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Post by beachboystalkmatt on Aug 14, 2023 13:13:53 GMT
Hello friends,
If interested, please join us tomorrow night as we break down the Beach Boys 1992 Album Summer in Paradise. To me it is the most polarizing album in their vast catalogue. Greg will play through all the songs. See you tomorrow night at 8 EST on Facebook or Youtube.
What are your thoughts on the album?
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 14, 2023 13:17:46 GMT
Polarizing? I think it's just about as unanimous in its reputation as is Pet Sounds ... just in the opposite direction. I can't say I have heard all that much polarization about it, as very, very few people seem to like it. It is impressive to me just in terms of how bad Mike's judgment was in leading that effort. The worst album in the group's catalog by quite a bit, which is saying something.
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Post by beachboystalkmatt on Aug 14, 2023 13:41:54 GMT
Polarizing? I think it's just about as unanimous in its reputation as is Pet Sounds ... just in the opposite direction. I can't say I have heard all that much polarization about it, as very, very few people seem to like it. It is impressive to me just in terms of how bad Mike's judgment was in leading that effort. The worst album in the group's catalog by quite a bit, which is saying something. Maybe polarizing is not the correct term. To me, it seems like just as it is accepted that BB fans love Pet Sounds, BB fans have to hate Summer in Paradise. When Greg and I say we like some of the songs on it we get a lot of comments. That is what I mean I suppose. I think it is ok to like the album or find some happiness in it while listening. I will say a lot of it is bad. Anyway, should be a fun discussion tomorrow night!
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Post by kds on Aug 14, 2023 13:48:35 GMT
I do think Summer in Paradise is a pretty bad Beach Boys album, but I think it does have some highlights. I think Lahaina Aloha, Slow Summer Dancin', and Forever '92 are very enjoyable tracks. I also think the cover of Hot Fun in the Summertime, Still Surfin, Strange Things Happen, and the title track are decent.
But, when SIP is bad, it's really bad.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 14, 2023 17:31:02 GMT
What are your thoughts on the album? - Like a lot of things in The Beach Boys' history, they didn't learn from their mistakes. In 1976, the group was very popular and decided to a release a "new" album that was comprised of half oldies and half newies. How did that work out? There's plenty of blame to go around for the failure of 15 Big Ones, but what was learned from that debacle? Well, if you look at Summer In Paradise...nothing! The Beach Boys were coming off the success of a #1 single with "Kokomo", a decent hit with "Wipe Out", and an album (Still Cruisin') that was stupid but bought 'em time. So, what does Mike decide to push for and the band agree to? Another album of half oldies/re-recordings and half newies that was a critical and commercial disaster. Brilliant move.
- Oh, how the mighty have fallen...in this case Terry Melcher. This was a guy who produced The Byrds' first two albums, produced several hit records for Paul Revere & The Raiders, and who actually produced some decent records with The Beach Boys including "Kokomo" and "California Dreamin'". Simply, his production of Summer In Paradise was unacceptable.
- Thank you to Brian Wilson for not contributing any songs (and/or producing them). Appreciate it. What was it with those Wilsons and boycotting albums (Surf's Up, M.I.U. Album, Summer In Paradise)? Did Brian cash his check?
- All of the above being said, the vocals on Summer In Paradise are excellent. Actually, it's one of Carl Wilson's strongest albums vocally, but it usually isn't mentioned because of the weak material he had to work with. I wonder why Carl didn't contribute any of his songs? Overall, Mike, Al, and Bruce sing very well, too.
- There are a couple of decent songs on the album - "Lahaina Aloha", "Summer In Paradise", "Strange Things Happen", maybe "Still Surfin'", "Hot Fun In The Summertime" isn't terrible. I don't mind "Forever" as much as many do; Carl's vocal is tremendous. I think their selection of oldies wasn't that bad, but the execution of them was.
- Summer In Paradise is easily the group's worst album, but Still Cruisin' is close.
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Post by lonelysummer on Aug 14, 2023 19:38:04 GMT
What are your thoughts on the album? - Like a lot of things in The Beach Boys' history, they didn't learn from their mistakes. In 1976, the group was very popular and decided to a release a "new" album that was comprised of half oldies and half newies. How did that work out? There's plenty of blame to go around for the failure of 15 Big Ones, but what was learned from that debacle? Well, if you look at Summer In Paradise...nothing! The Beach Boys were coming off the success of a #1 single with "Kokomo", a decent hit with "Wipe Out", and an album (Still Cruisin') that was stupid but bought 'em time. So, what does Mike decide to push for and the band agree to? Another album of half oldies/re-recordings and half newies that was a critical and commercial disaster. Brilliant move.
- Oh, how the mighty have fallen...in this case Terry Melcher. This was a guy who produced The Byrds' first two albums, produced several hit records for Paul Revere & The Raiders, and who actually produced some decent records with The Beach Boys including "Kokomo" and "California Dreamin'". Simply, his production of Summer In Paradise was unacceptable.
- Thank you to Brian Wilson for not contributing any songs (and/or producing them). Appreciate it. What was it with those Wilsons and boycotting albums (Surf's Up, M.I.U. Album, Summer In Paradise)? Did Brian cash his check?
- All of the above being said, the vocals on Summer In Paradise are excellent. Actually, it's one of Carl Wilson's strongest albums vocally, but it usually isn't mentioned because of the weak material he had to work with. I wonder why Carl didn't contribute any of his songs? Overall, Mike, Al, and Bruce sing very well, too.
- There are a couple of decent songs on the album - "Lahaina Aloha", "Summer In Paradise", "Strange Things Happen", maybe "Still Surfin'", "Hot Fun In The Summertime" isn't terrible. I don't mind "Forever" as much as many do; Carl's vocal is tremendous. I think their selection of oldies wasn't that bad, but the execution of them was.
- Summer In Paradise is easily the group's worst album, but Still Cruisin' is close.
Mike explained it all in that infamous Goldmine interview back in 1992. He wasn't happy with Still Cruisin'...too many cooks in the kitchen..."it was supposed to be Beach Boys songs that were featured in movies...but then Al Jardine wants a song on the album...it wasn't from a movie....Brian and Landy have a song on there that's not in a movie..." So Mike asked to have total control (with Terry) on SIP. He viewed it as the perfect soundtrack to summer. Bruce got one song on there because he's joined at the hip with Mike; Carl got to sing, but no songwriting, almost no Al. Mike got what he wanted, and of course it tanked. Mike's ego was out of control with the success of "Kokomo". Brian wasn't even on speaking terms with the band at the time of SIP. And after the way he talked about them in his book (yeah, I know, Landy's book), I can't blame them. That said, I like SIP a lot better today than I did 30 years ago.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 14, 2023 20:15:05 GMT
- Like a lot of things in The Beach Boys' history, they didn't learn from their mistakes. In 1976, the group was very popular and decided to a release a "new" album that was comprised of half oldies and half newies. How did that work out? There's plenty of blame to go around for the failure of 15 Big Ones, but what was learned from that debacle? Well, if you look at Summer In Paradise...nothing! The Beach Boys were coming off the success of a #1 single with "Kokomo", a decent hit with "Wipe Out", and an album (Still Cruisin') that was stupid but bought 'em time. So, what does Mike decide to push for and the band agree to? Another album of half oldies/re-recordings and half newies that was a critical and commercial disaster. Brilliant move.
- Oh, how the mighty have fallen...in this case Terry Melcher. This was a guy who produced The Byrds' first two albums, produced several hit records for Paul Revere & The Raiders, and who actually produced some decent records with The Beach Boys including "Kokomo" and "California Dreamin'". Simply, his production of Summer In Paradise was unacceptable.
- Thank you to Brian Wilson for not contributing any songs (and/or producing them). Appreciate it. What was it with those Wilsons and boycotting albums (Surf's Up, M.I.U. Album, Summer In Paradise)? Did Brian cash his check?
- All of the above being said, the vocals on Summer In Paradise are excellent. Actually, it's one of Carl Wilson's strongest albums vocally, but it usually isn't mentioned because of the weak material he had to work with. I wonder why Carl didn't contribute any of his songs? Overall, Mike, Al, and Bruce sing very well, too.
- There are a couple of decent songs on the album - "Lahaina Aloha", "Summer In Paradise", "Strange Things Happen", maybe "Still Surfin'", "Hot Fun In The Summertime" isn't terrible. I don't mind "Forever" as much as many do; Carl's vocal is tremendous. I think their selection of oldies wasn't that bad, but the execution of them was.
- Summer In Paradise is easily the group's worst album, but Still Cruisin' is close.
Mike explained it all in that infamous Goldmine interview back in 1992. He wasn't happy with Still Cruisin'...too many cooks in the kitchen..."it was supposed to be Beach Boys songs that were featured in movies...but then Al Jardine wants a song on the album...it wasn't from a movie....Brian and Landy have a song on there that's not in a movie..." So Mike asked to have total control (with Terry) on SIP. He viewed it as the perfect soundtrack to summer. Bruce got one song on there because he's joined at the hip with Mike; Carl got to sing, but no songwriting, almost no Al. Mike got what he wanted, and of course it tanked. Mike's ego was out of control with the success of "Kokomo". Brian wasn't even on speaking terms with the band at the time of SIP. And after the way he talked about them in his book (yeah, I know, Landy's book), I can't blame them. That said, I like SIP a lot better today than I did 30 years ago. Two things:
1. I know that Summer In Paradise was Mike's "baby", and that he was the driving force behind it. But it never should've come to that. The project had to be approved via a vote in the first place. Mike couldn't just...dictate...album projects. The guys should've said to Mike, "no way" or "we ain't doing that" and voted him down. Obviously they didn't, and I refuse to excuse them. This happens too much in Beach Boys' history. Mike is ultimately blamed for a poor/questionable decision - and he should share some of the blame - but it took more than Mike's visions or ideas to get things approved. Either the guys didn't care or didn't have the energy or were just in it for money or all of that - and simply "rubberstamped" it or maybe even abstained. If the other guys - Brian, Carl, and Al - didn't have the guts or caring to shut down Mike's bad ideas, then they are just as much to blame as Mike.
2. I didn't want to mention poor management again but I will. Yes, I realize Brian's relationship with the group was at a crossroads around the time of Summer In Paradise. Doctors, attorneys, associates, and Brian himself were not helping matters. Brian has stated, though, that Mike's lawsuit against him (for songwriting credits) was not personal. The relationship was improved to some extent shortly after Summer In Paradise wasn't it? I just find it hard to believe that not one person (a manager/management) couldn't sit down with Brian and the group and work things out to have him (Brian) contribute to the album. Did they try? Call me naive...
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Post by lonelysummer on Aug 16, 2023 4:13:51 GMT
Mike explained it all in that infamous Goldmine interview back in 1992. He wasn't happy with Still Cruisin'...too many cooks in the kitchen..."it was supposed to be Beach Boys songs that were featured in movies...but then Al Jardine wants a song on the album...it wasn't from a movie....Brian and Landy have a song on there that's not in a movie..." So Mike asked to have total control (with Terry) on SIP. He viewed it as the perfect soundtrack to summer. Bruce got one song on there because he's joined at the hip with Mike; Carl got to sing, but no songwriting, almost no Al. Mike got what he wanted, and of course it tanked. Mike's ego was out of control with the success of "Kokomo". Brian wasn't even on speaking terms with the band at the time of SIP. And after the way he talked about them in his book (yeah, I know, Landy's book), I can't blame them. That said, I like SIP a lot better today than I did 30 years ago. Two things:
1. I know that Summer In Paradise was Mike's "baby", and that he was the driving force behind it. But it never should've come to that. The project had to be approved via a vote in the first place. Mike couldn't just...dictate...album projects. The guys should've said to Mike, "no way" or "we ain't doing that" and voted him down. Obviously they didn't, and I refuse to excuse them. This happens too much in Beach Boys' history. Mike is ultimately blamed for a poor/questionable decision - and he should share some of the blame - but it took more than Mike's visions or ideas to get things approved. Either the guys didn't care or didn't have the energy or were just in it for money or all of that - and simply "rubberstamped" it or maybe even abstained. If the other guys - Brian, Carl, and Al - didn't have the guts or caring to shut down Mike's bad ideas, then they are just as much to blame as Mike.
2. I didn't want to mention poor management again but I will. Yes, I realize Brian's relationship with the group was at a crossroads around the time of Summer In Paradise. Doctors, attorneys, associates, and Brian himself were not helping matters. Brian has stated, though, that Mike's lawsuit against him (for songwriting credits) was not personal. The relationship was improved to some extent shortly after Summer In Paradise wasn't it? I just find it hard to believe that not one person (a manager/management) couldn't sit down with Brian and the group and work things out to have him (Brian) contribute to the album. Did they try? Call me naive...
What I got out of Mike's comments was kind of an "I told you so" attitude; after years of doing things democratically and seeing only limited success, Mike took the success of "Kokomo" as an excuse to grab total control, and maybe Al and Carl let him have his way just to shut him up. I don't know where Al's head was at in 1991-92, but Carl was already working with Gerry Beckley and Robert Lamm. It's clear that's where his heart was.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 16, 2023 12:14:48 GMT
What I got out of Mike's comments was kind of an "I told you so" attitude; after years of doing things democratically and seeing only limited success, Mike took the success of "Kokomo" as an excuse to grab total control, and maybe Al and Carl let him have his way just to shut him up. I don't know where Al's head was at in 1991-92, but Carl was already working with Gerry Beckley and Robert Lamm. It's clear that's where his heart was. At that point, I believe we'd be shortly after Mike tried to oust Al from the group (speaking of Mike thinking "Kokomo" somehow justified him taking full control). I do think you're right about Carl: I get the impression he was using the Beach Boys as his day job more than his band, his creative outlet, by this time. Frankly it seems to me like he gave up, but without fully giving up (i.e., quitting). And there are obvious financial reasons why he'd take that approach. While I agree with you, lonelysummer, that Mike does seem to have felt justified by "Kokomo," it's very funny to me that this is the case. One song--a #1 hit, granted, but one song ... cowritten by several other people; produced by someone else; heavily bolstered by its placement in a movie with the top popular actor in the world at that moment. It was a fluke hit, not the product of a mastermind's plan. Not to diminish what successes Mike did contribute to through the years, but I don't know if anyone has ever so consistently claimed he understands what is commercial while failing to get real commercial success. Sorry, Mike, but the common thread through the band's success (minus that one song) is Brian D. Wilson, not the latest lyric to say the band is still havin' fun fun fun and excitations as they catch a wave with the surfer girls.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Aug 16, 2023 12:38:02 GMT
Through the years I read in several places - articles, books, message boards - how, in the later years of the band (the late 80s and 90s), Carl Wilson might've given in, given up, and couldn't muster whatever it took to stand up to a lot of the typical bullsh-- in the band, especially Mike's ideas. And, I don't know what bothers me more - whether it was the truth or whether writers/fans are just erroneously speculating. Maybe it's a little of both. See, this was Carl Wilson, the guy who left the band in the early 1980s for a few years for several reasons - most that had to do with effort and quality. This was Carl Wilson, who demanded perfection on stage. This was Carl Wilson, who might've been the one Beach Boy most behind the Steve Levine "sound change"/approach in 1985. I don't know...can a guy change? And I'm not talking about his struggle with cancer and how that might've affected him. I just mean, Carl seems like the last Beach Boy who would've compromised his talent, his vision, and his integrity. Why? For what? Because he didn't want to...argue? Debate? Plead his case? At a meeting? Do what he thought was right? For the integrity of The Beach Boys? And, against whom? That no-talent, non-musician, lawsuit-chasing Mike Love? And I say that last comment facetiously, but I'm still confused and disappointed that Carl didn't take more stands. He did in 1994(?) when he walked away from a potential, new, BW-involved/produced album.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 16, 2023 12:41:50 GMT
I just mean, Carl seems like the last Beach Boy who would've compromised his talent, his vision, and his integrity. This gets me back on my hobby-horse of how I think big fans' impressions of the characters of the Beach Boys can interfere with observations or assessments of what happened with the Beach Boys. The character of Carl Wilson might seem like the last ... but the reality is that for the last decade of his life, he was writing songs more or less exclusively for an outside project while going through the motions with the Beach Boys, performing at a high level and even lending his great voice to idiotic new Love/Melcher music.
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Post by lonelysummer on Aug 17, 2023 3:45:26 GMT
I just mean, Carl seems like the last Beach Boy who would've compromised his talent, his vision, and his integrity. This gets me back on my hobby-horse of how I think big fans' impressions of the characters of the Beach Boys can interfere with observations or assessments of what happened with the Beach Boys. The character of Carl Wilson might seem like the last ... but the reality is that for the last decade of his life, he was writing songs more or less exclusively for an outside project while going through the motions with the Beach Boys, performing at a high level and even lending his great voice to idiotic new Love/Melcher music. Above all, I think Carl desired for everyone to be at peace with each other. Where that lead him in the end, apparently, was to just go along with whatever was offered to the group. With one exception. Yeah, it's a bummer that the guys couldn't get it together one last time in the studio to make a real Beach Boys record, instead of just doing what was essentially a Mike Love solo album with BB vocals on it, or a country tribute album. I've always wondered what would have happened if Like A Brother had been completed while Carl was alive? Would he have taken a leave of absence again to promote the album? Would the Beach Boys have included a couple of the songs in their shows?
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 17, 2023 12:30:57 GMT
I've always wondered what would have happened if Like A Brother had been completed while Carl was alive? Would he have taken a leave of absence again to promote the album? Would the Beach Boys have included a couple of the songs in their shows? Good questions. Historically they had some solo material sprinkled into shows, so they might have let him have one during Beach Boys shows. I doubt he'd get many, if any, more than that, though. But would he have taken a leave of absence? I wonder. I actually like to think he would have. I think it would have been good for him to flex his musical muscles again in a less toxic environment. But I have no idea whether they had any intentions of being a working unit that would hit the road versus just a recording project. It is notable that they had a relatively small cadre of musicians on those songs, though. A single bassist (Jason Scheff, who was in Chicago from 1985 onwards) was on everything; only two drummers; and a few keyboardists and guitarists. And one of the keyboardists, Phil Galdston (currently a professor of songwriting and music business for NYU, formerly same at Berklee), co-wrote over half of the songs. Point being, there may have been guys thinking of themselves as a working unit, a real band.
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Post by lonelysummer on Aug 17, 2023 19:13:58 GMT
I've always wondered what would have happened if Like A Brother had been completed while Carl was alive? Would he have taken a leave of absence again to promote the album? Would the Beach Boys have included a couple of the songs in their shows? Good questions. Historically they had some solo material sprinkled into shows, so they might have let him have one during Beach Boys shows. I doubt he'd get many, if any, more than that, though. But would he have taken a leave of absence? I wonder. I actually like to think he would have. I think it would have been good for him to flex his musical muscles again in a less toxic environment. But I have no idea whether they had any intentions of being a working unit that would hit the road versus just a recording project. It is notable that they had a relatively small cadre of musicians on those songs, though. A single bassist (Jason Scheff, who was in Chicago from 1985 onwards) was on everything; only two drummers; and a few keyboardists and guitarists. And one of the keyboardists, Phil Galdston (currently a professor of songwriting and music business for NYU, formerly same at Berklee), co-wrote over half of the songs. Point being, there may have been guys thinking of themselves as a working unit, a real band. And with a small group like that, it may have been possible to do a tour of small venues, like Carl did back in 1981.
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Post by Kapitan on Aug 17, 2023 20:47:36 GMT
Oh, I am sure they could have lined up a tour if they wanted to, either "slumming it" in clubs or even opening for other artists (as Carl also did in the early 80s, didn't he? Doobie Bros or something?)
A group could've been as simple as:
Carl Wilson - Vocals and guitar Gerry Beckley - Vocals and guitar Robert Lamm - Vocals and keyboards Phil Galdston - Keyboards, vocals Jason Scheff - Bass, vocals Jimmy Hunter or Sandy Merendino - Drums
Of course, they also could have gotten others, but that was a core group apparently throughout Like a Brother material. (No idea how they split drumming duties, if it was a relatively even split or one guy only did a single tune, or what. I do see Hunter is quite an accomplished session drummer, though. His credits list is a mile long, from the Village People to Flo & Eddie to Ray Manzarek, etc.)
Quite a set list they could have put together, too! If I were them, my biggest fear would be setting the Like a Brother songs up against their more famous bands' catalogs.
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