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Post by Kapitan on Nov 17, 2021 20:58:02 GMT
As the jury is deliberating in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial in Kenosha. I have to say, I have not been following it closely at all: I just am familiar with the story from when it occurred, and some skimming of headlines and ledes during the trial.
Personally I don't have a strong opinion as to his legal guilt (or non-guilt). I haven't looked closely at the charges, and I don't know the law. My feelings are the gut-level ones I've had all along, which is that it wasn't smart of him to put himself in that situation, and that it was inexcusable for the rioters to riot. On its face--not saying that the actual situation is this, but I'm saying if this were the situation--I think it is more valid to say you want to protect a business or home or something from rioters than it is to riot. I have no sympathy for rioters. (Protesters, sure. But if you're in and among rioters, or condoning, or participating in rioting, nope.)
But none of them should have been there, quite frankly.
Anyway, my feeling is one of dread that if the verdict isn't deemed sufficient, there will be more rioting. I hope I'm wrong about that; and if I'm right, I hope the responses to it are far stronger and swifter than in summer 2020.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Nov 17, 2021 21:08:05 GMT
It's interesting that you put this topic in the Politics Thread. But, you're right, it is political.
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Post by B.E. on Nov 18, 2021 0:00:52 GMT
Co-workers are starting to talk about it, and I keep seeing the name 'Kyle Rittenhouse' in headlines. Other than that, and I presume he shot and killed someone (and that the jury is deliberating), I have no idea what's going on. I should probably read something and get informed...
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Post by B.E. on Nov 18, 2021 0:35:59 GMT
There's some local news that's currently on my mind. Hazing of the most heinous nature has rocked a school district nearby - involving the football team. There was a board meeting last night where hundreds of people showed up and many spoke publicly. Most calling out the district but others defending the football team and, essentially, protesting the cancellation of the Thanksgiving football game. The thing is, for the most part, I think hazing is accepted. As long as you, or your kid, isn't the victim, anyway. Personally, I was able to navigate around it and avoid it, but I was also lucky enough to be one of the better players on the teams I played on, so I was pretty much in the clear. Also, I went to a relatively small school so the hazing was pretty mild. In this current situation, it's entirely and completely as far over the line as you can get (short of literally murdering someone). Anyway, a co-worker had a recording of the meeting on at work today and it was pretty crazy. But, again, while this is extreme, hazing and bullying is nothing new and people more or less accept it as a "rite of passage". I think if you give kids (or adults, for that matter) too much leeway, anything can happen. And, truthfully, what good comes from hazing? Why allow it to continue? What place does it really have in sports or life? I hope the kids involved get charged, (some or all) the coaches/athletic director get fired, and the district cracks down on hazing and bullying.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 18, 2021 0:45:20 GMT
There is a high school in northern Minnesota that stopped its season a few weeks ago and their coach, whom to be clear is not under investigation, resigned. There has yet to be an announcement about it, but there are rumors that some of their HS football team players raped another with a broomstick in a "hazing" episode. Again, that is a rumor. But it has really wrecked that town, based on coverage.
Yet it's insane how people react. A town near where I grew up had an incident several years back in which some players did (and filmed) some lewd things with drunken teammates. The biggest reaction according to my parents (in the next town over, and my dad had strong connections there yet, having been a cop and also in that school for a while) was parents' anger that the consequences ruined their team's chance at a state title.
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Post by B.E. on Nov 18, 2021 0:57:53 GMT
There is a high school in northern Minnesota that stopped its season a few weeks ago and their coach, whom to be clear is not under investigation, resigned. There has yet to be an announcement about it, but there are rumors that some of their HS football team players raped another with a broomstick in a "hazing" episode. Again, that is a rumor. But it has really wrecked that town, based on coverage.
Yet it's insane how people react. A town near where I grew up had an incident several years back in which some players did (and filmed) some lewd things with drunken teammates. The biggest reaction according to my parents (in the next town over, and my dad had strong connections there yet, having been a cop and also in that school for a while) was parents' anger that the consequences ruined their team's chance at a state title.
Wow, same thing allegedly happened here. And it may have been filmed. But, as you'd suspect, if it escalates to that, just think of all the other things that must have happened. It's culture. It's part of our culture. And it serves no good purpose. There have already been some resignations and people under investigation. I don't know all the details. I heard a few of the volunteer coaches were cops. Nice. A few speakers at the meeting spoke of abuses that occurred to them or family members in years past. Maybe this incident sparks change.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 18, 2021 1:11:11 GMT
Those things have just lasted so long. I have a friend from an even smaller town than mine. (Our schools consolidated in 10th grade, but while mine was maybe 100 kids per class, his--which was already a few small towns consolidated--was maybe 25-30.) He tells the story that his freshman year of football (circa 1990), he came home with the unique bruises of having been whipped by rubber hoses. His dad, who had graduated from that school a few decades prior, apparently was practically laughing when he asked, "they're still doing that, eh?" Not bothered in the slightest, and seemingly amused and nostalgic.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 19, 2021 21:40:01 GMT
Well, the verdict is in: not guilty on all counts. I hope that's the right decision, and I hope there's no rioting, and I hope this doesn't just encourage lunatics out there to decide to be vigilante cops every time they think they need to "protect" themselves or others.
(I'm not saying whether the defendant was in that situation, but it's easy to see how the sorts of people who think they're doing society a favor by taking their guns with them everywhere in public and having the mindset, if not the training or skills, to successfully intervene, might consider this tacit permission.)
I have to comment on the number of absurd things I've seen online, including from verified (eg blue-checkmarked on twitter) journalists saying things like "I guess this proves a white man can shoot three black men and get away with it." The ignorance is astounding. Rittenhouse shot three white men, killing two. Yes, they were white men rioting and protesting in reference to the police shooting of a black man. But they were white, not black. It's one thing to be ignorant of something: that's no crime and it's true of all of us. But it's quite another to make ignorant public statements when you're supposed to be in the information business. Remarkable. It seems to me almost everyone's position in this case was decided the day it happened based on just the barest facts--white kid shot three people protesting against the police's shooting of a black man--without knowing the specific details, or caring to know them. Everyone's positions were outlined clearly for them by their trusted media, and that was that. (And their trusted media have been tremendously misleading. "Both" sides.) That is really disappointing.
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Post by Kapitan on Nov 19, 2021 22:18:58 GMT
This column does a pretty good job of outlining the aspects of this whole thing that are so frustrating to me.
And by the way, that outlet--Persuasion--is only about a year and a half old. I believe it was founded spring 2020, if I am not mistaken. It is a really good outlet, in my opinion, generally featuring centrist contributors, and to be more precise, I'd say largely featuring people who until a few years ago would have been considered center-left, but not entirely: some are certainly more historically center-right. Regardless, they seem to more often than not be people who feel abandoned by modern political shifts: the left-leaners tend not to like the "wokism" (that term now is used derisively so nobody likes it ... but I don't know what to call it) that the left wing of the Democratic party so fully embraces; and the right-leaners tend to dislike the confrontational, bullying, and person-centered Trumpian nature the Republican party has taken on. So you can understand why I enjoy it.
From their "About" page: Persuasion is a publication and community for everyone who shares three basic convictions:
- We seek to build a free society in which all individuals get to pursue a meaningful life irrespective of who they are.
- We believe in the importance of the social practice of persuasion, and are determined to defend free speech and free inquiry against all its enemies.
- We seek to persuade, rather than to mock or troll, those who disagree with us.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 2, 2021 20:15:55 GMT
With abortion in the news again due to the Supreme Court hearing the Mississippi case, I saw the journalist who wrote this article sharing it again. I had actually read it a while back--I don't recall why, as it dates from 2019 and I definitely didn't read it then--and found it very good.
Is it pro or anti abortion? Both and neither, I guess. Which is part of what I like about it. That and it's serious, not sloganeering PR, like 90% of what you hear or read on the topic.
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Post by kds on Dec 3, 2021 13:39:19 GMT
Random gripe.
I generally consider myself a conservative, but I feel like my views are a little closer to the center.
I'll say this, I did not vote for President Biden last November, and I'm generally not a big fan of his. But, for the love of everything that is holy, I wish that "Let's Go Brandon" never became a thing.
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 3, 2021 13:43:06 GMT
Random gripe. I generally consider myself a conservative, but I feel like my views are a little closer to the center. I'll say this, I did not vote for President Biden last November, and I'm generally not a big fan of his. But, for the love of everything that is holy, I wish that "Let's Go Brandon" never became a thing. For me, as soon as political conversation becomes indistinguishable from sports fandom, it's best to just avoid everyone involved. Chanting, slogans, talking trash about the other side, mockery...it's fun, which is why people do it. But it also has such a negative impact on our society in general. Instead of honestly discussing and debating issues and how to solve them, it becomes finding ways to insult each other just for being on the other team, or finding ways to be noticed for being a superfan.
"Let's Go Brandon" is a perfect example. So stupid.
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Post by kds on Dec 3, 2021 13:45:50 GMT
Random gripe. I generally consider myself a conservative, but I feel like my views are a little closer to the center. I'll say this, I did not vote for President Biden last November, and I'm generally not a big fan of his. But, for the love of everything that is holy, I wish that "Let's Go Brandon" never became a thing. For me, as soon as political conversation becomes indistinguishable from sports fandom, it's best to just avoid everyone involved. Chanting, slogans, talking trash about the other side, mockery...it's fun, which is why people do it. But it also has such a negative impact on our society in general. Instead of honestly discussing and debating issues and how to solve them, it becomes finding ways to insult each other just for being on the other team, or finding ways to be noticed for being a superfan.
"Let's Go Brandon" is a perfect example. So stupid.
Couldn't agree more. Plus, at the end of the day, I really don't understand how people get so attached to a political or a candidate. To me, that's the equivalent of thinking a stripper is "into you."
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Post by Kapitan on Dec 17, 2021 15:37:41 GMT
I read an article in Vox this morning--which I often find just fine, honestly, a legit left-leaning (but not generally extreme) outlet--and got a little riled up. To be fair, it's largely the awful headline, and headlines are generally written by copy editors, not the actual authors or higher-up editors. But my gosh...
Headline: "The world as we know it is ending. Why are we still at work?"
Pandemic, political upheaval, and climate change: should we just quit working to deal with such things? The gist of the article is a bit more nuanced, not fully saying we should just stop working. But it does seem overly dramatic to me, especially since it seems to imply that civilization would just continue if we stopped (or slowed) our work. As if "they"--and there is no concept I hate in this world more than that vague "they" people love to depend on.
The world isn't ending; and the world as we know it is ALWAYS ending, or at least it has been for a few hundred years, as change in society has been faster than it had ever been before.
Why do we keep working through pandemic, political crises, and (lol) climate change? Because despite the fact that huge numbers of people have jobs that seem irrelevant, at the core of it all is the reality that life requires work. Food doesn't freely jump into your mouth; buildings don't just appear out of the ether to provide shelter; the modern miracle that is healthcare doesn't self-generate; to say nothing of all those little miracles that people increasingly consider necessary utilities/infrastructure like universal broadband internet and the tools to access it all. All of that requires work, none of it is free. What the hell kind of stupid question is "why are we working even though times are tough?", at least if it isn't immediately answered with something like the above.
I'm the first to agree with the general sentiment that American hyperproductivity is not necessary for everyone. I opted out of that nonsense by the mid-00s, myself: I stopped chasing any kinds of promotions, career advancement, and realized I was more than fine with what I had, preferring a good balance to my life. (And I was, and am, fortunate to be in that position.) So I get that. If you're in a position to drop out and that's what you want to do, cool! If you want to cut back and can do so, cool! But nobody owes anybody anything, generally speaking. So if you don't have the means, guess what? You've got to work!
And who is going to solve these crises that apparently mean we can quit working? "Solution" is another name for "results of work"!
In WWII, did people just stop going into the office, or out into the fields, or into the factories? In the Civil War, did they decide that since the country literally was being torn apart, they deserved a few years off? In the Great Depression, did they say "times are bad, I'm stressed out, let's just hang out at home until somebody solves this?" Or during the Spanish Flu pandemic? Civil rights struggle in the '60s? Watergate? Cuban missile crisis? Obviously not. Work is required for civilization.
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Post by kds on Dec 17, 2021 15:58:40 GMT
Also, we keep working because, despite the constant fear mongering by the media at large, none of these things is as bad as it appears.
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