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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 27, 2020 23:04:15 GMT
I never would have predicted this eight years ago, but that damn Spring Vacation is really grown on me. Me, too ... but only to a degree. I still hate what I hated about it. But I think I have found more good in it than I used to. (Oddly, some of the terrible lyrics are something I like more now, almost for their terribleness.) I could still do without it sounding in a spot so much like the Peter Hollens NPP song though.
EDIT: I still think those of you who think it is great or among the best are batshit crazy!
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Post by B.E. on Mar 27, 2020 23:10:51 GMT
First, I just want to say that I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion over the past few pages! A few responses...
SJS, your picks of Concert and "Mama Says" in the least favorite categories were hard to compute! And, TCK's pick of Smiley Smile as a least favorite album. Don't get me wrong, I understand those picks not being favorites, but among each of your two least favorite? That said, my main motivation for mentioning these picks is to share my surprise that just about every other pick made sense to me. I was expecting the discussion to be much more painful in that regard!
I'd like to side with bellbottoms on "Winds Of Change" and "When Girls Get Together". I understand what others don't like about it (I think), but especially with "When Girls Get Together" it's the degree of animosity that surprises me. To me, it seems just about on par with the other fringe Sunflower-era songs that many fans find it in their hearts to praise. KDS's complaint about the vocals really surprises me. Mike's voice had fallen drastically from "When Girls Get Together" to KTSA, IMO.
"Cuddle Up" and "My Diane" voted overrated? I can understand that, but reading it in two consecutive posts hurt!
Speaking of Dennis, he certainly is polarizing. I guess it's not too surprising then that he's been mentioned quite a bit in the least favorite and most overrated song categories.
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Post by B.E. on Mar 27, 2020 23:42:19 GMT
I think generally speaking, the pre-1966 albums aren't discussed as much, ranked as highly, and it some cases, taken as seriously as the post-1965 albums, and for good reasons. In a lot of cases it's warranted. We've discussed this subject on other threads, but those 1962-65 albums are short, contain several instrumentals, contain filler, and, especially among Beach Boys' fans, are viewed with "what if" feelings based on some of the tracks that were left off. A couple of hit singles can only go so far in "making" good albums. I totally agree with this, which is why I don't necessarily agree with KDS's last post. But I do think that ASL is a really, really good album, maybe their first great one. Imperfect but damn good. In the spirit of debate, I'm siding with KDS. The early albums get unfairly nitpicked. I think they get marginalized for reasons other than those listed above, and (arguably) even many of the above are subjective themselves. I don't consider those albums too short. I doubt they were considered short in their day either. Instrumentals? Hasn't hurt Pet Sounds any. Filler? Unless we're talking about the few talk tracks, the "album tracks" of that period are at least as good as the "albums tracks" of later albums. Also, is it really fair to hold Brian's prolificness against the early albums? The group would continue to puzzle the fanbase with track selection for decades to come.
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Post by B.E. on Mar 27, 2020 23:48:13 GMT
On a similar note, I found it very interesting (and vindicating!) that every pick for most overrated album was from '67-'77. Maybe that's because that era is overrated (among the message board crowd) and thus whichever album of that era happens to be our least favorite feels that much more overrated. Am I making sense?
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Post by Kapitan on Mar 27, 2020 23:54:07 GMT
On a similar note, I found it very interesting (and vindicating!) that every pick for most overrated album was from '67-'77. Maybe that's because that era is overrated (among the message board crowd) and thus whichever album of that era happens to be our least favorite feels that much more overrated. Am I making sense? I think that's the perfect encapsulation of our little subculture and its relationship to reality.
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Post by Kapitan on Mar 27, 2020 23:59:07 GMT
I doubt they were considered short in their day either. This is a big one for me, well beyond album length. Just generally, it is important to remember that context matters. Anyone over, say, 30, will tell you that "X from [year]" matters and makes sense if you were there in [year]. As time goes on, those sorts of contextual things lose their relevance for most people. Some things seem to last, some don't, and it's not always (often?) obvious at the time which will be which.
I think we're all justified in saying "I don't like [whatever] because X" regardless of what Joe Public thought about X at the time and place, in that context. But that said, we should all also be well aware that our own personal, modern opinion is still just an opinion, and considering our own lack of context, to some degree an uninformed opinion.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 28, 2020 0:02:03 GMT
I totally agree with this, which is why I don't necessarily agree with KDS's last post. But I do think that ASL is a really, really good album, maybe their first great one. Imperfect but damn good. In the spirit of debate, I'm siding with KDS. The early albums get unfairly nitpicked. I think they get marginalized for reasons other than those listed above, and (arguably) even many of the above are subjective themselves. I don't consider those albums too short. I doubt they were considered short in their day either. Instrumentals? Hasn't hurt Pet Sounds any. Filler? Unless we're talking about the few talk tracks, the "album tracks" of that period are at least as good as the "albums tracks" of later albums. Also, is it really fair to hold Brian's prolificness against the early albums? The group would continue to puzzle the fanbase with track selection for decades to come. Point(s) taken, B.E. But consider this. Each one of those flaws (if you believe they are flaws) - short albums, not great (?) instrumentals, and undoubtedly filler with stupid skits/comedy tracks - taken on its own would not affect the album's quality substantially. But when you COMBINE them, and a lot of those early albums had a combination of these things, I think it does hurt the affect the albums' reputation and legacy.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 28, 2020 0:08:21 GMT
I doubt they were considered short in their day either. This is a big one for me, well beyond album length. Just generally, it is important to remember that context matters. Anyone over, say, 30, will tell you that "X from [year]" matters and makes sense if you were there in [year]. As time goes on, those sorts of contextual things lose their relevance for most people. Some things seem to last, some don't, and it's not always (often?) obvious at the time which will be which.
I think we're all justified in saying "I don't like [whatever] because X" regardless of what Joe Public thought about X at the time and place, in that context. But that said, we should all also be well aware that our own personal, modern opinion is still just an opinion, and considering our own lack of context, to some degree an uninformed opinion.
I really don't know if they were considered short back in the day. Probably not, or they probably weren't criticized for being short. But I wonder if when you're ranking them or rating them - and when you compare the length with the other artists you're comparing with (i.e. The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Dylan, and especially the mid/late 60's groups) if the Beach Boys don't usually come up short or even noticeably short (and I'm not stopping at 1966 - look at Smiley Smile, Friends, Wild Honey, too).
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Post by B.E. on Mar 28, 2020 0:17:37 GMT
Point(s) taken, B.E. But consider this. Each one of those flaws (if you believe they are flaws) - short albums, not great (?) instrumentals, and undoubtedly filler with stupid skits/comedy tracks - taken on its own would not affect the album's quality substantially. But when you COMBINE them, and a lot of those early albums had a combination of these things, I think it does hurt the affect the albums' reputation and legacy.
Agreed, mostly. I suppose that (partially) explains the success of All Summer Long in this discussion as an underrated album. And, let me introduce to you one of my picks for most underrated... Little Deuce Coupe! And, that's the thing. I think for whatever reason the early albums often get lumped together (and consequently dismissed) to a greater extent than any other era. They don't all have the same flaws (and I know you aren't saying that). Then there's albums like Surfer Girl, which KDS mentioned. Perhaps if it were a later album (say, late '70s when expectations were far lower), the fact that half the album is stone cold classic would carry more weight when it came time to ranking albums. Instead, the glass is half empty.
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Post by B.E. on Mar 28, 2020 0:21:02 GMT
I really don't know if they were considered short back in the day. Probably not, or they probably weren't criticized for being short. But I wonder if when you're ranking them or rating them - and when you compare the length with the other artists you're comparing with (i.e. The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Dylan, and especially the mid/late 60's groups) if the Beach Boys don't usually come up short or even noticeably short (and I'm not stopping at 1966 - look at Smiley Smile, Friends, Wild Honey, too). I think that argument is much stronger in '67 and '68. But, personally, I'll take 12 shorter songs over 8-9 longer ones (as I've said numerous times, sorry).
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Mar 28, 2020 0:22:27 GMT
SJS, your picks of Concert and "Mama Says" in the least favorite categories were hard to compute! When I was thinking of my least favorite favorite album (at this particular time, and that's important), I tried to choose the one that is my least listened to Beach Boys' album, and surprisingly that would be Beach Boys Concert. I'm not crazy about the tracklist. I think most of the the covers are weak, and that's a big part of the album. The only exceptions would be "The Little Old Lady From Pasadena" and "Graduation Day"; those are good. As far as "the hits", they all sound rushed to me, and don't really offer anything more from the studio versions. But the main reason I rarely listen to Concert is because of the screaming fans. Whoever came up with idea to "turn up" the screaming was dead wrong, simple as that. For me, it totally detracts from the music. It's annoying actually, and it directly keeps me from enjoying the album.
The funny thing is, I'm a big fan of live albums, by any artist. I like when groups change things up and give me something different. This one's a misfire IMO, and I can't believe it charted so high. The group must've really had the momentum going, even with all those short albums!
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Post by B.E. on Mar 28, 2020 0:28:31 GMT
This one's a misfire IMO, and I can't believe it charted so high. The group must've really had the momentum going, even with all those short albums! It was the album cover!
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Post by kds on Mar 28, 2020 0:34:00 GMT
I never would have predicted this eight years ago, but that damn Spring Vacation is really grown on me. Me, too ... but only to a degree. I still hate what I hated about it. But I think I have found more good in it than I used to. (Oddly, some of the terrible lyrics are something I like more now, almost for their terribleness.) I could still do without it sounding in a spot so much like the Peter Hollens NPP song though.
EDIT: I still think those of you who think it is great or among the best are batshit crazy! Not great, but I can enjoy on it the same level as much of their late 80s / early 90s stuff. I think it was that John Mayer esque intro I was really struggling with for a long time.
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Post by kds on Mar 28, 2020 0:40:53 GMT
I totally agree with this, which is why I don't necessarily agree with KDS's last post. But I do think that ASL is a really, really good album, maybe their first great one. Imperfect but damn good. In the spirit of debate, I'm siding with KDS. The early albums get unfairly nitpicked. I think they get marginalized for reasons other than those listed above, and (arguably) even many of the above are subjective themselves. I don't consider those albums too short. I doubt they were considered short in their day either. Instrumentals? Hasn't hurt Pet Sounds any. Filler? Unless we're talking about the few talk tracks, the "album tracks" of that period are at least as good as the "albums tracks" of later albums. Also, is it really fair to hold Brian's prolificness against the early albums? The group would continue to puzzle the fanbase with track selection for decades to come. Thank you. I like Wild Honey, Friends, and Sunflower, but there are not many songs on those albums as good as Surfer Girl, In My Room, Don't Worry Baby, Warmth of the Sun, I Get Around, All Summer Long, etc etc. I think you hit the nail on the head about 1967-77 too. I love a lot of those albums. But, its amazing that, at least among BB web peoples, the 1962-66 period can be considered underrated. Maybe I spent too much time on the wrong forums too.
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Post by B.E. on Mar 28, 2020 0:46:41 GMT
Maybe I spent too much time on the wrong forums too. Which is odd, you'd think Brianistas would be all over it. Edit: Am I the only one who hears the incredible joy with which Brian sings on Beach Boys' Party? (Ah! Looky there, my other choice for most underrated.)
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