD. (McCartney seems to have taken it in very late '65, as well, though at various times he has given different answers. But he wasn't as keen on it as his bandmates.)
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Post by kds on Feb 24, 2021 13:41:07 GMT
The Beatles get a little more psyched up with She Said She Said and Tomorrow Never Knows. Lysergic acid takes a prominent role...
This is, as I understand it, the peak of Lennon's, Harrison's, and Starr's experimentation with LSD. (McCartney seems to have taken it in very late '65, as well, though at various times he has given different answers. But he wasn't as keen on it as his bandmates.)
That's not too surprising as Paul's music never seemed to be as "trippy" as John's or George's.
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