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Post by Kapitan on Jan 31, 2024 20:25:32 GMT
I thought it might be fun to post a poll that ties in to the latest Good Timin' Podcast episode (as posted by jmayer43), which is based on Brian Wilson's early period collaborators Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Tony Asher, and Van Dyke Parks. You know them, so I won't post massive tomes on each. But just some highlights: Gary Usher worked with Brian Wilson from the very beginning, with songs placed on the first five studio albums. The highest charting of those was "In My Room," which peaked at 23. He also co-wrote "409," "Lonely Sea," and "Pom Pom Play Girl," as well as a small handfull of others (mostly on the Surfin Safari album). Usher also had a relatively successful career outside of his Wilson collaborations. He also wrote with Wilson later, in an era not covered here. Roger Christian worked with Brian Wilson beginning with the second album, Surfin USA, and continuing through the fifth. His contributions increased as Usher's decreased, but they mostly appeared on those same albums. His highest-charting collaboration was "Little Deuce Coupe," at #15, but he also co-wrote the hits "Shut Down" (#23) and "Don't Worry Baby" (#24). Non-singles included "The Ballad of Old Betsy," "Car Crazy Cutie," "Cherry Cherry Coupe," and several others. Christian also co-wrote for Jan & Dean, including hits like "Dead Man's Curve" and "The Little Old Lady from Pasadena." Tony Asher worked with Brian Wilson exclusively on one album during this period, Pet Sounds. Which is quite an album! The biggest hit is "Wouldn't It Be Nice" (#8), while "God Only Knows" hit #39. He also co-wrote most of the remainder of the album: "You Still Believe In Me," "That's Not Me," "Don't Talk (Put Your Head on My Shoulder)," "Here Today," "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times," and "Caroline, No." Asher worked primarily in advertising, and while he did some other songwriting collaborations, it was not a major part of his career. He did write with Wilson again after the time being covered here. Van Dyke Parks also worked with Wilson on just one album in this period--and it wasn't even released! It, of course, is Smile, and a handful of those songs were released on the substitute Smiley Smile in 1967, while others trickled out on subsequent albums. The highest charting of these songs was "Heroes & Villains," which peaked at #12. The only other Wilson/Parks collaboration to chart was outside of this period, "Sail On Sailor," nearly a decade later. But they did cowrite some classic and brilliant songs including "Cabinessence," "Vega-Tables," "Surf's Up," and "Wonderful." Which of these contributors do you think helped Brian Wilson and the band create the best music? Be sure to tune in to the GT pod to hear their thoughts.
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AGD
Denny's Drums
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Likes: 21
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Post by AGD on Jan 31, 2024 22:36:09 GMT
So... where's Mike? The poll title doesn't say "outside collaborators".
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 31, 2024 22:44:59 GMT
So... where's Mike? The poll title doesn't say "outside collaborators". The post clearly indicates that the poll is based on the new Good Timin' podcast episode. That episode is about those four collaborators. It is pretty clear that the point is they're outside collaborators. If the thread/poll is based on the podcast episode, it stands to reason that whether it's explicit or not, it's about those four outside collaborators. I truly don't enjoy this, but you really make it hard for me to avoid... You consistently, whether under your normal handle or your previous "secret" accounts, don't participate in threads in any meaningful way. All you do is nitpick or argue semantics. Parachute in to correct people, often over totally insignificant things that aren't the real point in the first place. Where are your posts in these various ratings, polls, and threads that are actually substantive contributions? Your opinions, your preferences, your knowledge? It's radio silence until somebody says something incorrect, then you chime in like some stern schoolmarm. You have so much Beach Boys knowledge, so much to say, and yet it's as if you go out of your way to be unlikable. It's so frustrating! I'm not a hater. I'm not some partisan about the various boards. I'm just here for a good time, and I have it, but I don't begrudge anyone anywhere else their preferences. I try to keep any negativity to myself, because it's truly just a waste of time. So to try to spin it positively: I would truly love for you to actually participate in this board like a regular person. Please, just be nice.
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Post by Kapitan on Jan 31, 2024 22:47:59 GMT
I'm struggling between Asher and Parks, by the way. All four of the named collaborators had some remarkable moments, there's no question about that. And it's possible that Roger Christian's "Don't Worry Baby" is the best of the bunch.
But it's also possible that Asher's "Wouldn't It Be Nice" is the best. And Parks, quirky and occasionally annoying as he may be, can't be denied as a brilliant writer, as evidenced by "Heroes and Villains" "Surf's Up," "Wonderful," and "Cabinessence," in particular.
So I need to think about it a bit before trying to weigh in. I also look forward to listening to the new pod that inspired the thread.
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Post by kds on Feb 1, 2024 0:21:36 GMT
Even if Gary, Roger, and Van Dyke have credits on some great songs, its hard for me to go against the collaborator of Brian's greatest achievement - Pet Sounds.
So, my vote goes to Tony Asher.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 1, 2024 1:42:31 GMT
It's very hard for me to not recognize Gary Usher. He might not have the volume of credits, but he might've been the most important. He was around during Brian's songwriting formative years. I'm sure Brian learned a lot from him. And, when you look at "In My Room", "Lonely Sea", and "409". Oh, my.
I'm not slighting Roger Christian; just look at his credits! I don't know very much about cars, but I guess Roger did an excellent job with his car lyrics. The standout parts of those songs, however, were Brian's contributions. The music. And that's what really makes those songs. Did Roger contribute to the music?
I have to confess that I'm not the biggest Van Dyke Parks fan. I think I respect his talent more than I enjoy it. By just listening to his songs, you can't help but hear his brilliance. And, I don't doubt at all that he...inspired...Brian. There's just something about Van Dyke's lyrics/songs that keep me from totally enjoying the song. It's not that I don't get or understand the lyrics. They just don't touch me. I don't know if that makes sense. I'll listen to "Surf's Up" and be blown away by Brian's melody, arrangement, and vocal. And then there's lyrics that...don't blow me away.
I guess that leaves Tony Asher. I like all of his songs and all of his lyrics. They do reach me. A lot. And, in reading Brian's interviews over the years, he did at least assist in making some of the music. Make no mistake, his principle job was as the lyricist, but I can't help but think Brian benefited greatly - musically - by working with Tony. Vote goes to Asher.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 1, 2024 14:45:58 GMT
I've voted--I'm the lone vote for Parks--but I could easily imagine myself switching to Asher.
A lot of people say they don't connect with Parks's lyrics, they aren't touched by them, they don't relate to them. That being the case, it's obvious why Asher would be the choice for those people. The cynical side of me would say that's where his advertising background was effective: the whole point is making people feel, not think. In advertising, it is either creating one of these feelings: "I am the kind of person who has this product," or "I want to be the kind of person who has this product (and maybe this product will make me that kind of person)." You might think I'm overly cynical to say this about Asher's lyrics ... and maybe I am. I'm not saying he was fully, consciously thinking like an ad-man when writing. I'm just saying that's a skill set that advertising professionals have, and that's what he was. So it makes sense that people see (or feel, really) themselves in the lyrics of Pet Sounds. He absolutely succeeded in his task.
Parks's lyrics are not so relatable. But they are sometimes wildly clever. They do make you think as well as feel, and maybe more than feel. It's Parks's lyrics that have sometimes made me literally giggle with glee at some image, some internal rhyme, some possible interpretation. They're sometimes more like a puzzle, and I find that a lot of fun. I relate to them in that way: not as a character in the songs, but as someone who appreciates wordplay. It's the rare lyricist to whom I relate in that way, and that's why I picked him. I think there are many more lyricists whose products are relatable on a basic level within the songs' narrative than there are those whose products are relatable on the level of shared joy/excitement in the art itself.
However, as I said to start the post, I very well might change my mind. They're just different ways of liking lyrics.
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Emdeeh
Pacific Coast Highway
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Post by Emdeeh on Feb 1, 2024 18:33:33 GMT
This could go in any direction for me, since I think they're mostly equals. My nod goes to Roger Christian, for his clever car lyrics.
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Post by jk on Feb 1, 2024 18:49:49 GMT
This could go in any direction for me, since I think they're mostly equals. My nod goes to Roger Christian, for his clever car lyrics. I'm torn between Roger and Tony, although all four are absolutely crucial to the direction taken by the BB's career. To be continued soon!
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jmayer43
Denny's Drums
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Post by jmayer43 on Feb 2, 2024 3:34:19 GMT
Thanks for shouting out the podcast! I won’t spoil it for anyone who hasn’t listened to the show yet but I definitely have a clear favorite out of the four collaborators we discussed.
Also in terms of my thoughts on Van Dyke, I feel Sheriff put it perfectly- I respect his talent more than I enjoy it. That being said he certainly had a way with words/wordplay, and on certain songs I think it works really great. (Especially Surf’s Up)
Hope everyone enjoys the show!
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Post by jk on Feb 2, 2024 8:38:26 GMT
I eventually opted for Tony, Brian's external collaborator at the time of the Boys' absolute peak. Of course, it's hard to imagine what course the BBs' career would have taken without any one of those four co-authors.
So if I understand correctly, Roger was the only one of these to work with Brian exclusively within those first six years...
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 2, 2024 12:34:02 GMT
So if I understand correctly, Roger was the only one of these to work with Brian exclusively within those first six years... I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean Roger didn't work with anyone except Brian during those years? If so, I am sure that's not correct: he worked with Jan & Dean, as well as with Gary Usher on a few beach/surfing movie songs.
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Post by Sheriff John Stone on Feb 2, 2024 13:51:10 GMT
I think what's eye-opening about this exercise, and something that has, of course, been mentioned/discussed before, is how many times in such a short period of time that Brian changed collaborators - especially when he had so much success with each. And you could also insert Mike Love in that equation.
Has there ever been a songwriter in the rock era who switched collaborators as much as Brian Wilson?
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Post by jk on Feb 2, 2024 14:26:21 GMT
So if I understand correctly, Roger was the only one of these to work with Brian exclusively within those first six years... I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean Roger didn't work with anyone except Brian during those years? If so, I am sure that's not correct: he worked with Jan & Dean, as well as with Gary Usher on a few beach/surfing movie songs. Ah yes -- sorry. I meant he's the only one who didn't work with Brian in later years in some capacity. At least that's what I inferred from your introduction.
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Post by Kapitan on Feb 2, 2024 14:35:26 GMT
I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean Roger didn't work with anyone except Brian during those years? If so, I am sure that's not correct: he worked with Jan & Dean, as well as with Gary Usher on a few beach/surfing movie songs. Ah yes -- sorry. I meant he's the only one who didn't work with Brian in later years in some capacity. At least that's what I inferred from your introduction. Ahhh, I see. I was thinking of the various ways your statement could be interpreted (I think it's a surprising number, not that you said anything wrong at all. Just one of those things where the simple words can go different directions. The "exclusively" could refer to the people, the time frame, etc.) In that case, I do believe you're right. At least, I am not aware of any subsequent collaborations between those two. Interesting catch there.
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