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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2019 18:24:28 GMT
Ace Frehley wasn't better at guitar than Vinnie Vincent. Or Mark St. John. Or probably Bruce Kulick or Tommy Thayer. What he was, was the initial, influential guitarist of the classic lineup, and is thus praised by many.
At the wise suggestion of KDS, this thread is for discussions of classic lineups, favorite lineups, original lineups, unfair criticism to replacements, unrealistic credit for originals, etc.
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Post by kds on Sept 3, 2019 19:25:18 GMT
Black Sabbath - The classic lineup of Black Sabbath includes Ozzy Osbourne on vocals. However, in terms of talent, Ozzy is probably the weakest singer they had when you consider that Ronnie James Dio, Ian Gillan, Glenn Hughes, and even Tony Martin all fronted Sabbath, and were all better singers than Ozzy.
Van Halen - Speaking of singers. I understand how people can say that David Lee Roth was the best fit / frontman for that band, but I don't even think it's debatable that Sammy Hagar is far and away the better singer.
Deep Purple - No question the Mk II lineup of Ian Gillan, Ritchie Blackmore, Roger Glover, Jon Lord, and Ian Paice is the classic, and most well known lineup. However, once Ian Gillan and Roger Glover were replaced by David Coverdale and Glenn Hughes, the band released the classic Burn album. And, I'm a huge Ritchie Blackmore disciple, but the lone album Purple did with Tommy Bolin on guitar - Come Taste the Band - is amazing.
Scorpions - Scorpions were not very well known in the States until they hit big in the early 80s. This was after the departure of Uli Jon Roth, who was the best guitarist the band ever band.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 3, 2019 20:07:31 GMT
Blue Oyster Cult: Al Bouchard (drums/vocals), Joe Bouchard (bass/vocals), Buck Dharma (lead guitar/vocals), Allen Lanier (keyboards/guitar/vocals), Eric Bloom (lead vocals/guitar).
The above classic lineup lasted until 1981 when Al Bouchard left the band, followed by brother Joe around 1986. Allen Lanier passed away in 2013. Researching the dates when the members left/passed away made me realize that there are just two remaining original members left. I never thought of BOC in "those" terms, meaning one of those bands with just a member or two left from the original lineup.
That classic lineup really had it going for about ten years (1972-1983). I wouldn't consider them as groundbreaking in hard rock/heavy metal as a Black Sabbath, but during their heyday there weren't many bands who rocked harder than BOC. Sometimes the group would perform songs employing five guitars! BOC were excellent musicians and a tight band live. Their early/mid-career live shows were noteworthy for using a laser light show. I saw them in 1978 at The Spectrum in Philadelphia and it was quite impressive. My hearing still hasn't fully recovered.
BOC employed their manager, Sandy Pearlman as an occasional lyricist. I must confess that I couldn't decipher or didn't understand many of BOC's lyric's, but they sounded cool. And Eric Bloom as a lead singer/front man (if he could be considered one) was cool. A lot of black leather, shades, facial hair, and fancy guitars to go around. Finally, the real ace, the true superstar of the group was/is Don "Buck Dharma" Roeser. I encourage anyone to sample BOC's first five studio albums and a couple of their live ones. I think you'll agree that there weren't many rock guitarists better than Buck Dharma. Vastly underrated.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2019 20:31:57 GMT
A couple that jump out at me are from a few groups I am in the minority being a fan of, but they do stand out.
Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention. This group was almost entirely unremarkable in terms of its talent, Zappa notwithstanding. The band members were literally bar band musicians around southern California when Frank began playing with them in the early to mid 60s. He took over their band, for obvious reasons, and took them from anonymity to notoriety. As the 60s went on, though, he began supplementing and later replacing the likes of Ray Collins, Jimmy Carl Black, and Roy Estrada with Ian Underwood, George Duke, and Aynsley Dunbar, among others. You get into the 70s and have Duke and Underwood with Ruth Underwood, Don Preston, Napoleon Murphy Brock, etc. In short, he went from bar band players to sophisticated and schooled players. As the years went on, that only became more the case. Yet FZ even said in his autobiography that he was always asked why he fired or replaced the originals. Why? Because they couldn't play his music!
The Velvet Underground released its first two albums with Lou Reed, John Cale, Sterling Morrison, and Maureen Tucker. Reed fired Cale and replaced him with Doug Yule for the band's final two canonical studio albums. Many people insist that Cale formed the "real" band, usually hyping his "experimental" side. Well, look, if you're into viola or organ drones, then OK, have at it. Yule played bass and keyboard instruments in a fairly standard way, and he could sing. I'm not saying Cale--a classically trained musician--isn't a great musician. But those first two VU albums are inferior to the latter two.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 3, 2019 20:39:30 GMT
But those first two VU albums are inferior to the latter two. I'm not very familiar with the latter two (just isolated tracks), but The Velvet Underground And Nico isn't their best album?
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2019 20:47:37 GMT
In my opinion, no. It has more of their best known songs than any other, that's true: Sunday Morning, I'm Waiting For The Man, Heroin, Femme Fatale. But I think the actual recordings themselves aren't especially good, for the most part, and the (here's that goddamn word again) "experimental" songs are just trash.
The third album might not have as many classics, but it has a handful of really good songs, some real beauties! Pale Blue Eyes, Jesus, I'm Beginning to See the Light, Candy Says, and others are great. And then the fourth, Loaded, is probably my pick for their best. It's (as Reed once called it) an album full of hits ... even if they weren't hits. But Sweet Jane, Rock n Roll, Cool it Down, Lonesome Cowboy Bill, Who Loves the Sun, New Age, Head Held High: it hits a lot of musical bases. I love it.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 3, 2019 20:52:18 GMT
Lou Reed wasn't the easiest interviewee and I haven't read many interviews with him. You mentioned Lou's "opinion" on Loaded. Did Lou ever mention what he thought was the best VU album, or his personal favorite?
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2019 20:57:58 GMT
Not that I can recall. Usually he was pretty prickly talking about anything, and especially his own past. He tended to discuss his current album ... if you could get him to talk at all.
His comments on Loaded, then, also need to be taken in context. Basically he had written those songs, recorded that album, and quit the band. So when it bombed, he snarkily said something like "they wanted hits, so I gave them an album full of hits" [implying they ruined their chance].
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 3, 2019 23:03:40 GMT
What about the Beach Boys? Do you guys have a "classic lineup" you strongly prefer?
Early on we've got B. Wilson, C. Wilson, D. Wilson, M. Love, D. Marks, and A. Jardine (with the lattermost in and out).
Then we've got B. Wilson, C. Wilson, D. Wilson, M. Love, and A. Jardine.
Then B. Wilson, C. Wilson, D. Wilson, M. Love, A. Jardine , and B. Johnston.
Then B. Wilson, C. Wilson, D. Wilson, M. Love, A. Jardine, B. Chaplin, and R. Fataar.
Then B. Wilson, C. Wilson, D. Wilson, M. Love, A. Jardine, and R. Fataar.
Then B. Wilson, C. Wilson, D. Wilson, M. Love, A. Jardine (again)
Then B. Wilson, C. Wilson, D. Wilson, M. Love, A. Jardine, and B. Johnston (again).
Then B. Wilson, C. Wilson, M. Love, A. Jardine, and B. Johnston.
Then B. Wilson, M. Love, A. Jardine, and B. Johnston.
And now B. Wilson, M. Love, A. Jardine, B. Johnston, and D. Marks.
Is that all the official lineups, discounting the more-or-less in the group guys over the years like B Hinsche, D Dragon, etc?
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 3, 2019 23:11:12 GMT
I think the 1965-66 lineup of B. Wilson, D. Wilson, C. Wilson, M. Love, A. Jardine, B. Johnston is the best and probably my favorite.
However, the 1976-78 lineup of B. Wilson, D. Wilson, C. Wilson, M. Love, A. Jardine just before Bruce came back is the most fascinating. You could write a book or make a documentary on just that period alone.
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Post by kds on Sept 4, 2019 12:10:05 GMT
How about good old reliable Queen. Same lineup for the full life of the band (and yes, I consider the 21st century Queen + band a different entity).
Freddie Mercury Brian May Roger Taylor John Deacon
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Sept 4, 2019 12:56:27 GMT
So much has been written and discussed about Syd Barrett's tenure with Pink Floyd - and much of it deservedly so - that it's hard to believe this classic lineup lasted for only one album, then shortly, very shortly became...
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Post by kds on Sept 4, 2019 13:05:55 GMT
While I respect Syd Barrett, I don't think Pink Floyd would be a legendary band had he remained in the band. For my money, David Gilmour was an upgrade in every way. Better guitarist. Better singer. Better composer of melody. He might've lacked as a lyricist, but Roger Waters stepped up in that category.
For me, the classic Pink Floyd is Roger Waters, David Gilmour, Richard Wright, and Nick Mason which lasted from 1968-1981, 2005.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 4, 2019 13:23:29 GMT
Totally agree with KDS: in fact I’ll say that I think Syd Barrett is among the most overhyped rock stars in history, and I think had he stuck around Pink Floyd, the band wouldn’t have achieved what it did AND his reputation would have never become what it did.
Nothing is quite so good for an artist’s reputation as tragedy. So fuckin’ romantic, generations of teens and young adults fall for it.
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Post by Kapitan on Sept 4, 2019 13:29:04 GMT
How about good old reliable Queen. Same lineup for the full life of the band (and yes, I consider the 21st century Queen + band a different entity). Freddie Mercury Brian May Roger Taylor John Deacon I think you’re asking special pleading here, to separate the non-canonical lineups into different entities. I mean, on some level it is true, they are branded as the band itself plus someone else. I’ll grant that. But the original, legal brand is still there in the newer versions, even if as a fragment (ahem, the large majority) of the whole. I’ll guess not many people thought “oh, great, a new album by this new band that has Queen members in it!” for the Paul Rodgers version. And virtually nobody says “great, a show with Adam Lambert alongside part of Queen!” It’s Queen’s logo, Queen’s songs, Queen’s name (with an arithmetic symbol).
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