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Post by Kapitan on May 10, 2022 16:39:32 GMT
You won't catch me saying this very often, but I have some sympathy for the HoF on that kind of question. These decades-long running bands that have had numerous personnel changes make for a tough decision.
For those kinds of bands, a person could make good arguments for the original members; the members of the band when it broke; the members of the band's most successful period; the members of the band, period, all time; the members of the band during its active recording period; and so on. But what do you do with hired sidemen who aren't technically full members? Does that count against them? (If so, you're using the hierarchical structure of a business to decide membership in RnR HoF, which is kind of funny.)
A guy like Eric Singer has been in KISS for 30 years now, barring the brief reunion of the original lineup. That's something like 5x longer than Peter Criss was in the band, and nearly 3x as long as Eric Carr was in the band. Yet they've released what, three original albums in that time? Should that count against him?
Or think of a band like Whitesnake (and yes, I'm keeping the examples in the hard rock/metal vein in the spirit of the thread). They've changed members pretty consistently every few albums as long as they've existed. If they were to make the HoF, you could argue that either only David Coverdale gets in, or everybody gets in!
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Post by kds on May 10, 2022 16:59:46 GMT
It doesn't get an as much attention, but the question of who goes in for each band is more complicated than the bands actually inducted.
And, that very thing you mention about Whitesnake will probably keep them from being inducted. They only time they really had a somewhat consistent lineup was the early 80s, and that's not the period that would even get them on the ballot.
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Post by Kapitan on May 10, 2022 17:06:41 GMT
This is straying off the main point a little, but I think it's interesting how people generally like to think of bands in a very naive way, like the TV-show Monkees: a group of friends who get together to form a band, maybe even living together!, and who stick to it as they grow up and go through life changes, though thick and thin, etc.
The reality, as any serious fan of any long-running band knows, is far from that. Some original member gets the shaft in order to make the band more palatable to the record label ("that drummer has got to go, he can't keep time" or "you need a better-looking guy on lead vocals"); the band was formally established as a business by one or two people with the rest as employees; and of course the more typical changes over time when the guitarist goes solo or whatever.
But that distance between imagination and reality does set in on things like the RnR HoF. When they're inducting a band, people want four cuddly jokesters from Liverpool to bumble and stumble onto the stage and say something clever, maybe even meaningful, in a speech, about how this was how they'd always all dreamed it back when they were teenagers. While in reality there are probably 20 different people who could have been on that stage to represent that business entity, er, band.
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Post by kds on May 10, 2022 17:12:20 GMT
This is straying off the main point a little, but I think it's interesting how people generally like to think of bands in a very naive way, like the TV-show Monkees: a group of friends who get together to form a band, maybe even living together!, and who stick to it as they grow up and go through life changes, though thick and thin, etc.
The reality, as any serious fan of any long-running band knows, is far from that. Some original member gets the shaft in order to make the band more palatable to the record label ("that drummer has got to go, he can't keep time" or "you need a better-looking guy on lead vocals"); the band was formally established as a business by one or two people with the rest as employees; and of course the more typical changes over time when the guitarist goes solo or whatever.
But that distance between imagination and reality does set in on things like the RnR HoF. When they're inducting a band, people want four cuddly jokesters from Liverpool to bumble and stumble onto the stage and say something clever, maybe even meaningful, in a speech, about how this was how they'd always all dreamed it back when they were teenagers. While in reality there are probably 20 different people who could have been on that stage to represent that business entity, er, band.
What's funny is when you have the current incarnation of the band perform, often with bandmembers who were not on stage for the induction. Part of me thinks, fuck it, list all the musicians who've been official members of the band.
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Post by Kapitan on May 10, 2022 17:16:45 GMT
But even that, what is an "official" member? Sounds easy enough, but it goes back into the question of the organization of the business entity versus how a band is promoted. If you look at Lick It Up, KISS's members were Gene Simmons, Paul Stanley, Vinnie Vincent, and Eric Carr. But Carr was an employee under contract, not a "real member," and Vincent actually wasn't even that, in that he dragged his feet on signing the paperwork!
So does "real member" mean everybody who was promoted in the lineups on album covers (which are meaningless other than PR), or is it who was legally an equal owner/member? (Or for that matter, what about unequal members?)
As you said, it's actually really complicated.
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Post by kds on May 10, 2022 18:09:13 GMT
The whole thing about who is / who isn't is definitely complicated. Of course, this is why David Gilmour and Nick Mason started a minor fan controversary when they released the one off Ukraine support single as Pink Floyd.
It would be interesting to find out how the Hall determines who gets in through. In Priest, Les Binks, who drummed with them for a little bit at the end of the 70s got a nod. In Purple, original lead single Rod Evans did, but not original bassist Nick Simper. And Bruce Johnston....well, that's not really hard rock.
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Post by Kapitan on May 10, 2022 19:54:17 GMT
Does the Hall make the decision on their own? Or do they consult with the (current) management of the band, in which case you're REALLY getting into band politics! I honestly do wonder about this. I never had given it a lot of thought before, though of course I'd heard the various campaigning and complaining with some bands. But when you dig in, it does seem like a thankless task. You're guaranteed your decision will piss off somebody or other, whether within the band's own universe or among fans.
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Post by kds on May 11, 2022 12:36:44 GMT
Does the Hall make the decision on their own? Or do they consult with the (current) management of the band, in which case you're REALLY getting into band politics! I honestly do wonder about this. I never had given it a lot of thought before, though of course I'd heard the various campaigning and complaining with some bands. But when you dig in, it does seem like a thankless task. You're guaranteed your decision will piss off somebody or other, whether within the band's own universe or among fans. I don't think they consult the band or their management. I remember or Gene or Paul being annoyed that Tommy Thayer and Eric Singer were not included when they got the nod.
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Post by kds on Jun 1, 2022 15:25:10 GMT
After two summers of postponements, The Stadium Tour - Motley Crue, Def Leppard, Poison, and Joan Jett - will be kicking off in two weeks. ultimateclassicrock.com/motley-crue-def-leppard-poison-joan-jett-tour-2020/One of the interesting things about this tour is that, unlike many package tours, the primary three headliners have their line ups as intact as possible. Crue and Poison are touring with their original lineups. Def Leppard has had their current lineup for 30 years, with originals Joe Elliott, Rick Savage, and Rick Allen, along with longtime guitarists Phil Collen (who replaced Pete Willis in 1982) and Vivian Campbell (who joined in 1992 after Steve Clark passed away the previous year). On many package tours, you're lucky if you get two classic members in each band.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 1, 2022 15:34:04 GMT
That's a good point. It's also worth noting that even Vivian Campbell, who joined Def Leppard after their heyday, is still a notable guitarist of that era who had a name for himself when he joined (as opposed to a young, cheap, hired backing band kind of guy). He had already been in Dio and, briefly, Whitesnake.
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Post by kds on Jun 1, 2022 15:54:53 GMT
I do kinda wish that Def Leppard would do a full headlining tour again. The last one they did that wasn't a package tour that I remember was 2003. I saw them for the first time on that tour, and it was a great set, with more than just the usual 12 or so big songs.
Good point about Viv, he was pretty prominent when he joined the band, and he even had a stint with a later version of Thin Lizzy a few years ago while Def Lep had some down time.
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Post by kds on Jun 6, 2022 15:20:59 GMT
A few weeks ago, original Iron Maiden singer Paul Di'anno played his first show in seven years. Over those years, he's had several health issues, and is currently confined to a wheelchair.
It's one thing to see Brian Wilson and Phil Collins restricted to doing entire shows while sitting, but it's a bit of a different beast seeing a heavy metal vocalist do higher octane material from a chair.
Interestingly, the show, in Croatia, coincided with Iron Maiden starting the latest leg of their Legacy of the Beast tour, and Steve Harris and Paul Di'Anno had a brief reunion backstage.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 8, 2022 23:12:44 GMT
kds, you might like to see (despite what I know is your aversion to Eddie Trunk) this SXSW panel on heavy metal, with Sebastian Bach, Geezer Butler, and Wendy Dio (Ronnie James Dio's widow). First, I'm a little surprised an SXSW event actually highlighted metal But to the point, they kick it off talking about a doc about RJD that I would guess could be interesting, too.
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Post by kds on Jun 9, 2022 12:33:49 GMT
kds , you might like to see (despite what I know is your aversion to Eddie Trunk) this SXSW panel on heavy metal, with Sebastian Bach, Geezer Butler, and Wendy Dio (Ronnie James Dio's widow). First, I'm a little surprised an SXSW event actually highlighted metal But to the point, they kick it off talking about a doc about RJD that I would guess could be interesting, too.
I'm actually a very big fan of Eddie Trunk's. Vh1 Classic's That Metal Show was one of my favorite shows. I guess SXSW is branching out a little bit. I was actually quite surprised that the Dio doc was premiering there.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 9, 2022 12:40:51 GMT
Oh, my mistake. I know you liked that show, but for some reason I thought you didn't like him. However, now I'm thinking it's my metal-loving brother who I might be thinking of. (The criticism was that when Trunk interviews someone, it's like 90% Trunk talking about Trunk, and 10% letting the guest talk.)
That said, I did watch the panel and wasn't that thrilled. It was OK, but not anything special.
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