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Post by B.E. on Jun 24, 2023 20:38:15 GMT
I also think that Dennis sung "Mona" better than Brian would have. Not that I wouldn't have liked Brian singing it (and, yes, I've heard and enjoy the demo), but he wasn't putting much care into his vocals. Ooh, now you might have lost me. I think in that period we hear an engaged Brian sometimes, and a less engaged Brian sometimes. Had he been really into "Mona," I think a lead from him would've been fantastic. Much better than what we have. That said, I like what we have. Perhaps, but it's not so much a matter of being engaged as it is concentrating on what you're singing. Sometimes, during that period, Brian being engaged...being playful...works. But other times I think it (arguably) ends up being too 'loose'. Not that Dennis was a sure thing during that era! And I fully acknowledge that I'm a bigger fan of Dennis' gruff voice than most, but with "Mona" I hear both an engaged/playful performance, but also a 'tight' performance. Odds are Brian wouldn't have delivered on both fronts. Not only was he not a perfectionist at the time (as we all know), but he was sort of purposefully imperfect. Dennis didn't have that attitude. He tried to sing on-point. I also think Dennis pulls off the 'rugged voice' better than Brian does (although, again, not that I dislike it!). Honestly, normally I'm defending Brian's singing during this era, but in the case of "Mona" - and commenting on who should have sung it - I'm inclined to stick with Dennis.
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Post by B.E. on Jun 24, 2023 20:51:21 GMT
The wild thing is Carl was probably the worst singer in the group on Love You (and Adult/Child). Some fans have given him a lot of credit for being the "mixdown producer" on Love You, but couldn't/shouldn't he have used the opportunity to re-record some of his vocals? Especially the bridge of "I'll Bet He's Nice" where he rather amazingly zapped nearly all of the excitement from what is otherwise one of the most exciting moments on the album.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 24, 2023 20:55:00 GMT
The wild thing is Carl was probably the worst singer in the group on Love You (and Adult/Child). Some fans have given him a lot of credit for being the "mixdown producer" on Love You, but couldn't/shouldn't he have used the opportunity to re-record some of his vocals? Especially the bridge of "I'll Bet He's Nice" where he rather amazingly zapped nearly all of the excitement from what is otherwise one of the most exciting moments on the album. Isn't that period generally regarded as Carl's low point, when his health and substance abuse issues really interfered with his performance? But yeah, I hear you. It's crazy hearing him and not considering him a highlight of the songs.
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Post by B.E. on Jun 24, 2023 21:09:04 GMT
The wild thing is Carl was probably the worst singer in the group on Love You (and Adult/Child). Some fans have given him a lot of credit for being the "mixdown producer" on Love You, but couldn't/shouldn't he have used the opportunity to re-record some of his vocals? Especially the bridge of "I'll Bet He's Nice" where he rather amazingly zapped nearly all of the excitement from what is otherwise one of the most exciting moments on the album. Isn't that period generally regarded as Carl's low point, when his health and substance abuse issues really interfered with his performance? But yeah, I hear you. It's crazy hearing him and not considering him a highlight of the songs. Yes, it is. It's just something I was confronted with and pondered as I listened again this week. He doesn't actually sing that much on the album. And I'm a pretty big fan of his lead on "Let Us Go On This Way", and I enjoy the tag of "Airplane", so... But he's also got an all-time lowlight on "Johnny Carson", IMO. And "The Night Was So Young" could have been much better (but somehow works just enough). I also thought about how the production, and vocals, sound noticeably better on 15 Big Ones. Not across the board, and far from flawless, but I did wonder how Love You might have turned out if it were produced in the same fashion as 15 Big Ones. Fuller arrangements, some better vocals in spots, just a bit more professionalism...just a thought! On one hand, I like that they're different. I like Love You exactly how it is, including the stripped down/low-fi aspect of it. But it is interesting to think about. And I do think there's some equating of both albums among fans, particularly in the vocal department, that I don't think that's quite accurate. I think, overall, Brian, Carl, and Al sung better on 15 Big Ones. Conversely, I think Mike and (certainly) Dennis had better performances on Love You.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Jun 24, 2023 21:31:14 GMT
B.E., while we're both fans of 15 Big Ones and The Beach Boys Love You, I basically disagree with almost everything you've posted.
- You considered "Talk To Me" and "A Casual Look". I think they are two of the weakest songs on 15 Big Ones, and with an alternate tracklist, might be the first two to go.
- With "Mona", I have not noticed a healthy appreciation from fans, Brian's or Dennis's or others'. While there hasn't been an overabundance of Love You songs appearing on BB comps through the years, there have been some, but I can't remember seeing "Mona".
- No, I don't think Dennis liked much of the same music as Brian did, though I have no proof of it. Their Beach Boys' and solo songs were somewhat different, too, weren't they ("Melt Away" excepted )?
- I have never heard/read Dennis Wilson praising Phil Spector.
- I don't find Dennis singing 'Brian' lines on "Mona" fun. They sound awkward to me. Another one..."Enough, enough, enough of going steady". Dennis Wilson going steady?
- I don't think Dennis sung "Mona" better than Brian would have. Despite my comments, I really do like "Mona", but it's precisely Dennis's vocal which detracts from the song for me. Dennis's strength, especially later in his career, was never fast(er) songs. Again, I think with the lyrics, Brian would've personalized the song more and made it more meaningful, even more fun.
- I agree - yes, we agree! - that Carl wasn't, shall I say, overly strong on Love You, but he wasn't the worst singer in the group on the album. That would be Dennis and Brian (who turned in some of the worst vocals of his 62 year-old career). I think that, for most fans who do not like Love You, it's not the songwriting but the production and especially the vocals. I have seen the term "ragged" used occasionally, and that falls on Dennis and Brian. I would describe Carl Wilson's vocals on "Let Us Go On This Way", "Roller Skating Child", "Johnny Carson", "The Night Was So Young", "I'll Bet He's Nice", and "Airplane" as fine. Even good. Strong in places. Certainly better than Dennis and Brian.
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Post by B.E. on Jun 24, 2023 22:23:02 GMT
B.E., while we're both fans of 15 Big Ones and The Beach Boys Love You, I basically disagree with almost everything you've posted.
- You considered "Talk To Me" and "A Casual Look". I think they are two of the weakest songs on 15 Big Ones, and with an alternate tracklist, might be the first two to go.
- With "Mona", I have not noticed a healthy appreciation from fans, Brian's or Dennis's or others'. While there hasn't been an overabundance of Love You songs appearing on BB comps through the years, there have been some, but I can't remember seeing "Mona".
- No, I don't think Dennis liked much of the same music as Brian did, though I have no proof of it. Their Beach Boys' and solo songs were somewhat different, too, weren't they ("Melt Away" excepted )?
- I have never heard/read Dennis Wilson praising Phil Spector.
- I don't find Dennis singing 'Brian' lines on "Mona" fun. They sound awkward to me. Another one..."Enough, enough, enough of going steady". Dennis Wilson going steady?
- I don't think Dennis sung "Mona" better than Brian would have. Despite my comments, I really do like "Mona", but it's precisely Dennis's vocal which detracts from the song for me. Dennis's strength, especially later in his career, was never fast(er) songs. Again, I think with the lyrics, Brian would've personalized the song more and made it more meaningful, even more fun.
- I agree - yes, we agree! - that Carl wasn't, shall I say, overly strong on Love You, but he wasn't the worst singer in the group on the album. That would be Dennis and Brian (who turned in some of the worst vocals of his 62 year-old career). I think that, for most fans who do not like Love You, it's not the songwriting but the production and especially the vocals. I have seen the term "ragged" used occasionally, and that falls on Dennis and Brian. I would describe Carl Wilson's vocals on "Let Us Go On This Way", "Roller Skating Child", "Johnny Carson", "The Night Was So Young", "I'll Bet He's Nice", and "Airplane" as fine. Even good. Strong in places. Certainly better than Dennis and Brian.
I think 15 Big Ones was my introduction to both "Talk to Me" and "A Casual Look" and I like both songs very much. I think they're cool songs. I also like elements of the production and performances of both. I used to be an even bigger fan of "A Casual Look" until Mike's doubletracked lead - and how loudly it's mixed - started to bother me a little. I was actually thinking this week, if I had ONE opportunity to remix a Beach Boys song, that's the one I'd choose!! I'm not sure why you're assuming - with no proof - that Dennis didn't like much of the same music Brian did. They grew up together, sung together, were in a band together, and so on. We know Dennis liked the 50s harmony groups, the Beatles in the 60s, etc. Sure, in the 70s they probably weren't listening to the same stuff, but the formative years are what's important. And what people write and what they listen to are typically fairly different. To a degree, I don't think you can go by that. I wanna say that I have heard of Dennis praising Phil Spector, but I can't recall where. It's just that not a great deal has been written about Dennis and his influences, unfortunately. As for the comments about vocal performances and quality...we sometimes hear Beach Boys vocals very differently. That is something I've noticed in our various discussions. Sometimes, it just completely flies in the face of what I'm hearing and I really can't wrap my head around it!
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Post by carllove on Jun 25, 2023 1:11:07 GMT
I also think that Dennis sung "Mona" better than Brian would have. Not that I wouldn't have liked Brian singing it (and, yes, I've heard and enjoy the demo), but he wasn't putting much care into his vocals. Ooh, now you might have lost me. I think in that period we hear an engaged Brian sometimes, and a less engaged Brian sometimes. Had he been really into "Mona," I think a lead from him would've been fantastic. Much better than what we have. That said, I like what we have. Even though Dennis’ 1977 vocals wasn’t always the best - I really like his vocal on Mona (along with the production of the song), but I can see where an “engaged” vocal by Brian, could have made the song even better. Still - I really only listen to 15 Big One’s and Love You because I need to do a poll, or give my opinions on this board. I remember hearing “Everyone’s In Love With You” on the third CD of SOS in my car, and I swear I had never heard it before. I loved it. I was quite disappointed when I found out it was about the Maharishi. I really thought it was a great song about a girl. Still listen to it in my car. It’s between “The Warmth of The Sun” and “All This is That”. For some reason, the sequencing of songs on the expanded SOS makes me happy and feel like I’m hearing songs new again out of the album sequencing. It’s so much better than the Pandora BB channel.
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Post by jk on Jun 25, 2023 9:38:31 GMT
Haha, well I've just withdrawn my four Love You votes as not befitting what I consider to be an outsider album. My remaining four are for "It's O.K.", "Susie C", "ITSOTN" and "JOIML". Which Love You tracks are your favorite, JK? Call me eccentric, but I regard Love You as the Boys' stab at Outsider Music, where value judgements simply don't apply. If pressed though, I might mention "Johnny Carson" primarily for that one cymbal smash just after 1:40, the strange clanging sounds in the chorus of "Solar System" and, as the most satisfying track, "I Bet He's Nice". But only if pressed.
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Post by Kapitan on Jun 25, 2023 10:57:34 GMT
Which Love You tracks are your favorite, JK? Call me eccentric, but I regard Love You as the Boys' stab at Outsider Music, where value judgements simply don't apply. If pressed though, I might mention "Johnny Carson" primarily for that one cymbal smash just after 1:40, the strange clanging sounds in the chorus of "Solar System" and, as the most satisfying track, "I Bet He's Nice". But only if pressed. And call me eccentric, but I reject the concept of a type of music where value judgements don't apply. All art is to be judged. It can be judged differently under different circumstances, but art that can't be judged is just blackmailing the listener/viewer/etc.
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Post by B.E. on Jun 25, 2023 13:31:46 GMT
Thanks for participating. 10 voters cast 100 votes.
Top 10 Songs of 1976-1977
It's OK (8 votes) Susie Cincinnati (8 votes) The Night Was So Young (7 votes) Rock and Roll Music (6 votes) Mona (5 votes) I'll Bet He's Nice (5 votes) Palisades Park (4 votes) Back Home (4 votes) Let Us Go On This Way (4 votes) Roller Skating Child (4 votes) Johnny Carson (4 votes) Good Time (4 votes)
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Post by B.E. on Jun 25, 2023 15:24:00 GMT
15 Big Ones had 47 votes vs 43 for Love You. Considering 15 Big Ones has one more track, the average vote per track is nearly identical. Love You's votes were more evenly distributed.
I wouldn't say I'm surprised by these results, but you'll typically see Love You much higher on album rankings than 15 Big Ones and receiving much more favorable critical reviews. Not that the reviews aren't mixed, but are 15 Big Ones? Or is that one more or less universally criticized and dismissed. Context over music strikes again?
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
Posts: 520
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Post by Emdeeh on Jun 25, 2023 19:20:26 GMT
I think it's a function of comparing these two albums. 15 Big Ones seems to be considered a middling album (at least that's the way I see it), but Love You is a very polarizing album for BB fans (we either love it or hate it, not much middle ground). So if some of us don't vote for any of LY's tracks, we'll be voting for 15BO tracks by default.
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Post by lonelysummer on Jun 25, 2023 19:39:52 GMT
When I finally got a copy of 15 Big Ones about 12 years ago, I found that I liked it a lot more than I expected to. It's still not one of my favorites - the weakest tracks IMO are mostly the oldies. Some of them are great songs (Blueberry Hill, Just Once in My Life) but how do you compare with Fats Domino (or Louis Armstrong) or the Righteous Brothers? Rock and Roll Music is okay, but honestly, the Beach Boys version doesn't hold a candle compared to Chuck Berry's original, or the Beatles version, for that matter. Love You, on the other hand, that I'm supposed to love because it's Brian. Yeah, it's strange, quirky Brian, but it's not Smile, Volume 2, or More Pet Sounds. It's the work of a damaged artist.
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