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Post by kds on Oct 30, 2020 14:56:44 GMT
(This rambling rant is not to be taken seriously by anyone.)
Ah, Halloween, one of my favorite holidays. A time where we honor monsters, and don't get mad at each other. But, Halloween is different now. Not specially the 2020 COVID version, but it's been different for a few years.
When I was a kid in the early 80s, there used to be a lot of animated Halloween programming, and not all of it was super cute. Case in point some early Disney shorts like 1929's The Haunted House. Quite creepy in spots. Same with 1985's Garfield's Halloween Adventure, which (SPOILER ALERT) takes an abrupt left to horror in the third act. Not animated, but Nickelodeon aired the special Marc Summers' Mystery Magical Tour in 1988. Again, it definitely had some horror elements. But, it seems like most of these have disappeared over time, with the exception of It's the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown, and even that's no longer on TV. If you want to find some of these classic Halloween shows, you have to dig on the internet.
And costumes. When I was in my trick or treating years, I dressed up as a ghost, Dracula, Jason Voorhies, Freddy Kruger (twice), and a devil. Nowadays, every kid is dressed as a superhero or a princess. What the hell happened?
When I was a kid, they used to sell bone shaped candy in little plastic coffins. We used to sing songs about hearses and worms eating our remains. We used to play that game where you blindfold kids and make them touch wet food items, saying "these are eyes, these are brains." Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark was a three volume set of essential reading.
What the hell happened? My generation that was reared on horror Halloween grew up and sanitized it. Where are the scary costumes, fun songs about corpses, mild horror cartoons, candy filled caskets, and homemade haunted houses? Are you really telling me that fucking Hocus Pocus is the pinnacle of Halloween entertainment?
I'm not even going to go into the debacle that is the modern adult Halloween, just another amateur drinking night for people to get sloshed and for women to dress up like strippers (OK, I'll admit, I didn't used to mind that part).
I have a toddler who is soon to turn three, and he's still in that phase where we don't want to show him too much scary stuff. But, there's a bin in the basement, of my pre parent Halloween decorations. It's waiting. I hope in the coming years to show him those creepy TV specials, play those creepy songs, and read Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. I'm probably not going to find 35 year old bone candy on Ebay, so that one will be lost on him.
So, this long winded nonsense is really just to see that I hate to see Halloween get too cute. I think a little bit of fear is healthy, and makes for stronger adults. After all, Halloween was founded on fear by the Celts, under the name Samhain. It's a time for fun, fear, mystery, macabre, wonder, and whimsy. I hope that remains.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 4, 2020 13:33:36 GMT
I meant to respond to this at the time and just now realized I'd let it slip. But I ALWAYS love KDS "get off my lawn" posts, and this one I also happen to agree with. The last paragraph is key. The Disneyfication of the world isn't helpful for making real, functional adults. If you round off every corner, put a spotlight in every shadow, dull every sharp object, and plug your ears at every scary sound, you raise pampered weaklings who can't deal with reality. Halloween is an example of good scary. It's a gentle introduction to realities of death, all while obviously a lot of fun. No, I wouldn't toss a 2-year-old in front of a gory horror movie or in a terrifying haunted house, but as kids get older, they should be introduced to these things. And--much like with physical, rough-house play with boys--most kids will LIKE the fear.
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Post by kds on Nov 4, 2020 13:44:37 GMT
I meant to respond to this at the time and just now realized I'd let it slip. But I ALWAYS love KDS "get off my lawn" posts, and this one I also happen to agree with. The last paragraph is key. The Disneyfication of the world isn't helpful for making real, functional adults. If you round off every corner, put a spotlight in every shadow, dull every sharp object, and plug your ears at every scary sound, you raise pampered weaklings who can't deal with reality. Halloween is an example of good scary. It's a gentle introduction to realities of death, all while obviously a lot of fun. No, I wouldn't toss a 2-year-old in front of a gory horror movie or in a terrifying haunted house, but as kids get older, they should be introduced to these things. And--much like with physical, rough-house play with boys--most kids will LIKE the fear. Well, tomorrow is Guy Fawkes Day, so we're technically still in the Halloween season. Fear is a healthy release. After all, the world is a scary place. I feel like there's a divide where Halloween for kids is becoming overly sanitized while for adults, it's actually getting more over the top - with the "torture porn" subgenre of horror and extreme haunted attractions. There should be a good middle ground.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 4, 2020 14:32:55 GMT
My view isn't earth-shattering; I'm almost being Captain Obvious.
Today's movies, TV shows, music, social media, and some video games continue to be extremely violent. I'll tune into a movie on cable TV, and after a couple of minutes think, "This is sick." I sometimes wonder how far the creators and producers can take these subjects.
On the other hand, I see many parents today being very protective of their children, and choosing to keep (or shield) them from any kind of weapons like guns, knives/swords, physical confrontation, and just any kind of violence. I suppose I agree with this, and if I had young children, my wife and I would probably follow this line of thought.
The problem is, when the child or youth or young adult reaches the age of 16,17,18, or whatever age they are when they make their own decisions/choices, they are then exposed (drawn?) to this crazy world we live in. Are they prepared to handle it? You hope that the good values they were exposed to from their parents are strong enough to get them through, and also that they would carry them through when they have children.
I'm rambling here, going off-topic a bit, and am probably naive, but I think violence is a huge problem in today's world, it's out of control frankly, and the...change...in Halloween is a reflection of this in several ways.
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Post by kds on Nov 4, 2020 14:46:26 GMT
My view isn't earth-shattering; I'm almost being Captain Obvious.
Today's movies, TV shows, music, social media, and some video games continue to be extremely violent. I'll tune into a movie on cable TV, and after a couple of minutes think, "This is sick." I sometimes wonder how far the creators and producers can take these subjects.
On the other hand, I see many parents today being very protective of their children, and choosing to keep (or shield) them from any kind of weapons like guns, knives/swords, physical confrontation, and just any kind of violence. I suppose I agree with this, and if I had young children, my wife and I would probably follow this line of thought.
The problem is, when the child or youth or young adult reaches the age of 16,17,18, or whatever age they are when they make their own decisions/choices, they are then exposed (drawn?) to this crazy world we live in. Are they prepared to handle it? You hope that the good values they were exposed to from their parents are strong enough to get them through, and also that they would carry them through when they have children.
I'm rambling here, going of topic a bit, and am probably naive, but I think violence is a huge problem in today's world, and the...change...in Halloween is a reflection of this in several ways.
Violence is a huge problem, and always has been. I feel like it's more amplified now. And I don't think making Halloween cute for kids is going to lessen it in any way.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 4, 2020 14:50:47 GMT
I generally agree with you, SJS. But I think that trying to entirely shield kids just makes their inevitable, eventual exposure to the darker side of life that much worse.
As an analogy, I think of people I knew in high school and college. If I were a parent, I wouldn't want my high schooler drinking, smoking, using drugs, or having sex. That said, the kids I saw go insane in college tended to be kids whose parents were overprotective of them in high school, meaning that their first taste of freedom was total and complete freedom. They didn't start in the shallow end, then into the main area of the pool, and then the deep end. They went from the dry land into the deep end and they didn't have swimwear, much less know how to swim.
That's how I think about many things, including the topics of exposure to death (e.g. fear, Halloween). Total, sudden exposure is the bigger risk. But of course that leaves a lot of wiggle room for people to decide how much is too much, too little, too soon, too late. That's for everyone to decide on his or her own.
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Post by kds on Nov 4, 2020 14:53:48 GMT
I generally agree with you, SJS. But I think that trying to entirely shield kids just makes their inevitable, eventual exposure to the darker side of life that much worse.
As an analogy, I think of people I knew in high school and college. If I were a parent, I wouldn't want my high schooler drinking, smoking, using drugs, or having sex. That said, the kids I saw go insane in college tended to be kids whose parents were overprotective of them in high school, meaning that their first taste of freedom was total and complete freedom. They didn't start in the shallow end, then into the main area of the pool, and then the deep end. They went from the dry land into the deep end and they didn't have swimwear, much less know how to swim.
That's how I think about many things, including the topics of exposure to death (e.g. fear, Halloween). Total, sudden exposure is the bigger risk. But of course that leaves a lot of wiggle room for people to decide how much is too much, too little, too soon, too late. That's for everyone to decide on his or her own.
I agree. As parents, its natural to want to shield your kids from the evils of the world, but that's how you get adults that can't handle adversity.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 4, 2020 14:54:15 GMT
On violence specifically, I do agree. But I also think it falls into the same general category as I outlined above. I also think violence has more to do with the morals one is raised with, as opposed to the entertainment one is exposed to. (Though how you are raised may well affect what you choose to do or see for entertainment.)
This is one of those things rural and urban America seem to fight about all the time. Kids--especially boys--in rural America are far more apt to be taught to shoot guns, to own firearms, to hunt, and even to have what is considered an outdated view of fighting amongst themselves (e.g., it's not that big a deal as long as it is a fair fight and nobody brings weapons). But despite those things that urban people would find repulsive, there is far less violence per capita in rural areas than in the "violence-free" areas.
It could be that having an understanding of violence and a healthy respect for it helps people as they mature to know to avoid it. And if they happen to have also obtained self-defense skills in the process, so much the better.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 4, 2020 15:04:04 GMT
I'm sure you're always going to have those examples of kids who were shielded from "bad influences" growing up, suddenly being on their own, being exposed to it, and not handling it well, ultimately succumbing to the temptations. I'm thinking of Jim Morrison (ha ha). But, I also don't think that's an excuse for parents to allow certain things in raising their children, thinking, "Well, eventually they're going to have to confront it...", so, what's wrong with exposing them to it now. I'm not saying it's cut and dry, black and white, all or nothing. But, I cringe a little bit at allowing things because it's inevitable. I do give kids some/more credit to be able to have foresight.
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Post by kds on Nov 4, 2020 15:05:26 GMT
On violence specifically, I do agree. But I also think it falls into the same general category as I outlined above. I also think violence has more to do with the morals one is raised with, as opposed to the entertainment one is exposed to. (Though how you are raised may well affect what you choose to do or see for entertainment.)
This is one of those things rural and urban America seem to fight about all the time. Kids--especially boys--in rural America are far more apt to be taught to shoot guns, to own firearms, to hunt, and even to have what is considered an outdated view of fighting amongst themselves (e.g., it's not that big a deal as long as it is a fair fight and nobody brings weapons). But despite those things that urban people would find repulsive, there is far less violence per capita in rural areas than in the "violence-free" areas.
It could be that having an understanding of violence and a healthy respect for it helps people as they mature to know to avoid it. And if they happen to have also obtained self-defense skills in the process, so much the better.
I've always hated the narrative of movies, video games, or whatever having an effect on violence or crime. You're 100% right, it's all about upbringing. When I was very young, my parents ingrained in my brain that the stuff I saw on television was not real. I think that's why some of the more creepy things I watched around Halloween time didn't scare me that much.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 4, 2020 15:10:20 GMT
On violence specifically, I do agree. But I also think it falls into the same general category as I outlined above. I also think violence has more to do with the morals one is raised with, as opposed to the entertainment one is exposed to. (Though how you are raised may well affect what you choose to do or see for entertainment.)
This is one of those things rural and urban America seem to fight about all the time. Kids--especially boys--in rural America are far more apt to be taught to shoot guns, to own firearms, to hunt, and even to have what is considered an outdated view of fighting amongst themselves (e.g., it's not that big a deal as long as it is a fair fight and nobody brings weapons). But despite those things that urban people would find repulsive, there is far less violence per capita in rural areas than in the "violence-free" areas.
It could be that having an understanding of violence and a healthy respect for it helps people as they mature to know to avoid it. And if they happen to have also obtained self-defense skills in the process, so much the better.
I've always hated the narrative of movies, video games, or whatever having an effect on violence or crime. You're 100% right, it's all about upbringing. When I was very young, my parents ingrained in my brain that the stuff I saw on television was not real. I think that's why some of the more creepy things I watched around Halloween time didn't scare me that much. I think studies are showing that movies, TV shows video games, music (especially lyrics), social media and other things are proven to be influences on violent criminals. Copycat crime is rampant. People (kids?) are seeing/hearing violence somewhere, much, much more than the past (how far do you want to go back?)
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 4, 2020 15:10:28 GMT
I'm sure you're always going to have those examples of kids who were shielded from "bad influences" growing up, suddenly being on their own, being exposed to it, and not handling it well, ultimately succumbing to the temptations. I'm thinking of Jim Morrison (ha ha). But, I also don't think that's an excuse for parents to allow certain things in raising their children, thinking, "Well, eventually they're going to have to confront it...", so, what's wrong with exposing them to it now. I'm not saying it's cut and dry, black and white, all or nothing. But, I cringe a little bit at allowing things because it's inevitable. I do give kids some/more credit to be able to have foresight. We agree. I don't think parents should just be overly permissive. I do think it is a matter of degree, and I fully realize and accept that different people will choose different markers of what to allow or disallow (or how to react to violations).
For example, I wouldn't allow my kids to drink, smoke, use drugs, or have sex. But the kids I'm talking about were kids whose parents--for fear of those things--also wouldn't let kids listen to rock music, attend concerts, hang out with anyone who had ever done anything questionable, go to dances, have girlfriends/boyfriends, etc.
My point is, if you draw the line in realistic places, even if they are strict, and you are honest about why the rules are what they are, it seems to me the kids are more likely to end up more responsible. And of course the lines you draw would change as the child demonstrates responsibility and earns the trust.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 4, 2020 15:14:28 GMT
I'm sure you're always going to have those examples of kids who were shielded from "bad influences" growing up, suddenly being on their own, being exposed to it, and not handling it well, ultimately succumbing to the temptations. I'm thinking of Jim Morrison (ha ha). But, I also don't think that's an excuse for parents to allow certain things in raising their children, thinking, "Well, eventually they're going to have to confront it...", so, what's wrong with exposing them to it now. I'm not saying it's cut and dry, black and white, all or nothing. But, I cringe a little bit at allowing things because it's inevitable. I do give kids some/more credit to be able to have foresight. We agree. I don't think parents should just be overly permissive. I do think it is a matter of degree, and I fully realize and accept that different people will choose different markers of what to allow or disallow (or how to react to violations).
For example, I wouldn't allow my kids to drink, smoke, use drugs, or have sex. But the kids I'm talking about were kids whose parents--for fear of those things--also wouldn't let kids listen to rock music, attend concerts, hang out with anyone who had ever done anything questionable, go to dances, have girlfriends/boyfriends, etc.
My point is, if you draw the line in realistic places, even if they are strict, and you are honest about why the rules are what they are, it seems to me the kids are more likely to end up more responsible. And of course the lines you draw would change as the child demonstrates responsibility and earns the trust.
If you thought I was implying that attending rock concerts or dances or having girlfriends/boyfriends should not be allowed, then I didn't do a good job in explaining my views. I was trying to limit my thoughts to violence.
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Post by kds on Nov 4, 2020 15:17:44 GMT
I've always hated the narrative of movies, video games, or whatever having an effect on violence or crime. You're 100% right, it's all about upbringing. When I was very young, my parents ingrained in my brain that the stuff I saw on television was not real. I think that's why some of the more creepy things I watched around Halloween time didn't scare me that much. I think studies are showing that movies, TV shows video games, music (especially lyrics), social media and other things are proven to be influences on violent criminals. Copycat crime is rampant. People (kids?) are seeing/hearing violence somewhere, much, much more than the past (how far do you want to go back?) If that's true (and I don't know how much faith I put in these studies), I think that speaks more of the upbringing of these criminals than the media that they were exposed to.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 4, 2020 15:21:00 GMT
I think studies are showing that movies, TV shows video games, music (especially lyrics), social media and other things are proven to be influences on violent criminals. Copycat crime is rampant. People (kids?) are seeing/hearing violence somewhere, much, much more than the past (how far do you want to go back?) I don't think that's accurate re studies. There have been plenty of them over the past few decades, and my understanding is that they're rarely if ever conclusive that those things affect people.
EDIT (yes, I am editing before I post) - I could be wrong about the above. Especially re video games specifically, it seems there have been some conclusive studies. I don't know yet about music lyrics, but will check. Social media, to be clear, I consider a cesspool and have no doubt it has negative impacts on adolescents, though I don't know how much of that is violence. I think more is self-harm and mental health issues, per Jonathan Haidt's and Greg Lukianoff's BRILLIANT book "Coddling of the American Mind." But its conclusion is actually about making kids "antifragile" by responsible, gradual exposure.
It's also notable that crime rates--especially violent crime rates-- have fallen dramatically since their early 90s peak. The 70s, 80s, and into the early 90s were the worst; things are substantially better now, generally in the ballpark of 1/3 to 1/2 the peak rates. The "the world is going to hell" messaging is because our media cashes in on dramatic and inflammatory rhetoric; not because of a change in reality.
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