|
Post by kds on Aug 5, 2020 17:02:40 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Aug 5, 2020 17:18:58 GMT
I'll be honest here, I don't disagree with him: even at the time, I didn't love the name. I get that obviously Lynch is his name, and there is nothing wrong with that! (Just want to be clear here.) But then the wordplay to associate with lynch mobs, I just felt queasy about it. Imagine some scenario where your name is KuKlux (which I cannot imagine being a real name!). Are you going to name your band the KuKlux Klan because of the wordplay involved? If you're unfortunate enough to have the surname Hitler, are you likely to feature it in your band name? Unlikely.
That said, it also wasn't something that kept me up nights or caused me to boycott or anything. Rock, and especially hard rock/metal, has long used vocabulary and imagery from horrible things. (The Killers, to name an obvious one.) But usually in metal, the imagery has also been medieval or even fantasy, not (relatively) recent, charged history.
So anyway, mostly a nonevent for me. I don't begrudge him his decision either way.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Aug 5, 2020 17:58:14 GMT
I get it. Anything that might be perceived as potentially having racial overtones is a no no these days. So, I do understand why George made this decision.
That being said, I do think it's a bit of a slippery slope here, and I've said this before. Will Robert Plant stop playing Gallows Pole? Will Iron Maiden permanently retire Powerslave?
So, again, it's George's decision to make, and that's fine. I'm just not sure we're heading down a good road here.
A semi serious question, should I finally get a copy of Wicked Sensation for my collection in case the name on the label is changed, and never printed again?
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Aug 5, 2020 18:03:25 GMT
I dunno. It's an OK album, but I never thought it was anything special. Some cool parts. I liked it about the same as Back for the Attack, as far as I recall (the last studio Dokken album Lynch played on). But I can't imagine it ever being valuable or anything. I'd say do it if you enjoy the album, but not for other reasons.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Aug 5, 2020 18:07:40 GMT
It's one of those albums I always wanted to buy, but never really did for one reason or another. Heck, I prefer his work with Dokken, and all I have from them is a single CD comp.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Aug 5, 2020 18:14:15 GMT
Dokken never really did it for me, except for a short time I got into them when I was about 12, with the aforementioned Back for the Attack, which is always roughly when I heard of them and started getting their back catalogue (and the last (?) album of that era, the live one). I think a Dokken comp is more than sufficient, honestly: they were pretty uneven.
My main Dokken memory isn't even their music. It's that just before the above time, when I knew a few songs but wasn't seriously into them, I was riding on a float in a summer parade. (This shows I must have been a preteen, because I can't imagine tolerating such an embarrassment if I were old enough to feel such things!) Some kid next to me and I began talking about music. I said I liked Twisted Sister. He, apparently a Dokken fan who didn't understand the phrase he was about to use, replied "What!? Dokken's no match for Twisted Sister!"
He meant the opposite. But it was hilarious for me at the moment, because I was like, uh, yeah. I know. That's what I am saying.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Aug 5, 2020 18:20:59 GMT
I'll probably at least add Tooth & Nail and Under Lock and Key to my collection eventually.
I always thought Don's voice was pretty unique in that era in that he wasn't really a big belter unlike a lot of the male singers on the scene. I read an article a few years ago saying that was actually detrimental to them being bigger than they should've been, and maybe there's some truth to that. After all, with their knack for melody, coupled with Lynch's guitar work, they probably should've been bigger.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Aug 5, 2020 18:42:03 GMT
I'm not sure what their real problem was. I might relisten to some of their old stuff just to refresh my memory, the way I did with KISS, Whitesnake and Poison (among others) over the past year.
My first inclination is: - Chemistry issues between Dokken and Lynch, who famously seemed to fight and break up basically every album. - Lack of a really strong sex appeal component, particularly from Dokken. Lynch was always a good looking guy and increasingly was ripped, but in the era of the Jon Bon Jovis, David Lee Roths, Sebastian Bachs, David Coverdales, Don Dokken just didn't live up on that end.
I also think their real shot musically would have been in the mid 80s, before the late 80s with the real pop influence on metal. Just stylistically that seems to be when they'd have fit best. And I guess that was their peak, but their peak just wasn't much of one.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Aug 5, 2020 19:20:01 GMT
I'm not sure what their real problem was. I might relisten to some of their old stuff just to refresh my memory, the way I did with KISS, Whitesnake and Poison (among others) over the past year.
My first inclination is: - Chemistry issues between Dokken and Lynch, who famously seemed to fight and break up basically every album. - Lack of a really strong sex appeal component, particularly from Dokken. Lynch was always a good looking guy and increasingly was ripped, but in the era of the Jon Bon Jovis, David Lee Roths, Sebastian Bachs, David Coverdales, Don Dokken just didn't live up on that end.
I also think their real shot musically would have been in the mid 80s, before the late 80s with the real pop influence on metal. Just stylistically that seems to be when they'd have fit best. And I guess that was their peak, but their peak just wasn't much of one.
I think the second problem you pointed out had more to do with it. Plus, even though music videos were still a relatively new media, Dokken's videos were pretty bad. Maybe that's one of the reasons that they were somewhat lost in the shuffle. That, and despite some really strong songs with good choruses, they never really came up with anything that really grabbed the public's attention like Round and Round, Livin on a Prayer, Home Sweet Home, or Nothin' But a Good Time. So, they were always sort of in that second tier when it came to groups of that era. Maybe with Lynch, they were slightly too heavy for the pop metal fans, but not heavy enough for the headbangers.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Aug 5, 2020 20:11:22 GMT
Rockin’ with Dokken, pt. 1: Tooth and Nail This is Dokken’s second album, but the first one the band really meant to release as-is, as their 1982 debut Breaking the Chains was recorded with the understanding the material was demos. A label later remixed and released it.
If you want to find fault with Tooth and Nail, start here: it sounds as if it were mixed by Don Dokken with the goal of annoying everyone else in the band. If Dokken’s vocals are pushed up to a 10 on the faders, Lynch’s guitars are around 6, Mick Brown’s drums are around 3, and Jeff Pilson’s bass, well, you just have to take it on faith that it’s present most of the time. Making matters worse, the drums and bass you do hear are neutered of their presence and bottom end.
And this is a shame because the material and performances are actually quite good for the genre and the time. Dokken weren’t a band of virtuosos—even the one they had, Lynch, kept his shredding largely tasteful and within the context of melodic songs—but the riffs and refrains were certainly better than average on songs like the title track, “Just Got Lucky” and “Alone Again.”
Don Dokken himself is an adequate, but not especially powerful or charismatic lead vocalist. There are moments, especially when he isn’t trying to imitate the cliches of the day but just singing within himself, in which his appeal shines through. But often it is cliche after cliche, a strangely dead-seeming, emotionless by-numbers performance. Even what is presumably meant as his showcase, the power ballad “Alone Again,” is more a showcase for Lynch’s dynamic solo than Dokken’s meant-to-be-sensitive lead vocal.
Dokken (the band, not the man) on this album, though, is like Dokken eternally: not quite heavy metal, not quite pop metal. Perhaps nowhere is this more awkwardly apparent than on “Heartless Heart,” which tries every metal trick in the book: big dumb drum-and-riff to open; similar moment (with seemingly triggered samples in the drums) in the breakdown before out-of-place, almost Van Halenesque background vocals appear behind Dokken’s voice before they work back into the verses. It’s a Frankenstein’s monster of an attempt at mainstream success.
“Into the Fire,” while a better song, is another example of a kitchen-sink approach. After Lynch’s solo, the out-of-place, heavily processed harmony group vocals return, phasing out—literally, with a phaser effect—and culminating in an apparent (but thin, weak sounding) explosion.
The production mishaps are not only disappointing, but somewhat surprising: Tom Werman, who produced hit albums for Cheap Trick, Twisted Sister, Motley Crue, and Poison among others in the ‘80s, was the producer; and Roy Thomas Baker, best known for his work with Queen, was an associate producer. Michael Wagener, who worked with several of the aforementioned bands as well as Alice Cooper, Ozzy Osbourne, and Extreme, mixed the album (and thus is guilty of the offenses jokingly credited to Don Dokken himself above).
Overall the songs are mediocre, frankly. The riffs are solid, the melodies and refrains are at times strong. But too often it feels as if nobody in the band could be bothered (or had the ability) to really put together the basic building blocks in a finished, interesting way.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Aug 6, 2020 12:14:15 GMT
I learned something today. I did not know that Roy Thomas Baker was involved. Sounds like a case of too many cooks in the kitchen.
I'm a bigger fan of the material overall, as I think a lot of the songs off T&N and Under Lock and Key are very strong. But, I think the fact that they were so stuck in between metal and pop metal didn't do them any favors. Personally, I think at their best, Dokken were better than a lot of more popular bands from that era, Ratt and Quiet Riot come to mind (not that I don't like them).
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Aug 6, 2020 12:26:03 GMT
Quiet Riot especially, for me, is one of those bands where you really only need the hits.
Ratt, I'd have to think more carefully about. I think they had stronger songs, but I'd have to relisten and think hard.
|
|
|
Post by kds on Aug 6, 2020 12:30:13 GMT
Quiet Riot especially, for me, is one of those bands where you really only need the hits.
Ratt, I'd have to think more carefully about. I think they had stronger songs, but I'd have to relisten and think hard.
I think Ratt and Quiet Riot were pretty good bands, but I think, unlike Dokken, both were able to release songs that really hit a chord with rock audiences at the time.
|
|
|
Post by Kapitan on Aug 6, 2020 12:32:46 GMT
They both certainly had stronger hits: their best songs were better than Dokken's best songs. But the reason I'd need to listen is, I need to reconsider their deeper cuts especially--particularly for Ratt. (I don't think I really need to do that with Quiet Riot. I think my recollection on them is pretty strong. There I think it is a very high peak and a very significant dropoff.)
|
|
|
Post by kds on Aug 6, 2020 12:38:49 GMT
They both certainly had stronger hits: their best songs were better than Dokken's best songs. But the reason I'd need to listen is, I need to reconsider their deeper cuts especially--particularly for Ratt. (I don't think I really need to do that with Quiet Riot. I think my recollection on them is pretty strong. There I think it is a very high peak and a very significant dropoff.) To be honest, I don't really think I agree that Ratt's or Quiet Riot's best songs were better than Dokken's. Personally, I'd take Into the Fire, Paris is Burning, or In My Dreams over Round and Round, Way Cool Jr, or Metal Health. I just think that QR and Ratt managed to have a little more commercial appeal. I haven't listened to them in a long time, but as I recall, even Quiet Riot's strong album - Metal Health - has more than its fair share of weak spots in it. There's a reason they needed to tap an old Slade song to get noticed.
|
|