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Post by kds on Jul 21, 2023 13:38:28 GMT
carllove , my problem with RFK Jr is that he seems to pretty willingly promote things that are either just bad information or wild speculation: his anti-vaccine claims (which date back to well before the COVID vaccine--decades back) about them causing autism have been disproved repeatedly, but he keeps saying them. He also promotes the old "cell phones cause brain cancer" line, which is highly dubious. I appreciate his history in environmentalism, and do align with some of his political positions. But being so careless when speaking about things he's not an expert in, and things that have been pretty strongly refuted, makes me very leery about him. Like you, kds , I may vote 3rd party for president for the first time ever. And I realize that could potentially lead to the candidate I dread most (Trump, in this case) becoming president. What's odd is, I don't even hate Biden. I think he's too old, I fear him dying in office or being less than all there, I sense quite a bit of tension between his historical moderate liberalism and the younger Democratic trends of left progressivism, but I think a healthy Biden is actually tolerable. Despite conservative media, things are actually going relatively well in the country--certainly not some new hellscape that's unrecognizable from the previous president's term. For me, it is more that I am just sick of those parties. I hate how they operate. I hate how they divide. I hate that they exist to promote themselves, to raise money. I think they're both wildly corrupt. And a vote cast while holding your nose is still a vote cast: I don't think they give a damn whether you LIKE the person, as long as you support the person. I'm tired of it. If the election were today, I think I'd vote for Dr. Cornel West, who is way, way, way to my left and who has no chance whatsoever of winning. But I like him as a person, I fully believe he's intelligent, and I appreciate how he speaks to and about people. So it would be my protest vote. This, this, THIS. I'm sick of it too. I'm sick of the divide in this country, and both parties have contributed to said divide. Besides, I live in Maryland. You can count the electoral votes today for whatever Democrat nominee runs next November. My voting 3rd party will likely have no effect other than my being able to personally reconcile how I cast my vote.
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Post by B.E. on Jul 21, 2023 13:48:01 GMT
Which is why I think it’s imperative that voters make election reform a priority. A simple change like using some form of ranked choice voting is probably our best, most realistic, shot at a change that could really make a difference. We gotta do something. We need more options than the two party system allows.
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Post by B.E. on Jul 21, 2023 13:53:57 GMT
Like you, kds , I may vote 3rd party for president for the first time ever. I’m surprised you haven’t voted 3rd party before, Kapitan. I don’t know why, exactly, and I don’t mean anything by it, I’m just surprised!
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 21, 2023 13:58:37 GMT
Like you, kds , I may vote 3rd party for president for the first time ever. I’m surprised you haven’t voted 3rd party before, Kapitan. I don’t know why, exactly, and I don’t mean anything by it, I’m just surprised! I have, but not for president. In the end, I've always fallen into that same old trap with the presidential candidates (plus, it's not as if there's ever been a third-party candidate I was in love with).
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 21, 2023 14:53:44 GMT
Here is an example of what I really hate about conservatives' culture war/"antiwoke" campaigns, even though I have very consistently, vocally opposed the kind of identity-group focused (over individual-freedom focused) trends. Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, considered one of the most likely Republicans to win the presidential nomination if Trump falters or is imprisoned, is reportedly contemplating state legal action against Bud Light's parent company because "it decided to associate with 'radical social ideologies.'" Excessive state interference with businesses, whether public or private, strikes me as a very bad idea, particularly when that interference is obviously politically punitive. (Similar to his previous campaigns against Disney after their "wokeness" bothered him.) Both strong socialism/communism and fascism have shared what amounts to government takeovers of business and cultural life, using their power as a cudgel to restrict speech and direct industry. Most Americans historically have opposed this--both fascism and far-left socialism/communism. (To be clear, I don't mean what I'd call softer or milder socialist policies, the kinds of things we've had for over a century with Social Security, or Medicare, or general welfare programs, or even the kinds of things we see across Europe. Not "socialism" as Republicans mean it, i.e., everyone who isn't a libertarian or conservative! I mean things like Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism.) Most people think of America as a place where people should be free to live their lives as they want, including business owners (and people who don't want to invest in them don't have to); and those business owners are in effect each experimenting in a laboratory to see what works and what doesn't. That's what it means to have both a small-L liberal society and a capitalist economy. On the substance of it: I assume the legal theories will be along the lines of securities class actions and SEC administrative proceedings in which the plaintiffs argue that the defendant should have known their statements or behavior would hurt stock prices, and so they are responible for the stock price drops. The state pension fund, being very large and having a significant interest, would presumably be the named plaintiff. Or conversely, whatever the state's consumer financial protection agency is could force a proceeding. But I'm not sure in this instance how that would be so clear-cut: are progressive messages demonstrably harmful to big businesses? I'd have to guess NOT, considering the massive investment in Pride-themed and social justice-themed marketing in the past decade. If you believe in capitalism, then you'd have to assume this is a demonstration of the markets at work. Or, at worst, you would have to say it isn't clear which direction it would go (which puts it on par with most marketing: will it drive sales, or not? You don't know. If you did, all ad campaigns would be effective, and they are not). Many left-leaners favor strong government intervention. I tend to be a more left-libertarian--especially when we're talking about things like this, something of a bully pulpit to the extreme (as opposed to penalizing obvious criminality). This seems to be finding any excuse to punish "wokeness." I don't like it at all, just like I wouldn't like a left-leaning government to punish industries or companies it thinks are bad. (Say, Chik-Fil-A for being closed on Sundays or something.)
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Post by kds on Jul 21, 2023 17:44:55 GMT
It's funny you mention Bud Light, because it's one of the few lagers I won't drink unless it's the only option available, but now I even feel like my beer preference is a political statement.
Truth is, despite it being the first ever I ever drank on a regular basis way back when, I just don't like it. I feel it has very little flavor. I was at a Christmas Bazaar for my son's school last November, and they only had two choices - Bud Light and a local IPA. I ordered a Bud Light, and I drank it. My next beer was the IPA.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 26, 2023 12:20:43 GMT
In some unsurprising and unwelcome news, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy indicates the House might open an impeachment inquiry into President Biden, based on his son Hunter's business dealings in Ukraine.
I say unsurprising because the Democrats impeached Trump twice. Politicians and parties don't turn the other cheek, or say "oh, you're right to put us through that." They get even. It's all one big game of limbo, and I'd never bet that either side can't get just a little lower.
The merits of the allegations are at best very shaky. As far as I know, there is no new news on it, and so presumably the timing is just based on the primaries heating up. Trump's own DOJ, under his own AG, investigated this already in the lead-up to the 2020 election, and closed the investigation for lack of evidence of any wrongdoing. Other ongoing investigations related to Hunter Biden and Ukraine are reportedly set to conclude with him pleading guilty on some tax charges.
Don't get me wrong, Hunter Biden seems like a pretty deeply flawed, corrupt human being--the kind of politician's kid who you'd expect, and expect to hate. But I think it's a stretch to go from privileged, prostitute-renting drug abuser to international financial mastermind. Yes, his salary from Burisma is obviously absurd, and it obviously only went to him because his last name was Biden. (If you think the Trump, Clinton, Obama, Bush, or any other prominent political children are earning things the hard way, you're kidding yourself.) People earn huge dollars on their contacts, their access to important people. Major political figures' kids reap the rewards. That's the gross norm. (And I'll remind you that Trump didn't even truly back away from his companies, and made huge amounts of money peddling access to him.)
It doesn't seem impeachable at all. What's more, as long as Democrats control the Senate it's just going to be a repeat of the past two impeachments, with the Senate refusing to convict.
This is all a waste of time, just like the two Trump impeachments (whatever you may think of their merits) were a waste of time. I said then, and it seems to be coming true now, that it will be routine going forward for every House to impeach every president as long as they're of different parties.
Congrats to Republicans for lowering the bar in the ongoing limbo game.
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Post by carllove on Jul 26, 2023 14:51:15 GMT
In some unsurprising and unwelcome news, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy indicates the House might open an impeachment inquiry into President Biden, based on his son Hunter's business dealings in Ukraine. I say unsurprising because the Democrats impeached Trump twice. Politicians and parties don't turn the other cheek, or say "oh, you're right to put us through that." They get even. It's all one big game of limbo, and I'd never bet that either side can't get just a little lower. The merits of the allegations are at best very shaky. As far as I know, there is no new news on it, and so presumably the timing is just based on the primaries heating up. Trump's own DOJ, under his own AG, investigated this already in the lead-up to the 2020 election, and closed the investigation for lack of evidence of any wrongdoing. Other ongoing investigations related to Hunter Biden and Ukraine are reportedly set to conclude with him pleading guilty on some tax charges. Don't get me wrong, Hunter Biden seems like a pretty deeply flawed, corrupt human being--the kind of politician's kid who you'd expect, and expect to hate. But I think it's a stretch to go from privileged, prostitute-renting drug abuser to international financial mastermind. Yes, his salary from Burisma is obviously absurd, and it obviously only went to him because his last name was Biden. (If you think the Trump, Clinton, Obama, Bush, or any other prominent political children are earning things the hard way, you're kidding yourself.) People earn huge dollars on their contacts, their access to important people. Major political figures' kids reap the rewards. That's the gross norm. (And I'll remind you that Trump didn't even truly back away from his companies, and made huge amounts of money peddling access to him.) It doesn't seem impeachable at all. What's more, as long as Democrats control the Senate it's just going to be a repeat of the past two impeachments, with the Senate refusing to convict. This is all a waste of time, just like the two Trump impeachments (whatever you may think of their merits) were a waste of time. I said then, and it seems to be coming true now, that it will be routine going forward for every House to impeach every president as long as they're of different parties. Congrats to Republicans for lowering the bar in the ongoing limbo game. Maybe you should listen to Ben Shapiro's podcast from yesterday. It might change your mind about Biden's impeachment being a stretch. You don't get that information on CNN or MSNBC. Biden has sold out this country to the Chinese. It is 10X worse than anything that Trump or Nixon has done. It is treason. He is a lying, evil man, who has made his fortune by peddling his influence to our enemies, to the detriment of this country. I hope he rots in hell.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 26, 2023 14:57:03 GMT
I'll listen now--I've just started it--but I think it's very important to consider that Ben Shapiro isn't objective reporting, either: he's a conservative news-focused entertainer, no different than Rachel Maddow, etc., except with the converse audience. Their jobs are always to find ways to inflame situations so people will separate the "us" from the "them." It's a bad idea to reject one side's media but believe the other's, and even more so to do that with famous political commentators.
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Post by carllove on Jul 26, 2023 15:04:53 GMT
I'll listen now--I've just started it--but I think it's very important to consider that Ben Shapiro isn't objective reporting, either: he's a conservative news-focused entertainer, no different than Rachel Maddow, etc., except with the converse audience. Their jobs are always to find ways to inflame situations so people will separate the "us" from the "them." It's a bad idea to reject one side's media but believe the other's, and even more so to do that with famous political commentators. Shapiro seems to be more intelligent than Rachel Maddow, but his recent ranting on about the Barbie movie is too much for me. He does that with abortion as well, so I have to turn him off. This situation is important enough for me to pay attention though.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 26, 2023 15:09:20 GMT
I'll listen now--I've just started it--but I think it's very important to consider that Ben Shapiro isn't objective reporting, either: he's a conservative news-focused entertainer, no different than Rachel Maddow, etc., except with the converse audience. Their jobs are always to find ways to inflame situations so people will separate the "us" from the "them." It's a bad idea to reject one side's media but believe the other's, and even more so to do that with famous political commentators. Shapiro seems to be more intelligent than Rachel Maddow, but his recent ranting on about the Barbie movie is too much for me. He does that with abortion as well, so I have to turn him off. This situation is important enough for me to pay attention though. I can't speak to their relative brainpower. I've never been a regular Maddow viewer/listener. I did spend some significant time (a couple of years, roughly 2016-19) listening to Shapiro regularly because I thought it was only fair to keep listening to conservative messaging. I think projecting the image of the smart guy is a big part of Shapiro's brand, though: talking fast, referencing his own education constantly, etc. It's part of his schtick: "I'm smart!" And I'm sure he is. He's making a fortune selling conservatism, after all. But smart isn't the same as honest, or objective, or thorough. (I'm not saying he's DIShonest, not any more than anybody else in the same industry. I absolutely will say he is not objective, and absolutely is not thorough, meaning his stories aren't ever going to be fair to different perspectives. I've heard enough of him to know he give straw-man versions of liberal, progressive, etc., perspectives and then tears those down, which is the same tactic liberals use on their channels.)
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 26, 2023 15:30:11 GMT
I have to add a little aside here, not about substance but style. This is one thing I hate about our news-entertainment culture. As Shapiro blows through his story, he says "yesterday, the White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre, the world's most untalented press secretary, said..."
That shit is so childish, and so tedious, and it poisons the well. It poisons the well for Shapiro's fans to ever take seriously anything said by "the other side" because he's constantly making them seem not just wrong, but ludicrous or evil; and it poisons the well for his critics to ever take him seriously because they can see he's just name-calling like a junior high schooler. If you can't report or analyze news without childish name-calling, you're just not up to the job. Unfortunately, since this is news entertainment, not real news, it's par for the course. It's presumably a big part of what makes Shapiro popular. And yes, I think there is more than enough of that garbage on all sides: I'm just pointing out Shapiro's example because that's who I'm listening to right now.
But really, think about it. If I say, "Donald Trump, a blathering idiot nobody should take seriously, offered this explanation...," would any fan of mine take seriously whatever Trump offered as an explanation? Would any critic of mine ever take me seriously in anything I say?
Poisonous culture.
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Post by carllove on Jul 26, 2023 16:04:14 GMT
I have to add a little aside here, not about substance but style. This is one thing I hate about our news-entertainment culture. As Shapiro blows through his story, he says "yesterday, the White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre, the world's most untalented press secretary, said..." That shit is so childish, and so tedious, and it poisons the well. It poisons the well for Shapiro's fans to ever take seriously anything said by "the other side" because he's constantly making them seem not just wrong, but ludicrous or evil; and it poisons the well for his critics to ever take him seriously because they can see he's just name-calling like a junior high schooler. If you can't report or analyze news without childish name-calling, you're just not up to the job. Unfortunately, since this is news entertainment, not real news, it's par for the course. It's presumably a big part of what makes Shapiro popular. And yes, I think there is more than enough of that garbage on all sides: I'm just pointing out Shapiro's example because that's who I'm listening to right now. But really, think about it. If I say, "Donald Trump, a blathering idiot nobody should take seriously, offered this explanation...," would any fan of mine take seriously whatever Trump offered as an explanation? Would any critic of mine ever take me seriously in anything I say? Poisonous culture. I think it's hilarious, because she is truly horrible. Shapiro has jumped off the Trump train, so I love that. He was one of the first.
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Post by Kapitan on Jul 26, 2023 16:35:32 GMT
I hate it, partly because they're all pretty much by definition terrible, but mostly because it's just intentionally confrontational and divisive. Honestly, the entire position is literally just Minister of Propaganda to begin with, so we ought not be too fond of any of them. (Anthony Scaramucci, anyone?) I hate that anyone gets behind any of them, as "Paid State Liar" isn't exactly an admirable profession.
I'm not understanding the relationship of that to Shapiro's Trump relationship, though. Though it was interesting watching him go from an apparent never-Trumper, to solidly pro-Trump, to off the Trump bandwagon (if he is--I haven't listened to him much in a couple years). The cynic in me would say he's just adjusting to political realities around him, making sure he's "speaking for/to" the conservative majority of the moment.
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Post by carllove on Jul 26, 2023 17:10:29 GMT
I hate it, partly because they're all pretty much by definition terrible, but mostly because it's just intentionally confrontational and divisive. Honestly, the entire position is literally just Minister of Propaganda to begin with, so we ought not be too fond of any of them. (Anthony Scaramucci, anyone?) I hate that anyone gets behind any of them, as "Paid State Liar" isn't exactly an admirable profession. I'm not understanding the relationship of that to Shapiro's Trump relationship, though. Though it was interesting watching him go from an apparent never-Trumper, to solidly pro-Trump, to off the Trump bandwagon (if he is--I haven't listened to him much in a couple years). The cynic in me would say he's just adjusting to political realities around him, making sure he's "speaking for/to" the conservative majority of the moment. Literally has to be the worst job ever! At least Shapiro recognizes that Trump is not the best choice for the Republican Party. Wish some of the other talking heads would move on. I get why some folks are still on the Trump Train - but they need to be on the winning side - and Trump has too much baggage and is unlikeable. I was really hoping Desantis would pick up steam, but I hate his 6 week abortion cut off and his new Social Security proposal, so now I'm looking at Scott and Ramaswamy.
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